YEA..... Lebron Is Much Better

[.:DaYg0sTyLz:.]

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However, its also pretty hard to argue against MJ>Kobe, considering MJ was 6 for 6 in titles, won 6 finals MVPs, averaged more points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, AND played in an era where there was no handchecking called.   Furthermore, post players were bigger, and were allowed to stand in the key as long as they wanted on defense.   

Lets also not forget that MJ was also in an era with way less athleticism, where zone defense didn't exist, where the game was much slower, and where he never won over a defense like the Boston Celtics of this year...I mean, MJ's biggest competition on the perimeter was an aging Clyde Drexler LOL....as for the stats, MJ also averaged way more field goal and free throw ATTEMPTS than Kobe, so lets throw stats out this argument once and for all, because LeBron averages more rebounds, assists, and blocks on his career than MJ, and even has a better 3 point fg percentage, as well! . To say Kobe doesn't have a chance based on that is not only wrong, but a slap in the face to true basketball purists.......so lets sit tight and wait for the final outcome.

lol Jordan played in an era where the defenses were actually better for the most part lol. The thing is, most of those defenses were in his own conference. So his defensive hurdles were in the playoffs, not the finals. Those Knicks teams he played against would hurt this Celtics team...who were just as good as the Lakers this last year. Oakley, Mason, Ewing lol. Cmon. The rules over the years have been changed to HELP offense, we all know that. Its the same in damn near every sport since offense gets ratings. The league doesnt like to do too much to give us more defensive battles, they want 120-119 games. The league likes having teams play zone defense because it forces offenses to have better ball movement to score, and more three pointers. More three point shooting leads to more fast breaks, and higher scores. The league doesnt want a ton of scoring in the paint unless its dunk. This is why we see less and less "back to the basket" bigmen and more faceup guys. The zone makes playing with your back to the basket as a bigman more difficult. Basically, the zones help create a more uptempo game and benefit perimeter guys...and we all know the league LOVES to promote perimeter guys.

How are the Celtics as good as the Lakers when the Lakers won? LOL. you're something else...Jordan won rings over some great defensive teams, huh? the 90's Lakers with Divac as the anchor at center, amazing! The Phoenix Suns of the 90s, damn, who's ever faced defense like that? and lets not forget the Jazz and Sonics, holy shit, straight defensive oriented teams with amazing perimeter players to stop Jordan...LOL. Really, the toughest defense Jordan has ever faced was the Pistons of the 80s, and he wasnt able to beat them until they started aging. Offense is not at an all-time high, because winning teams are still always the ones who can play great defense...there will never be another player who averages 50 points for a season or a tripple-double, because offense is not the same as it used to be with all the youth, talent, and athleticism that EVERY team is stacked with nowadays. players, on average, are way more athletic nowadays, which is what forced the rule changes...zone defense also makes it a lot easier to stop players from going to the paint. that probably woulda been one of the main tactics used on Jordan, since his shot wasn't always so on-point and the zone gives up jumpshots. and again, nobody wants to acknowledge that Jordan's biggest rival on the perimeter was an aging Clyde Drexler.......then again, I'm speakin to someone who still thinks "Lebron>Kobe"

This years finals came down strictly to who had homecourt advantage. Whoever did, would have won the series. And if Perkins wasnt out, I (and many) think the Celtics would have taken game 7. They were two evenly matched teams.

And read my post again. I said the dominant defenses Jordan had to face were in the Eastern Conference PLAYOFFS, not the finals. Most of the dominant defensive teams of that era were in the East. Not the West. The Knicks teams he was beating would make this current Celtics team look soft. And yeah no one is gonna average 50 points/game...but no one was in Jordans era either lol. You are all over the place with your argument. What does averaging 50/game have to do with Jordan? Bottom line is Jordan did more, and was more efficient against better defenses and rules that werent so geared to helping out overall offense in a game. Players get more athletic as time goes on...but typically not a HUGE difference in a matter of just 10-15 years lol. Again, youre comparing Kobe to Jordan as if Jordan played in the 50's. And you have to be completely out of your mind if you think the NBA made the change to allowing zone defense...in order to KEEP slashers from getting into the paint lol. They wanted to speed the game up, and the zone can do that. Like I said, it forces teams to shoot a lot of outside jumpers which creates more fastbreaks...and increases the tempo of the games. This is good for your athletic players (like Kobe). So he has an advantage now that he wouldnt have had if he played in the mid 90's. Again, the main players the zone is hurting are back to the basket bigmen. It is much easier to double team out of a zone and you dont have to worry about the illegal defense. Hurting bigs in turn HELPS perimeter offensive players.

And what do u mean Jordans biggest rival? They werent rivals. Jordan didnt have ANY real rivals on an individual level because he was head and shoulders above anyone in the league. Including Malone, Barkley, Stockton, Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, Payton, Wilkins, etc...etc. Hell even Magic, Bird and Isaiah. You cant have a rivalry when no one is on your level. His rivalries were with TEAMS. The Knicks were his rivals. The Cavs were his rivals. Etc. Kobe has a rivalry with LeBron (not a real rivalry, just a media/fan created rivalry) because there is a debate as to which perimeter player is better.

[Sccit]

^Yea...and if Bynum never got injured, Lakers would be going on their 4th straight title led by Kobe now, which would already put him above Jordan..we could play the "if" game all day if you want. Bottom line, you cannot judge the outcome of greatness while you are in the midst of witnessing it.

[teecee]

^Yea...and if Bynum never got injured, Lakers would be going on their 4th straight title led by Kobe now, which would already put him above Jordan..we could play the "if" game all day if you want. Bottom line, you cannot judge the outcome of greatness while you are in the midst of witnessing it.

If Bynum wasn't injured in 2008, the Lakers woulda had a chance, but really, didn't they get beat by 46 or some shit, and also blow a huge lead in another game?   Bynu ain't THAT good.   


As for this year, Game 7 woulda been VERY interesting if Perkins played, don't you think?


NIK:   by ABOVE MJ, do you mean better, or just more titles?  Cuz Russell has more titles, and he isn't "above" Jordan...

[Sccit]

^Yea...and if Bynum never got injured, Lakers would be going on their 4th straight title led by Kobe now, which would already put him above Jordan..we could play the "if" game all day if you want. Bottom line, you cannot judge the outcome of greatness while you are in the midst of witnessing it.

If Bynum wasn't injured in 2008, the Lakers woulda had a chance, but really, didn't they get beat by 46 or some shit, and also blow a huge lead in another game?   Bynu ain't THAT good.   


As for this year, Game 7 woulda been VERY interesting if Perkins played, don't you think?


NIK:   by ABOVE MJ, do you mean better, or just more titles?  Cuz Russell has more titles, and he isn't "above" Jordan...

I already think that Kobe has at least reached Jordan's level in terms of skill and ability...so when he gets 7 titles, in my eyes, he will be above Jordan in terms of skill, ability AND accomplishments, which would put him above Jordan in general. Lakers woulda not blown that 24 lpoint ead in Game 4 of the '08 Finals with Bynum there, and woulda followed that game up with an easy victory in Game 5 had Bynum AND Ariza not been injrued...that's just as legit as saying Boston woulda won with Perkins...Hoenstly, though, my whole point was that we can sit here and play the "what if" game all day, but it's simply not worth it...

[teecee]

^Yea...and if Bynum never got injured, Lakers would be going on their 4th straight title led by Kobe now, which would already put him above Jordan..we could play the "if" game all day if you want. Bottom line, you cannot judge the outcome of greatness while you are in the midst of witnessing it.

If Bynum wasn't injured in 2008, the Lakers woulda had a chance, but really, didn't they get beat by 46 or some shit, and also blow a huge lead in another game?   Bynu ain't THAT good.   


As for this year, Game 7 woulda been VERY interesting if Perkins played, don't you think?


NIK:   by ABOVE MJ, do you mean better, or just more titles?  Cuz Russell has more titles, and he isn't "above" Jordan...

I already think that Kobe has at least reached Jordan's level in terms of skill and ability...so when he gets 7 titles, in my eyes, he will be above Jordan in terms of skill, ability AND accomplishments, which would put him above Jordan in general. Lakers woulda not blown that 24 lpoint ead in Game 4 of the '08 Finals with Bynum there, and woulda followed that game up with an easy victory in Game 5 had Bynum AND Ariza not been injrued...that's just as legit as saying Boston woulda won with Perkins...Hoenstly, though, my whole point was that we can sit here and play the "what if" game all day, but it's simply not worth it...

IS skill and ability all that matters?   What about results?!!!   7 titles will put Kobe above MJ in terms of accomplishments?   Fine, but then, is Kobe still chasing Russell?   Cuz we both know, aside from Kobe's 81 point game, Mamba has nothing on Jordan individually, and will still be trailing him 3 playoff MVP's.   

Plus, has Kobe had a GREAT finals yet?   How many GREAT finals games has he had?   

[Sccit]

so if Kobe gets 4 consecutive Finals MVP to Jordan's 3, that's not another individual accolade where Kobe 1-upped Jordan? come on, now...some of the arguments are just RIDICULOUS.

[Sccit]

As for this notion that Kobe hasn't had great final games...ha! lets start from the beginning. In 2000, Kobe got injured in Game 2 of the Finals vs. Indiana...he sat out Game 3 and Pacers took that game... the series was then 2-1 in favor of the Lakers, but there were two more games to go in Indiana. In Game 4, Shaq fouled out in the 4th and the game went to overtime...with the Pacers lookin to take control of the series by winning the game with Shaq out, Kobe took over and single-handedly won the game for the Lakers in OT with his clutch performance...AT THE AGE of 21! Lakers don't win that game, and they coulda very well lost the series....

Box Score:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200006140IND.html


How bout Game 2 of the '01 Finals? After Philadelphia stole the first game in overtime, Lakers were looking at going down 0-2 with 3 consecutive games to go in Philadelphia. Another classic 4th quarter performance, which coulda ultimately saved the Lakers. Again, Lakers don't win that game, and they coulda very well lost the series...Kobe was the game leader in points and minutes played for that game, and what age was he? twenty-fuckin-two.

Box Score:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200106080LAL.html

Now the series is tied 1-1 with three games to go in Philadelphia...Game 3: Kobe played 48 minutes, Shaq again fouls out, and Kobe leads the Lakers in scoring for that game which gives the Lakers a 2-1 lead...Not great?:

Box Score:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200106100PHI.html

Following game...an assist shy from a triple double:

Box Score:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200106130PHI.html

This one vs. New Jersey is pretty whack too..

Box Score:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200206090NJN.html

Game 1 of the 2009 Finals...Lakers set the tone against Orlando by showing dominance behind Kobe's game-leading 40 points, in which he more than doubled the point total of anyone else on the court, almost collecting a triple double in the process. I guess it's not great enough, though?

Box Score:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200906040LAL.html

Clinching game of the '09 Finals, who led the game in scoring? and more blocks than Dwight Howard? Ooohweee, dominating BOTH ends...but there's nothing great in leading the winning game of a championship series in offensive AND defensive stats...

Box Score:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200906140ORL.html

Game 1 of this years Finals...Who led the game in scoring? who set the tone? Yea, but there's nothing great about that....

Box Score:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201006030LAL.html

Game 3, with the series tied 1-1 and 3 games to go in Boston, who else but Kobe leads the game in offensive and defensive stats?

Box Score:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201006080BOS.html

Game 6, Lakers down 3-2, they lose this game, they go home...again, who else but Kobe is gunna lead the game in scoring?...and even in steals...and he even outrebounded everyone on the Celtics. At this point, Kobe was mentioned by analysts as a possible Finals MVP even if the Lakers lose! But the greatness is not there, is it?...LOL.

Box Score:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201006150LAL.html

...and I'm not even gunna include Game 7 in the great category, even though Kobe got it done on the boards when his shot wasn't falling, grabbing more rebounds than Jordan EVER did in a Finals game...but that's just one more stat he has on Jordan.


Honestly, though, do you feel stupid yet for saying Kobe hasn't been great in the Finals? LOL

[teecee]

I know you aren't calling Kobe's game 7 performance from this year great?   I mean, shooting 25% in the biggest game of the year?    ALso, you point out games where Kobe led the game in scoring, so it must have been great...isn't that what he is supposed to do???

NIK, I never said Kobe hasn't had a good GAME in the finals, but has he had a GREAT finals series?   NO.   Does he have a top 10, even top 20 finals performance (1 game or series) of all time?

[Chamillitary Click]

How was his Finals performance in 2006? lmfao.

[teecee]

How was his Finals performance in 2006? lmfao.

Word!


NIK even has a 10 for 29 game in there!


Yes, Kobe has had a few GREAT games in the finals, but, considering he's been in 7, where is his transcendant game like MJ and Magic had?     

Fact:   Kobe Bryant does NOT have a top 10 finals, or even a game in the top 10.

[Sccit]

So, I had a 10-29 FG game in there...whats your fucking point? why do feeble minded basketball fans think shooting percentage is the only major factor that plays into how great a player played?...do you realize how many more important facets their are to the game than how well a player shot the ball? especially at this level, and ESPECIALLY in a defensive-oriented series, where shooting percentages are clearly gunna be lower, all around...thats not to take away from Kobe's great performance, dominating the game on the defensive end in the pivotal game, and shutting Rondo down when it was clear no one else could guard him...and still led the game in scoring, along with 2 steals and 3 blocks...the game goes way beyond shooting stats, and Kobe was clearly great in that Game 3...I'm sure if he were playing the Sonics or Jazz in the Finals, his numbers in the Finals would skyrocket, but that's clearly not the case...still can't hold that against Kobe and say he hasn't been great, because he led his team and did what it takes to win, especially in the last 2, and that's greatness. As for Game 7, he DID dominate the game on the defensive end and killed it on the glass, even breaking a record in the process...but I didn't even put that game on the list, so I dunno what you're complaining about. LOL.

[Sparegeez]

The hardest question to ask yourself isn't How many ships will the heat win in 6 years.. It's what jersey should I get?! 3, 4, 6.... hmmm Imma go with 6 for six championships and 0 for Kobe and his dynasty being over.. solid