Pac & Dre

[Jimmy H.]

But it's happened before... Dre put out some weak ass beats, but the songs still got radio play and the albums still moved units because they label it as being Dr. Dre produced... i.e. Family Affair by Mary J. Blige, Hate in Yo Eyes by Mack 10, Break Ya Neck by Busta Rhymes, etc.

But the public responded to those records. That's where I'm going with this. Everybody brings different expectations to the table and yes, "mediocre product" can be saved by an established name but not everything Dre touches or puts his name on is a hit. It just doesn't happen like that.

[love33]

But you can't just manipulate the buying public overnight like that. If something is hot, it's hot. Gangsta rap had basically peaked. That business about the West outselling the East nearly twice over sounds a little suspect. Who besides Pac and Death Row was selling like that? Where's the numbers on this one?

Check the "Welcome To Death Row" DVD they even talk about the 2:1 sales advantage the West was havin over the East.  That advantage was from 92-97 during the West's dominance when you had 2Pac, Snoop, Dre, Too Short, Ice Cube, E-40, Luniz, WSCG, Dogg Pound, Mack 10 solo albums, Warren G, DJ Quik, Twinz, Foesum, Dove Shack, Eazy-E, Ant Banks, Richie Rich, The Outlawz, etc. These guys were all pumpin out big time numbers, and to give you an idea how well the West sold: The Twinz went Gold on "Conversation" and to compare that to today's numbers that Twinz album outsold Snoop's "Malice In Wonderland" by twice as many units.  That's how hot the West was during that era.

[bouli77]

U're trippin about Twinz, Foesum and DOve Shack. Dudes had major deals but their albums all flopped commercially-wise. and LOL Conversation NEVER went gold, I doubt it even reached 300,000. Foesum were as local as possible and the Dove Shack didn't score really big. Richie Rich was on Def Jam, he never even went gold. The Outlawz are not from the West, except for Young Noble and Syke (if you consider him part of the outlawz).

the west (and the south too actually) enjoyed their fair share of success, Gangsta rap and the gangsta image was hype through music and films. i think they outsold the east until 97 thanks mainly to the NWA legacy (Ruthless, Death Row, Cube, WSCG) and Too Short who was going platinum album after album. then, with No Way Out, Life After Death, Jay-Z's slew of albums, the east really took over and the South began really rising too with Master P (New Orleans period), Cash Money, 3-6-Mafia etc.

And it's not fair to compare today's sales with the 90's. the standards aren't the same. the internet and the recession changed the game. in the 90's an album like Recovery would have done the same numbers as a TLC album, 10x plat easily. and an album like Malice would have done platinum. if you take an album like Big Mike's Somethin' Serious or The Click's Game Related which both went gold. These albums would never go gold in these times and days.

[love33]

U're trippin about Twinz, Foesum and DOve Shack. Dudes had major deals but their albums all flopped commercially-wise. and LOL Conversation NEVER went gold, I doubt it even reached 300,000. Foesum were as local as possible and the Dove Shack didn't score really big. Richie Rich was on Def Jam, he never even went gold. The Outlawz are not from the West, except for Young Noble and Syke (if you consider him part of the outlawz)

then, with No Way Out, Life After Death, Jay-Z's slew of albums, the east really took over and the South began really rising too with Master P (New Orleans period), Cash Money, 3-6-Mafia etc.

I think you're underestimating the West prime I remember reading on two different sites how the Twinz "Conversation" was GOLD shit they had two hit singles "Round and Round" and "Eastside LB" plus they had Warren G pushin the album in his prime.  I think you underestimate the West by sayin they couldn't do those numbers today, they were droppin platinum and gold records all around.  The West was so huge you had artists like Domino, South Central Cartel, Kausion, MC Eiht, CMW, Ahmad, and others all sellin on top of the ones we both talked about it, and how could we both leave Coolio out that dude sold millions of records?

Jay-Z had 2 solo albums out that didn't sell but all of a sudden he got all the attention after the passing of Notorious B.I.G.  Jay-Z even said on his record "Too much West Coast dick lickin" on '22 Two's' cause the West was so huge.

[Jimmy H.]

Check the "Welcome To Death Row" DVD they even talk about the 2:1 sales advantage the West was havin over the East.  That advantage was from 92-97 during the West's dominance when you had 2Pac, Snoop, Dre, Too Short, Ice Cube, E-40, Luniz, WSCG, Dogg Pound, Mack 10 solo albums, Warren G, DJ Quik, Twinz, Foesum, Dove Shack, Eazy-E, Ant Banks, Richie Rich, The Outlawz, etc. These guys were all pumpin out big time numbers, and to give you an idea how well the West sold: The Twinz went Gold on "Conversation" and to compare that to today's numbers that Twinz album outsold Snoop's "Malice In Wonderland" by twice as many units.  That's how hot the West was during that era.

I have that DVD seen it a bunch of times but to just buy some exaggarated number that someone throws out in an interview as gospel is kind of reaching. I'm not denying that the West Coast was hot at that point. It's kind of undeniable but a lot of it was directly connected to Death Row, not the coast as a whole. But Death Row's downfall on the charts was easy to see. With Pac dead, Dre no longer playing a creative hand, Snoop on the way out, and Suge in prison, there was really nothing to sell the company anymore. It had its fanbase but as a brand, the names and faces that people connected to it were not a part of it anymore. You can push all these new artists all you want but you need something familiar to put the whole thing together. Snoop didn't become a star overnight. It took him being the featured artist on Deep Cover, being featured on all the singles and videos for The Chronic, have him making live performances with Dre at all the award shows, to really establish him as the "next big thing". Even then you had Dre popping it up in the video-song for "What's My Name" with his little "Rat-Tat-Tat-Tat" cameo to keep that connection going. The same way he did his "Slim Shady you a basehead" line for Em's intro. When Biggie died, Puffy was already exposed for so many years from showing up in videos and on magazine covers with Biggie and was already deep into his own plans for a solo career that he was able to keep his label afloat by moving into Biggie's spot and building his roster around that. Death Row didn't have that. When Pac came in, all the plans that they had with Rage and Dogg Pound were sidetracked so they could get Tupac out there and from a business position, it was probably the right move. But they built him up like crazy and when he died, there was no new star in the waiting who could step in. Five years is a long time to be on top. It was far less an elaborate plot by the media to destroy them as it was that they didn't have anything to follow up what they already built. There were talented guys over there but the reason "Chronic 2000" and "Dr. Dre Presents The Aftermath" both had average sales is because to anybody that's not a hardcore fan, you look at the guest list and the majority of the people on there you've never heard of. Most non-Death Row fans aren't gonna blow $25 on a double CD with two Tupac songs that aren't being promoted. The movie soundtracks had the movies to sell them. Everything else was just counted on to get its own buzz.

[V2DHeart]

Check the "Welcome To Death Row" DVD they even talk about the 2:1 sales advantage the West was havin over the East.  That advantage was from 92-97 during the West's dominance when you had 2Pac, Snoop, Dre, Too Short, Ice Cube, E-40, Luniz, WSCG, Dogg Pound, Mack 10 solo albums, Warren G, DJ Quik, Twinz, Foesum, Dove Shack, Eazy-E, Ant Banks, Richie Rich, The Outlawz, etc. These guys were all pumpin out big time numbers, and to give you an idea how well the West sold: The Twinz went Gold on "Conversation" and to compare that to today's numbers that Twinz album outsold Snoop's "Malice In Wonderland" by twice as many units.  That's how hot the West was during that era.

I have that DVD seen it a bunch of times but to just buy some exaggarated number that someone throws out in an interview as gospel is kind of reaching. I'm not denying that the West Coast was hot at that point. It's kind of undeniable but a lot of it was directly connected to Death Row, not the coast as a whole. But Death Row's downfall on the charts was easy to see. With Pac dead, Dre no longer playing a creative hand, Snoop on the way out, and Suge in prison, there was really nothing to sell the company anymore. It had its fanbase but as a brand, the names and faces that people connected to it were not a part of it anymore. You can push all these new artists all you want but you need something familiar to put the whole thing together. Snoop didn't become a star overnight. It took him being the featured artist on Deep Cover, being featured on all the singles and videos for The Chronic, have him making live performances with Dre at all the award shows, to really establish him as the "next big thing". Even then you had Dre popping it up in the video-song for "What's My Name" with his little "Rat-Tat-Tat-Tat" cameo to keep that connection going. The same way he did his "Slim Shady you a basehead" line for Em's intro. When Biggie died, Puffy was already exposed for so many years from showing up in videos and on magazine covers with Biggie and was already deep into his own plans for a solo career that he was able to keep his label afloat by moving into Biggie's spot and building his roster around that. Death Row didn't have that. When Pac came in, all the plans that they had with Rage and Dogg Pound were sidetracked so they could get Tupac out there and from a business position, it was probably the right move. But they built him up like crazy and when he died, there was no new star in the waiting who could step in. Five years is a long time to be on top. It was far less an elaborate plot by the media to destroy them as it was that they didn't have anything to follow up what they already built. There were talented guys over there but the reason "Chronic 2000" and "Dr. Dre Presents The Aftermath" both had average sales is because to anybody that's not a hardcore fan, you look at the guest list and the majority of the people on there you've never heard of. Most non-Death Row fans aren't gonna blow $25 on a double CD with two Tupac songs that aren't being promoted. The movie soundtracks had the movies to sell them. Everything else was just counted on to get its own buzz.

Good post

[bouli77]

I think you're underestimating the West prime I remember reading on two different sites how the Twinz "Conversation" was GOLD shit they had two hit singles "Round and Round" and "Eastside LB" plus they had Warren G pushin the album in his prime.  I think you underestimate the West by sayin they couldn't do those numbers today, they were droppin platinum and gold records all around.  The West was so huge you had artists like Domino, South Central Cartel, Kausion, MC Eiht, CMW, Ahmad, and others all sellin on top of the ones we both talked about it, and how could we both leave Coolio out that dude sold millions of records?

Jay-Z had 2 solo albums out that didn't sell but all of a sudden he got all the attention after the passing of Notorious B.I.G.  Jay-Z even said on his record "Too much West Coast dick lickin" on '22 Two's' cause the West was so huge.

i'm not underestimating anything, i never said the west wasn't hype at the timel. but it's unrealistic to think albums that went gold yesterday would go gold with today's standards. an album like Bun B''s TrillOG would have gone at least gold in the 90's, so far it has moved about 150,000 which is a very good number for today. Malice In Wonderland did 300,000 and it was still the 6th highest selling rap album of the year when in the 90's even a gold record wouldn't secure you the sixth spot. all i'm sayin is that you seem to exaggerate a lot about your favorite artists' sales and you take numbers you read on fansites for granted. Conversation certainly didn't go gold. South Central were rather big, but never sold much (according to Prode'je, N Gatz We Truss sold 600 k, but I highly doubt that and i've never seen any official source saying it went gold). Kausion were local as fuck, nobody outside us westcoast stans remembers them today, they must have sold 100,000 copies max of South Central Los Skanless (very good album nonetheless).

[Jimmy H.]

i'm not underestimating anything, i never said the west wasn't hype at the timel. but it's unrealistic to think albums that went gold yesterday would go gold with today's standards. an album like Bun B''s TrillOG would have gone at least gold in the 90's, so far it has moved about 150,000 which is a very good number for today. Malice In Wonderland did 300,000 and it was still the 6th highest selling rap album of the year when in the 90's even a gold record wouldn't secure you the sixth spot. all i'm sayin is that you seem to exaggerate a lot about your favorite artists' sales and you take numbers you read on fansites for granted. Conversation certainly didn't go gold. South Central were rather big, but never sold much (according to Prode'je, N Gatz We Truss sold 600 k, but I highly doubt that and i've never seen any official source saying it went gold). Kausion were local as fuck, nobody outside us westcoast stans remembers them today, they must have sold 100,000 copies max of South Central Los Skanless (very good album nonetheless).

Yeah, I kind of read some of what dude is saying and wonder if he was even into music back then because his recollection of events seems to clash to with what was real. Death Row was huge and really gave the West a shot in the arm but it's not like every artist that came out of California in the 90's was going platinum and getting major love from the radio and MTV.

I think you underestimate the West by sayin they couldn't do those numbers today, they were droppin platinum and gold records all around.

You're talking about a different time altogether. A good portion of those platinum and gold sales came from people buying audio tapes of albums to play in their boombox or their car's tape deck. If the West had the type of sales potential, these major labels would be all over it.

[Triple OG Rapsodie]

I think you're underestimating the West prime I remember reading on two different sites how the Twinz "Conversation" was GOLD shit they had two hit singles "Round and Round" and "Eastside LB" plus they had Warren G pushin the album in his prime.  I think you underestimate the West by sayin they couldn't do those numbers today, they were droppin platinum and gold records all around.  The West was so huge you had artists like Domino, South Central Cartel, Kausion, MC Eiht, CMW, Ahmad, and others all sellin on top of the ones we both talked about it, and how could we both leave Coolio out that dude sold millions of records?

Jay-Z had 2 solo albums out that didn't sell but all of a sudden he got all the attention after the passing of Notorious B.I.G.  Jay-Z even said on his record "Too much West Coast dick lickin" on '22 Two's' cause the West was so huge.

i'm not underestimating anything, i never said the west wasn't hype at the timel. but it's unrealistic to think albums that went gold yesterday would go gold with today's standards. an album like Bun B''s TrillOG would have gone at least gold in the 90's, so far it has moved about 150,000 which is a very good number for today. Malice In Wonderland did 300,000 and it was still the 6th highest selling rap album of the year when in the 90's even a gold record wouldn't secure you the sixth spot. all i'm sayin is that you seem to exaggerate a lot about your favorite artists' sales and you take numbers you read on fansites for granted. Conversation certainly didn't go gold. South Central were rather big, but never sold much (according to Prode'je, N Gatz We Truss sold 600 k, but I highly doubt that and i've never seen any official source saying it went gold). Kausion were local as fuck, nobody outside us westcoast stans remembers them today, they must have sold 100,000 copies max of South Central Los Skanless (very good album nonetheless).

Where are you getting these sales numbers?

[bouli77]

i'm only guessing for kausion and the twinz. bun-b has sold actually 129k, i read it here : http://thecustomblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/e40sales_Page_1.jpg. as for south central cartel, if i'm not mistaken, i read in an old prodeje interview that n gatz we truss had done 600k, but i never found any other source and the RIAA official website doesn't list it in its gold and platinum catalogue

[Triple OG Rapsodie]

i'm only guessing for kausion and the twinz. bun-b has sold actually 129k, i read it here : http://thecustomblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/e40sales_Page_1.jpg. as for south central cartel, if i'm not mistaken, i read in an old prodeje interview that n gatz we truss had done 600k, but i never found any other source and the RIAA official website doesn't list it in its gold and platinum catalogue

for Malice?

[OG Hack Wilson]

I think you're underestimating the West prime I remember reading on two different sites how the Twinz "Conversation" was GOLD shit they had two hit singles "Round and Round" and "Eastside LB" plus they had Warren G pushin the album in his prime.  I think you underestimate the West by sayin they couldn't do those numbers today, they were droppin platinum and gold records all around.  The West was so huge you had artists like Domino, South Central Cartel, Kausion, MC Eiht, CMW, Ahmad, and others all sellin on top of the ones we both talked about it, and how could we both leave Coolio out that dude sold millions of records?

Jay-Z had 2 solo albums out that didn't sell but all of a sudden he got all the attention after the passing of Notorious B.I.G.  Jay-Z even said on his record "Too much West Coast dick lickin" on '22 Two's' cause the West was so huge.

i'm not underestimating anything, i never said the west wasn't hype at the timel. but it's unrealistic to think albums that went gold yesterday would go gold with today's standards. an album like Bun B''s TrillOG would have gone at least gold in the 90's, so far it has moved about 150,000 which is a very good number for today. Malice In Wonderland did 300,000 and it was still the 6th highest selling rap album of the year when in the 90's even a gold record wouldn't secure you the sixth spot. all i'm sayin is that you seem to exaggerate a lot about your favorite artists' sales and you take numbers you read on fansites for granted. Conversation certainly didn't go gold. South Central were rather big, but never sold much (according to Prode'je, N Gatz We Truss sold 600 k, but I highly doubt that and i've never seen any official source saying it went gold). Kausion were local as fuck, nobody outside us westcoast stans remembers them today, they must have sold 100,000 copies max of South Central Los Skanless (very good album nonetheless).

according to a post here several months ago N Gatz We Trust sold 30 thousand copies lol

[love33]

i'm only guessing for kausion and the twinz. bun-b has sold actually 129k, i read it here : http://thecustomblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/e40sales_Page_1.jpg. as for south central cartel, if i'm not mistaken, i read in an old prodeje interview that n gatz we truss had done 600k, but i never found any other source and the RIAA official website doesn't list it in its gold and platinum catalogue

A Gold album doesn't have to be certified by the RIAA.  For example, Suge said those Chronic and Doggystyle albums sold more than what the RIAA has on them and also Kurupt's Tha Streetz Iz A Mutha is Gold but it's not certified.  If you don't send the paperwork in to the RIAA then it's not going to be certified and you have to keep getting it recertified as the album sells over time by sending in more paperwork.  Remember, Gold means 500k units, it doesn't mean the RIAA has to certify it, it just has to scan 500,000 units at stores and the internet to be Gold.  The RIAA is one organization, they aren't the definitive authority.

Also, according to wn.com: "....G Funk Era, the Twinz released their own debut album Conversation in 1995. .... It peaked at #3 on the Billboard charts and earned gold record status ..."

[Sir Petey]

the moms and pops record stores didnt have soundscans...at least not the one i worked at for years.

[Jimmy H.]

the moms and pops record stores didnt have soundscans...at least not the one i worked at for years.

They probably did.  You just weren't aware of it.