Phil Jackson finally compares Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant

[Hack Wilson - real]

Nash swept Kobe in the playoffs that year...he deserved MVP fair and square

[Hack Wilson - real]

how did Kobe deserve the 06-07 MVP??  Dirk lead his team to 67 wins.  Nash was also voted ahead of Kobe too.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2007.html#mvp



and 02-03 look at what KG did, HE truly deserved that MVP

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2003.html#mvp


23 points, 13.4 rebounds and 6 assists per game

[Sccit]

how did Kobe deserve the 06-07 MVP??  Dirk lead his team to 67 wins.  Nash was also voted ahead of Kobe too.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2007.html#mvp



and 02-03 look at what KG did, HE truly deserved that MVP

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2003.html#mvp


23 points, 13.4 rebounds and 6 assists per game

because kobe was still the more valuable player. the fact that he led a team consisting of kwame brown-smush parker-luke walton in the starting 5 to the playoffs in back-to-back seasons is astonishing in itself. dirk on those laker teams woulda had them at 20 wins, tops.

[M Dogg™]

Nash swept Kobe in the playoffs that year...he deserved MVP fair and square

HA

Actually it was a 7 game series, the Suns won a game with Kobe scoring 50 POINTS!

The next year, it was a 5 game series and Kobe scored 30+ in 3 out of 4 games, and the other game he basically protested his horrible teammates and kept passing the ball, Odom scored 17 and the next best scorer was Walton with 10, no one else in double digits.

Say what you will about Kobe, during those years, in those years, you couldn't mess with him. He was the best player in the league, many writers admit that now and they cite the rape trail as why he wasn't voted MVP those years. On the flip side, Nash was a good player but he was the "safest" MVP the league could have. He was open minded (he started talking about White Privilege in a majority black league), he had a family man image and he was liked all around. Sports writers admit it today, Kobe was robbed.

The 2003 year, Kobe was the best player in the game. It was given to Duncan. That's a bit more understandable than the Nash win. Kobe was the best player, Duncan was the best player on the best team. That comes into play in a close race. Garnett was up there too. Still, if Kobe didn't have Shaq, people would talk about how great he was.

Let's face it man, when you are arguing prime for prime, you are GREATLY mismatched trying to argue against Kobe. Kobe's best was only second to Jordan. (at least since the 60's) 2003 award was close, as the voting showed. But that was the year that Kobe, with Shaq taking huge numbers still, showed why he was the best player in the league. But when in doubt, they went best player on best team, which makes sense. 2006-2007 awards made NO sense. Kobe had a crap team, carried them to the playoffs, carried that dead weight center they had named... awe shit I forgot his name... to be a starting center for a playoff team even though he scored no more than 7 points in any game against the Suns. He carried Smush Parker to the playoffs. Kobe even made him better, as Parker was actually scoring 10ppg those two years, the only time he ever averaged over 2ppg.

Simply put, Kobe at his best was on some historic shit.

So I say again... Kobe>LeBron>Bird

[Hack Wilson - real]

you sound like an idiot m-frogg


wilt chamberlain's prime which consists of scoring 50 and 44 points for a whole season can't match kobe's?  


oscar robertson can't match kobe??   as I said before, Bird was the MVP for 3 straight years and Kobe was not.  You can try to rewrite history but Nash deserved those MVP's because he lead his teams.  18.6 and 12 assists a game isn't slouch shit.  neither is what Tim Duncan did in 02-03 (btw his team beat kobe in the playoffs too)


i'd also take Magic and Shaq in their primes over Kobe too.  same with Hakeem when he was running through every center in the playoffs (ewing, robinson, shaq, vlade etc)

[Chamillitary Click]

Pure shooting: Kobe
Scoring: Toss up
Passing: LeBron by a landslide.
Rebounding: LeBron by a landslide.
Defense: LeBron.
Setting up teammates: LeBron by a landslide.
Fast break finishing: LeBron
Scoring late: Kobe

And if you want to talk things that stats don't show, Shaq was 1st option, Wade deferred to LeBron to be 2nd option when having a Hall of Fame teammate. Kobe also had the greatest coach of all-time, LeBron took previously unemployed Mike Brown to the Finals with Daniel Gibson.

I'll give Kobe the current nod all-time for his achievements, but LeBron's on pace to shatter them all.

[M Dogg™]

you sound like an idiot m-frogg


wilt chamberlain's prime which consists of scoring 50 and 44 points for a whole season can't match kobe's?  


oscar robertson can't match kobe??   as I said before, Bird was the MVP for 3 straight years and Kobe was not.  You can try to rewrite history but Nash deserved those MVP's because he lead his teams.  18.6 and 12 assists a game isn't slouch shit.  neither is what Tim Duncan did in 02-03 (btw his team beat kobe in the playoffs too)


i'd also take Magic and Shaq in their primes over Kobe too.  same with Hakeem when he was running through every center in the playoffs (ewing, robinson, shaq, vlade etc)

Actually, last guy to average 35ppg was Rick Berry, not Wilt, though it was in the Wilt era. I called it the Wilt era because it was different, high scoring games were not as rare as dominate players who could play at a high level today, smashed lesser talent. Oscar Robinson at his best also played in this era. In the 70's, he was still a great player, but not what he was. So I take the Big O out of this argument. Same with Wilt. As I said, since the Wilt era.

LMAO at the Nash argument. You sound like a broken record, one, two you sound like Skip Bayless, and three the writers themselves admit Kobe didn't win because of the rape trail. Nash was good, any other years, he'd be a finalist for MVP. Kobe's prime though was historically good. Numbers that only Jordan has had since the Wilt era. Only Jordan has touched those numbers, and Jordan won MVPs. Of course, you like to agitate, so I'll just leave it at that.

Prime for prime, Since the Wilt era, it's very laughable to put Shaq over Kobe. Dude, I am a Shaq fan. Check all my post since this board was opened about the Lakers. I wanted Shaq over Kobe. It doesn't matter who the better player is, when you have a Shaq, you win titles. While Kobe proved he can win titles without a dominate center, and do it two times in a row. When it comes down to it, Kobe is just a flat out better player than Shaq. And prime for prime, Kobe was a more dominate player than the force that was Shaq.

Bird, Kobe beats Bird in a one on one game, same with Magic. Now Magic is a bit different because he was a team player, so he made everyone else around him better. So there is an argument, and I've made that argument many times to explain why Magic was as good as Jordan. But if you accept Jordan over Magic, then you HAVE to accept Kobe over Magic. Plus Magic has called Kobe the better player.

Lastly, Hakeem. Hakeem is like Magic. I'd actually listen to that argument. Hakeem was a better center than Shaq. Hakeem might have been the second greatest post player in league behind Kareem. But then when you bring in Kareem, it becomes clear that Hakeem ain't better than him. (head to head stats with an old wasted up Kareem are very much in favor of Kareem.) Now it's been said that Kobe is the greatest Laker ever, even by people who played with Kareem. So if Kareem>Hakeem, and Kobe>Kareem, then it is Kobe>Hakeem.

Pure shooting: Kobe
Scoring: Toss up
Passing: LeBron by a landslide.
Rebounding: LeBron by a landslide.
Defense: LeBron.
Setting up teammates: LeBron by a landslide.
Fast break finishing: LeBron
Scoring late: Kobe

And if you want to talk things that stats don't show, Shaq was 1st option, Wade deferred to LeBron to be 2nd option when having a Hall of Fame teammate. Kobe also had the greatest coach of all-time, LeBron took previously unemployed Mike Brown to the Finals with Daniel Gibson.

I'll give Kobe the current nod all-time for his achievements, but LeBron's on pace to shatter them all.

The LeBron chapter is not finished, but my problem with LeBron is that his game is not suited to last into his 30's. Kobe's game could actually allow him to be a shooter off the bench (he'd never take that role, but he's actually a very good 3 point shooter who's tall and takes clutch shots, there are many players who make a career of only doing that.) LeBron's game consist of him being so strong and powerful that he can get inside and create from the middle. In a game, prime for prime though, I just don't see LeBron beating Kobe. Kobe is not weak himself, and he is only one inch shorter. Kobe's who game is what gives him the nod over LeBron.

[Chamillitary Click]

It's kind of odd the only knock you have of LeBron's game is your speculation of how it will hold up in his 30's.

This year, they spent a month comparing LeBron to Jordan. The comparison coming one ring should speak to LeBron's game itself. Kobe didn't see that after one ring, they were busy promoting Shaq.

[M Dogg™]

It's kind of odd the only knock you have of LeBron's game is your speculation of how it will hold up in his 30's.

This year, they spent a month comparing LeBron to Jordan. The comparison coming one ring should speak to LeBron's game itself. Kobe didn't see that after one ring, they were busy promoting Shaq.

Kobe's first ring was because of Shaq, that is true, but Kobe was also 21 at the time, and the next year Kobe was averaging 30ppg with Shaq and the Lakers had 2 years of straight dominance, Kobe only being 22 and 23. I put up his number at 24, and he had better numbers than Shaq. So Kobe did it at a younger age, which people are not going to compare a 23 year old to Michael Jordan. But Kobe more than proved he was just that damn good.

I am not a fan of LeBron vs. Michael. They are two different players. LeBron vs. Bird, LeBron vs. Magic, fine. But LeBron vs. MJ then boils down to preference of what type of player you want. It's like comparing centers in this whole argument. You really can't. You can compare Shaq to Hakeem, and Hakeem to Kareem, but when you throw in Kobe, it doesn't make sense. LeBron is an old school player, and as I said, right now he's the best in the world. You can't fuck with that argument. No one, today is better than LeBron. My thing is LeBron better than Kobe prime for prime, no. But it depends on your style of game.

Since the 1990's, the general standard for best player has changed. Before it was either you like big men (Wilt) or you liked team players (Oscar, Magic). In the 90's, Jordan took the same type of game as Dr. J or Elgin Baylor and put the final piece of the puzzle to make the shoot first type players seen as in a different light. Before people liked the all around team player, or the big man. The shooting guard was a role player who usually could hit a jumper or a timely three. Byron Scott, Danny Ainge. Rarely did you see a shooting guard who was the star of the team, or a score first type player. You had Dr. J (SF), or George Gervin or Jerry West, but none had the full game of MJ. Kobe then took that and came very close. So what you have now is a player who redefined what we think of the greatest of all time, and a player who came after him who tried to be better than Jordan in his own game and came close to matching him.

As I said, prime for prime, give me 81 points in one game Kobe over today's LeBron any day.

[Chamillitary Click]

I don't see why. All 81 point Kobe proved was that he couldn't make the players around him better like LeBron was doing in Cleveland, couldn't win without all-star caliber talent surrounding him and just whined to management and threatened to leave them.

Basically all that's here is that you prefer to watch Kobe just stroke it when he's feeling it rather than LeBron pick and tear apart a defense. Because outside of a much purer jumpshot, LeBron takes him everywhere else.

I don't know really see why you're against MJ/Bron. Virtually the same player except Jordan's mid range game is better, and LeBron has a better post up ability and passing game. But other than that they were both unstoppable taking it to the rack, mediocre three point shooters, elite defenders, etc.

[M Dogg™]

I don't see why. All 81 point Kobe proved was that he couldn't make the players around him better like LeBron was doing in Cleveland, couldn't win without all-star caliber talent surrounding him and just whined to management and threatened to leave them.

Basically all that's here is that you prefer to watch Kobe just stroke it when he's feeling it rather than LeBron pick and tear apart a defense. Because outside of a much purer jumpshot, LeBron takes him everywhere else.

I don't know really see why you're against MJ/Bron. Virtually the same player except Jordan's mid range game is better, and LeBron has a better post up ability and passing game. But other than that they were both unstoppable taking it to the rack, mediocre three point shooters, elite defenders, etc.

Same player?

LeBron is a better passer, a better rebounder and Jordan was a better scorer and had more drive. Basically the same comparison to Kobe.

Kobe scoring 81 shows that he can do it what it takes to win. No one has scored 81 since Wilt scored 100. That's saying something.

[Chamillitary Click]

The difference is you sit there and act like Kobe put the cape on and supernaturally played beyond himself just to win that game, where I see Kobe just being hot, didn't need the final 15-20 points, but was forcing contact and shooting there's early in the shot clock in the final five minutes just to add to the total.

If he did that like once a month and broke out for 65+, I'd agree with you, but it wasn't him "elevating his game" for the win, it was just a hot shooting night.

Kobe early this year averaged waaaay more shots per game than whoever was the closest second to him and with a farrrrr better team than when he scored 81, scored about half of that in his "breakout performances"...also lead the Lakers to a pretty shitty record with that style of play.

[Sccit]

Pure shooting: Kobe
Scoring: Toss up LMAO
Passing: LeBron by a landslide.
Rebounding: LeBron by a landslide.
Defense: LeBron. LMAO
Setting up teammates: LeBron by a landslide.
Fast break finishing: LeBron
Scoring late: Kobe

[Sccit]

I don't see why. All 81 point Kobe proved was that he couldn't make the players around him better like LeBron was doing in Cleveland, couldn't win without all-star caliber talent surrounding him and just whined to management and threatened to leave them.

Basically all that's here is that you prefer to watch Kobe just stroke it when he's feeling it rather than LeBron pick and tear apart a defense. Because outside of a much purer jumpshot, LeBron takes him everywhere else.

I don't know really see why you're against MJ/Bron. Virtually the same player except Jordan's mid range game is better, and LeBron has a better post up ability and passing game. But other than that they were both unstoppable taking it to the rack, mediocre three point shooters, elite defenders, etc.

lol@"couldnt make the players around him better"...he took kwame, luke, and smush to the playoffs! and they all had their best years playing next to kobe.


i'll take it a step further and say kobe is a better passer than lebron. is he as willing a passer? no. but if kobe wanted, he could average 9+ assists per game, and he already proved this when the lakers needed him to. he's simply not as passive as lebron on offense, but still puts up great assist numbers for a shooting guard. he's also more of a leader than lebron..lebron likes to fall back in the shadows and go unnoticeable for long stretches. kobe is an in-your-face leader who demands perfection at all times ala jordan, and even is seen as an extension of the coach when addressing teammates. why do u think kobe was the leader of those olympic teams? come on, now.

[Sccit]

it was just a hot shooting night.