Author Topic: Reason Why Many White People Don't Accept Islam Is Similar To Why The Jews...  (Read 1887 times)

nibs

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1.) I know it was tounge and cheek. I was just having some fun with it.

i'm glad we're all having fun then :)

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There are universal right and wrongs but you don't need a book to know those. Everyone knows them. You can feel them.

the books provide guidance.  teachers provide guidance.  it's very easy to trick yourself into question, doubting and rejecting that which you feel is right.  we can even argue the nature of what is right and wrong because i don't think we agree here.

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I guess that's why I believe in the Holy Spirit. I feel that God is in everyone of us and guides us if we let him.

so for the record, the quran does not challenge the notion of a holy spirit.  it fully supports the notion of higher righteous and also malicious entities.  some translations make direct reference to the/a holy spirit.

the only difference between what you are saying and ideas supported by the quran is that the quran clearly states one creator, superior to all.  holy spirits, angels/jinns...all clearly superior to humans, more devine to humans, but subordinate to ultimate one creator.  the only point of contention between your statements and the quran is this insistence that the holy spirit and jesus are not just divine, but equal with god.  as opposed to divine yet lesser creations of god.

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I haven't read the old book in a while. Vould you give me examples where God orders a man to kill and lets him go though with it, or where God orders a war?

a key example is the book of joshua.  god orders joshua to conquer an insane amount of land, basically from egypt to iraq, including israel, jordan, lebanon, syria, iraq...etc.  states that he is on joshua's side and none can defeat him.  and thus a great israeli empire is founded.  that story about the walls of jehrico crumbling down is basically a war god commands his people to undertake, and then assists them with, for example.  that battle and others are all detailed in joshua.


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To me this shows that Jesus knew there would be a time where the roles would get reversed for some and there would be instances where the woman would be head or equal to the head of the family. Based on what I've read and what I was told, nowhere in the Quran could you even make an argument for that because it makes it clear that the man is the head of the household. (Correct me if I'm wrong. I'd hate to restate this if it isn't true).

<this is connected>

Auxiliary? Are we talking about the same word that means something is not essential? What exactly is an auxiliary beluef of the Quran with regards to the fundmanetal belief of the Trinity? I hope you're talking about prayer and charity because if you're talking about one God vs the essence of God then your beliefs are just as fundamental as mine.

the qu'ran says alot of things.  what's most essential is that there is one god, and acceptance of this and submission to god's will is the one religion.  and that is islam.  denying that is catastrophic.

additionally it prescribes the daily prayers, charitable donations...etc; because "you will be better for it".  it also gives direction on handling issues such as contracts, marriages, inheritance...etc. 

the quran also presents the idea that there are multiple heavens, or multiple levels of heavenly reward, which represents how close one is to god; which reflects ones level of spiritual development.

the qu'ran also states that there is no obligation in religion.

when you put all these ideas together; it isn't that the qu'ran is commanding certain behaviours absolutely, but providing instruction that will help condition and facilitate the greatest amount of spiritual growth.  thus it has it's core ideas:
one god, submit to god's will

important ideas:
daily prayers, charitable donations...etc; which you will be better for adhering to...

auxiliary ideas:
dealing with maintaining a household and a community.

when you mention your aversion to war and violence, the qu'rans position there is simple.  injustice, oppression; these are things that are abhorrant to god.  to engage in war in order to end oppression or injustice is to act in a manner consistent with god's will.  for you to reduce everything to "violence" == "bad" is for you to deny the true nature of existence, to put too great of a value on human life which while precious is also temporary, and could be viewed as complicity in violating god's will.

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you are not challenging daily prayers.
-I am not but I also don't see the need of praying. An all knowing being knows when I do things for God and knows that I love God.

clearly god does not need you to pray.  you would be better off for praying as it is a form of worship, it keeps your mind on god, it facilitates your spiritual growth.  some translations of the qu'ran mention meditating at night in addition to praying.  it's better for your spiritual growth. 

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you are not challenging charitable donations to the poor
- I don't consider them a rule and don't feel they dhould be given unless you want to give. Otherwise it's not charity, it's guilt or sense of duty inspired by fear.

and your statements are consistent here with the quran and the bible as well.  it's not the works, it's the mindset.  the state of mind.  the quran says if you give with resentment, or with spiteful words than you completely undo the good of the deed. 

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you are not challenging whether or not fasting is good;  jesus fasted afterall.
- Again, I'm not against it but don't see it as crucial either.

fasting is a form of sacrifice, a form of discipline...etc.  it's not crucial as you say.  the quran provides in instructions on how to make up for an inablilty to fast; but it states that ultimately you will be better off if you are able to fast.  it's about spiritual growth, not obligation. 

with christianity, noone is challenging the teachings of christ; however, if you insist upon advancing this notion of a trinity...then the fundamental beliefs of that trinity doctrine are in question.

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So are the fundamental beliefs that God exists. We have no proof but we advance the notion none the less.

in the context of christian beliefs vs the quran, the acceptance of god is granted.  the debate is about the nature of christ.

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Islam the basis for Christianity? I guess you're going by the notion that Islam was first but forgotten.

yes.  i am saying islam but not the quran.  the quran clearly came after christianity.  but what was known was the form of the salat prayers, the notions of charity, fasting, and ofcourse the acceptance of one god, one creator.

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I debate the necessity of customs and traditions that plague nearly every religion. To me Christianity is not a church or book, but a state of mind and as long as you have the values that are essential to Christianity, the basic right and wrong, you are a Christian, whether you even know who Jesus is or was.

that is the very argument behind islam; and why abraham, moses, lot, jesus...etc are all considered muslims though they did not have a quran.  except islam literally means "submission to god".

now, i don't agree with your position 100% because it denies many possibilities, and takes a short sighted view of existence.  but i agree with the gist of it.

People have a hard time accepting what goes far against what they have been taught as right for so long. It is no easier for a muslim to accept the trinity than it is for an American to accept Islam. I just don't think it's hate that makes it hard for people to accept.

a muslim has been taught that the trinity is not true by the quran. a muslim would have to elevate an individual that they were taught was a man to god status.

in contrast a christian looking at the quran is seeing the same ideas that were presented in the old and new testaments organized in a slightly different way.  the nature of jesus is clarified, but not directly demolished.  his birth, virgin mother, divinity all remain.  it's only his status relative to god (inferior, as everything else in the universes are) is changed.

i think your argument breaks down in that sense.  infinite's point is that it is something other than the rejection of the ideas in the quran that prevents more americans from embracing islam. 
« Last Edit: March 22, 2006, 12:38:19 PM by nibs »
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Arkan

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i dont accept islam cuz youre a bunch of fucking kooks

oh yeah and i hope u get disgusted by this and go jerk off to the koran




Well what do we have here? Another bigoted WIGGER. Surprise, surprise.



i dont accept islam cuz youre a bunch of fucking kooks
sounds about right


And another one.



The real question is why many Arabs in the Middle East don't accept Christianity.

Oops I forgot.......if they do they are thrown in jail.

Oh shit, even the flag and all? Well I be damned, its the Grand Wizard himself!!!
 

h cottie is bac-tive?

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i dont accept islam cuz youre a bunch of fucking kooks

oh yeah and i hope u get disgusted by this and go jerk off to the koran




Well what do we have here? Another bigoted WIGGER. Surprise, surprise.



i dont accept islam cuz youre a bunch of fucking kooks
sounds about right


And another one.



The real question is why many Arabs in the Middle East don't accept Christianity.

Oops I forgot.......if they do they are thrown in jail.

Oh shit, even the flag and all? Well I be damned, its the Grand Wizard himself!!!


LOL you get a prop 4 makin me laugh.

I WENT TO STAPLES CENTER WEN I WAS WALKING MY GOLD RAG FALL OF MY POCKET AND THE GROUND WAS WET TO AND DIRTY MY RAG GOT DIRTY A LIL BIT PULL IT IT BACK AND MAKE SURE IT WOULD NOT DROP AGAIN ROCKING MY RAG AGAIN HOMIE 8
 

Wessia4LiaNia Chieee Chieee

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I see evidence of this everyday.  Alot of white people I know, no matter how wrecked and destroyed their lives are, no matter how dumb and ignorant they are, they will never listen to anything an Arab would have to tell them. 

A white person would travel to the end of the Earth, frolicking to and fro, searching endlessly for something they will never find, but they would never think to ask an Arab about their religion.

Even if they are face down in the gutter somewhere trying to get a drag off of a dirty cigarette butt, they will still consider themselves as being better than the most refined Arab. 

You're wrong...see that what happens when u relate some people with a whole race. like u said
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Alot of white people I know,
  a lot doesn't means that everyone is ignorant to what the others have to say...I "met" Adisa Banjoko (the author of Lyrical Swords) like more than a year ago..and we talk about religion, about politics, about the media that "encourage" stupidity...and trust me is more likely to speak with people of other religion, race or fuck ..it's better to SPEAK 1st and then ACT. What i want to say is maybe you didn;t find the right White people...and from the way i see it..most of White people in America are dumb as fuck...shit you get rulled by a stupid head there. and many as him.
Lyrical Swords 4 Lia
 

Shallow

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the books provide guidance.  teachers provide guidance.  it's very easy to trick yourself into question, doubting and rejecting that which you feel is right.  we can even argue the nature of what is right and wrong because i don't think we agree here.



Then we have to wonder who or what taught people around the world how to be good. Either God sent different prophets not mentioned to places like China and North America (before Europe) of they figured it out on their own. Then again, maybe the Quran names prophets that had visited the Native Americans and taught them how to behave. I wouldn't know. Does it?





so for the record, the quran does not challenge the notion of a holy spirit.  it fully supports the notion of higher righteous and also malicious entities.  some translations make direct reference to the/a holy spirit.

the only difference between what you are saying and ideas supported by the quran is that the quran clearly states one creator, superior to all.  holy spirits, angels/jinns...all clearly superior to humans, more devine to humans, but subordinate to ultimate one creator.  the only point of contention between your statements and the quran is this insistence that the holy spirit and jesus are not just divine, but equal with god.  as opposed to divine yet lesser creations of god.


Well the Christian view of the Holy Spirit is that God is inside each and everyone one of us, (some Christians think it only applies to people that accept Christianity). I don't think the Quran states it that way. I could be wrong.



a key example is the book of joshua.  god orders joshua to conquer an insane amount of land, basically from egypt to iraq, including israel, jordan, lebanon, syria, iraq...etc.  states that he is on joshua's side and none can defeat him.  and thus a great israeli empire is founded.  that story about the walls of jehrico crumbling down is basically a war god commands his people to undertake, and then assists them with, for example.  that battle and others are all detailed in joshua.


This is why I see Jesus as superior to the rest. He came to right the wrongs done by the former prophets. Just like the Gospel states that Jesus said Moses added things he deemed appropriate, I feel people like Joshua took what was given and ran with it. It's one thing for God to plague a city and another to capture and execute other human beings. Of course the entire Old Testament could be historical fiction. Something I'm more than open too. (For the record I'm also open to the Gospel to be that I just don't believe it is, where as I don't know what I believe about the Old Testament. Either way I don't belive it is an integral part of life to believe in it as completely factual.)

Even if I did believe it all, I would still see Jesus as a step up from those that came before him, as someone who spread his message and had it grow with out violence or anything that contradicts that message.  With Mohammad I see a step back.


To me this shows that Jesus knew there would be a time where the roles would get reversed for some and there would be instances where the woman would be head or equal to the head of the family. Based on what I've read and what I was told, nowhere in the Quran could you even make an argument for that because it makes it clear that the man is the head of the household. (Correct me if I'm wrong. I'd hate to restate this if it isn't true).

<this is connected>

Auxiliary? Are we talking about the same word that means something is not essential? What exactly is an auxiliary beluef of the Quran with regards to the fundmanetal belief of the Trinity? I hope you're talking about prayer and charity because if you're talking about one God vs the essence of God then your beliefs are just as fundamental as mine.

the qu'ran says alot of things.  what's most essential is that there is one god, and acceptance of this and submission to god's will is the one religion.  and that is islam.  denying that is catastrophic.

additionally it prescribes the daily prayers, charitable donations...etc; because "you will be better for it".  it also gives direction on handling issues such as contracts, marriages, inheritance...etc. 

the quran also presents the idea that there are multiple heavens, or multiple levels of heavenly reward, which represents how close one is to god; which reflects ones level of spiritual development.

the qu'ran also states that there is no obligation in religion.

when you put all these ideas together; it isn't that the qu'ran is commanding certain behaviours absolutely, but providing instruction that will help condition and facilitate the greatest amount of spiritual growth.  thus it has it's core ideas:
one god, submit to god's will

important ideas:
daily prayers, charitable donations...etc; which you will be better for adhering to...

auxiliary ideas:
dealing with maintaining a household and a community.

when you mention your aversion to war and violence, the qu'rans position there is simple.  injustice, oppression; these are things that are abhorrant to god.  to engage in war in order to end oppression or injustice is to act in a manner consistent with god's will.  for you to reduce everything to "violence" == "bad" is for you to deny the true nature of existence, to put too great of a value on human life which while precious is also temporary, and could be viewed as complicity in violating god's will.


This doesn't answer my first question about a woman's role. I don't see how an eternal book written by God could ever become dated.


clearly god does not need you to pray.  you would be better off for praying as it is a form of worship, it keeps your mind on god, it facilitates your spiritual growth.  some translations of the qu'ran mention meditating at night in addition to praying.  it's better for your spiritual growth.
 


What I never got is that if God hears and sees everything and you know that he hears and sees everything then everytime you talk you are talking to him, thus praying. If I have something to tell someone and there is a third person in the room and I know that person is listening then aren't I telling that third person what I told the person I am talking to you. That's why I don't really believe in prayer. In a sense I am praying all the time, whether I want to or not.




with christianity, noone is challenging the teachings of christ; however, if you insist upon advancing this notion of a trinity...then the fundamental beliefs of that trinity doctrine are in question.

So are the fundamental beliefs that God exists. We have no proof but we advance the notion none the less.

in the context of christian beliefs vs the quran, the acceptance of god is granted.  the debate is about the nature of christ.

So? The idea of a trinity is no less questionable than the idea of no trinity. Christians believe that there is and Muslims do not. How is not not questionable that there is only on aspect of God?


   

that is the very argument behind islam; and why abraham, moses, lot, jesus...etc are all considered muslims though they did not have a quran.  except islam literally means "submission to god".

now, i don't agree with your position 100% because it denies many possibilities, and takes a short sighted view of existence.  but i agree with the gist of it.

My position denies nothing. It accepts everything as a possibility.

People have a hard time accepting what goes far against what they have been taught as right for so long. It is no easier for a muslim to accept the trinity than it is for an American to accept Islam. I just don't think it's hate that makes it hard for people to accept.

a muslim has been taught that the trinity is not true by the quran. a muslim would have to elevate an individual that they were taught was a man to god status.

in contrast a christian looking at the quran is seeing the same ideas that were presented in the old and new testaments organized in a slightly different way.  the nature of jesus is clarified, but not directly demolished.  his birth, virgin mother, divinity all remain.  it's only his status relative to god (inferior, as everything else in the universes are) is changed.
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So if someone told you that God was not an all powerful being and that he was just some magician who created this world and then left it to us to do as we wish would you accept that so easily, even if what that person tells you complies with every other aspect of the Quran? Christians believe Jesus is God. To make him into a man is asking a lot for people to accept. It'd be like saying that Allah was a sub God that was ordered to serve Arabs, while Buddah was his equal but ordered to serve Asians, and Ganesh to Indians in the same regard, all the while greater God is above them all calling the shots. It wouldn't work for Muslims just like Islam doesn't work for Christians.



i think your argument breaks down in that sense.  infinite's point is that it is something other than the rejection of the ideas in the quran that prevents more americans from embracing islam. 

Infinite was generalizing while he was take a stand against generalizing. He is a hypocrite and I won't stand by and let his hypocrisies go without notice. I don't even know that all Americans don't thinkthat way but may main reason for responding to him was to show that he cannot know that they do. Obviously I don't feel that most Americans are racist but I could be wrong, something Infinite never seems to grasp; that he could be wrong.