Author Topic: Incompetence rules...  (Read 608 times)

Elevz

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Incompetence rules...
« on: March 08, 2008, 11:05:19 AM »
I wish the world wasn't filled with clueless incompetent idiots. They've even taken over the goddamned university...

For a introductory course on cultural anthropology, I was given the assignment to write a cultural autobiography. The idea is simple: describe your life and the things that influenced you. After finishing up a first version, I was told to put it online for an anonymous fellow student to give me feedback on it. After a few days waiting, I got word that they found my essay slash autobiography too complex and too literary. Could I please tone it down somewhat for the final version, so that any fellow student could grasp the meaning of it all? Guess what - I sold my soul to the devil and did just that for the final version. The result is a text that's accessible, always straight to the point and very much structured... And still this fucker didn't understand it. How fucking incompetent can you get? You're attending a university, and you don't know the meaning behind accurate every day words? You don't know how to read a text and extract the meaning of what's being said? Get a fucking grip.

By means of a special exception they'll allow me to redo my text once more and they'll actually let the professor look at it. I guess I'll have to tone it down so much that any fool could grasp the watered down version of me, because apparently they don't appreciate accuracy and a refined writing style.

The university is dumbed down to a level where the meek have become the standard, and anything above that will have to adjust to that. That's the end of science, right there. Kill the competence, and let the incompetent rule. They've got me down to a point where I'm doubtful about doing any work for a university in the future. That's a John Galt-move, I know. But fuck them.
 

virtuoso

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Re: Incompetence rules...
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2008, 11:11:02 AM »

Hey I don't think it's a question of incompetence , there maybe individual incompetence of course, but it's more a question of what you yourself have recognised, a systematic means of dumbing us all down. Why would there be an educational basis of dumbing down? because it allows them who control information to mould and shape you, in the hierarchy, they need to hold the power and knowledge is power. What was done in terms of subjecting to you towards rewriting your work, was a very blatant example of them trying to condition you to think along a more narrow linear simplistic path. I must admit I have never heard of a university asking someone to rewrite an essay but even something as basic as telling you what you must include in your body of work, i.e. the details of the issue from from which the assignment is based, is steering your thinking. The fuckery starts from the moment we enter school man it's just I didn't become consciously aware of that, until I was in uni.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2008, 11:14:32 AM by virtuoso »
 

Tay

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Re: Incompetence rules...
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2008, 08:21:18 PM »
Wow, that's pretty ridiculous. In the U.S., we have laws that kind of put that kind of thinking into effect. The standardized testings and the No Child Left Behind act prefer to have everybody slow down instead of expressing their knowledge. But now it messes up your story and distances it from the original meaning. Reminds me of a Joe Budden lyric, "When you dumb it down, it gets harder to understand".
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Nat Turner-reincarnated

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Re: Incompetence rules...
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2008, 08:48:02 PM »
thats truly ashame.........for real........if that nigga cant overstand that he need to step hi reading/ grammar up ridiculous
 

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Re: Incompetence rules...
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2008, 02:11:45 PM »
I know the feeling, my man. I recently wrote a paper on the dynamics of insulin and it's mechanics within the human body and because I wrote more than everybody else and put more detail into my paper, I got 50% credit. The professor's reasoning behind doing this: I wrote too much.

Less is more and more is less nowadays. The educational system is fucked, we just all have to play the game.
 

virtuoso

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Re: Incompetence rules...
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2008, 02:28:28 PM »

Great point I always used to ask my teachers but why is there a maximum word limit and the response I got was because as much as anything it's a test of your ability to concisely codify information. I always thought it was bullshit but never really appreciated what that really is doing, name;y it's suppressing your ability to express and convey information. For some reason i had completely overlooked that when I was thinking of what 123 had written.
 

7even

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Re: Incompetence rules...
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2008, 04:02:28 PM »
In the big tests with hundreds of people participating, it is always annoying to me that eloquent writing is useless or even hurtful because they will just look for certain things to be mentioned and move on... as long as you ain't the one who's running things you will have to adapt to whichever system you're in, whether you admit it or not.
Cause I don't care where I belong no more
What we share or not I will ignore
And I won't waste my time fitting in
Cause I don't think contrast is a sin
No, it's not a sin
 

Elevz

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Re: Incompetence rules...
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2008, 04:22:35 PM »
In the U.S., we have laws that kind of put that kind of thinking into effect. The standardized testings and the No Child Left Behind act prefer to have everybody slow down instead of expressing their knowledge.

Which is basically what already happened to me in primary school. I was always bored to death and started tinkering with random objects, a scissor and some glue. You can't imagine how devastating boredom is to ambition...

as long as you ain't the one who's running things you will have to adapt to whichever system you're in, whether you admit it or not.

Which is why I'm now thinking, maybe I shouldn't even want to be a part of that system. Fuck them. I'll come in, and grab whatever knowledge I'm looking for, not giving a shit about a GPA or an academic future. I don't want that system, so I might as well get out of the way and rebel against it.
 

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Re: Incompetence rules...
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2008, 04:29:34 PM »
Well, everybody will think "rebelling" is an euphemism for you not being capable. If you get a bad GPA people will just think you suck. Apart from making an idealistic point (that only few people, at best, will notice) I don't see a reason to do so. I say you wait until your emotions cooled off before you make a decisive decision.
Cause I don't care where I belong no more
What we share or not I will ignore
And I won't waste my time fitting in
Cause I don't think contrast is a sin
No, it's not a sin
 

Elevz

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Re: Incompetence rules...
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2008, 04:38:03 PM »
Well, everybody will think "rebelling" is an euphemism for you not being capable. If you get a bad GPA people will just think you suck. Apart from making an idealistic point (that only few people, at best, will notice) I don't see a reason to do so. I say you wait until your emotions cooled off before you make a decisive decision.

;D Props lol
 

Sikotic™

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Re: Incompetence rules...
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2008, 04:47:02 PM »
That's the sad dilemma: acquiring knowledge vs. beating the system. It's becoming almost impossible to do both now. For example, I WANT to take a Biochemistry course this fall. Not only will I gain a lot of valuable knowledge from it, but it would give me a head start when I begin graduate school. The downside: it is highly likely to lower my GPA because of the difficulty of the course, thus limiting my options for medical school. I've been advised by most people I've talked to not to take it because it will hurt my numbers.

How retarded is that?
 

LyRiCaL_G

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Re: Incompetence rules...
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2008, 05:11:26 PM »
That's the sad dilemma: acquiring knowledge vs. beating the system. It's becoming almost impossible to do both now. For example, I WANT to take a Biochemistry course this fall. Not only will I gain a lot of valuable knowledge from it, but it would give me a head start when I begin graduate school. The downside: it is highly likely to lower my GPA because of the difficulty of the course, thus limiting my options for medical school. I've been advised by most people I've talked to not to take it because it will hurt my numbers.

How retarded is that?

I feel you homie, i already done my degree but right now im taking a gap year and then imma do my masters but basically what u said there is part of the reason. I did a joint degree so i had to choose my courses very carefully and at the same time i was trying to get great results and shit which matters to me aswell but i think you will find a balance. Also in my last year of uni i had to do TWO fuckin dissertations, (one was on the role and importance of culture within international business in terms of mergers and aquisitions in a globalised world...dang the literature review i had on that never ended,lol) most muthafuckas only do one so i was kinda phased out after that. This year taking a gap year before i do my masters is hella refreshing, i can do things i want to do, aquire knowledge about shit i wanted to do in uni but didnt because of the politics of the marking system and shit like that. Its also a nice way to get pre-knowledge about shit you are going to learn and shit in the future but again like you say, because of the way the system works, im now one year behind because of the way the system works and me taking a gap year leaves me a year behind in my career but ofcourse because its something i decided to do myself and feel i have achieved what i set out to do within my gap year i feel a sense of peace feel me?

Another point about the thing u said about more is less and less is more...i aint tryna be against the "student" because i still feel like one but that i can understand because you have to understand even though you may not like it and its the life career they have chosen, lecturers and the people who grade your work have lives aswell. If there was no word limit one scenario is that everyone starts writing novel size material for minor random assignments and the people who mark them do not have the time to teach/grade and have a life  of there own aswell. Anothe point is that people could write up so much yet it could be complete bullshit...again a waste of time so word limits are done to please both the people who grade the work and people who write it aswell. It also gives people a basic blueprint into what you really are capable of...how much quality shit can u right within the word limit? how rich is your work? ya dig homie?

I didnt know you was studying medicine though homie...what you want to do when its all done? I know a few cats who study medicine, one wants to be a spinal surgeon and the other a doctor! Dope shit homie! keep it up, but always remember your roots!

Thats what my homies always tell me! haha

pz!
« Last Edit: March 09, 2008, 05:14:03 PM by LyRiCaL_G »
 

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Re: Incompetence rules...
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2008, 06:38:03 PM »
I feel what you're saying. The thing is though, I didn't write bullshit just to get the grade, I demonstrated that I fully understood the topic. Some people wrote bullshit and didn't understand the topic at all, but just because they only wrote a little bit, they got full credit for the assignment. She never even specified the length of the paper. My only gripe is that I proved that I learned something, but I was punished for it and not given a fair reason, but fuck it I'm over it: life isn't fair.

Congrats on the degree. Two dissertations is a crazy achievement, I would probably take a year off two if I were you. I still haven't decided what I want to go into specifically because there are so many options. I'm thinking either emergency medicine at the moment, but the more experience I gain, the more other fields interest me.
 

Australian Bastard

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Re: Incompetence rules...
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2008, 05:11:02 AM »
In the big tests with hundreds of people participating, it is always annoying to me that eloquent writing is useless or even hurtful because they will just look for certain things to be mentioned and move on...


Word. Thats exactly how it is, I learnt the hard way....for my first two years at university I always went into exams with the intention to make my writing interesting and to demonstrate how in my own way I  understood the knowledge of the course......but Ive realised that that takes too much time and nobody cares... so now I just regurgitate the specific shite we supposed to know.....at the end of the day you just a box they gonna either put a tick or a cross against.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/M_bvT-DGcWw" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/M_bvT-DGcWw</a>


« Last Edit: March 10, 2008, 05:40:20 AM by Illuminatus Overfiendus - 322 Skull and Bones Set »
 

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Re: Incompetence rules...
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2008, 04:03:31 PM »
I feel what you're saying. The thing is though, I didn't write bullshit just to get the grade, I demonstrated that I fully understood the topic. Some people wrote bullshit and didn't understand the topic at all, but just because they only wrote a little bit, they got full credit for the assignment. She never even specified the length of the paper. My only gripe is that I proved that I learned something, but I was punished for it and not given a fair reason, but fuck it I'm over it: life isn't fair.


thanks dawg, appreciate it but on the real what you just said there if FUCKED UP,lo...i'd be pissed too at first, but i be like that too, i just get over it,lol

pz
 

Kill

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Re: Incompetence rules...
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2008, 09:11:23 AM »
Apply for Harvard  :laugh:

No really, that sounds pretty sad Elevz. I understand this was supposed to be an academic essay right? I mean, if it had been something like an exercise in journalistic writing or an article to be written with the idea of being accessible to the general public, ok. Simple and concise writing is a skill in its own right. But the way you're describing it, you were requested to dumb down an academic paper written for academic review because the fellow student supposed to have a look at it had trouble to live up to the intellectual task of understanding it....? That's really preposterous and if I got that right, I fully agree with you here. I wouldn't go as far as supporting any theories of how "they" (a word easily misused to establish an elusive idea of some conspirational elite) want to keep "us" (the other word to go with that blurry picture) dumb and so on, but what this does smell of is the same kind of kid-glove treatment for less capable students that I felt confronted with all high school. I've always had the optimism to think that on university level this mediocrity-is-best, it's-all-about-diligence, learn-by-heart-recite-and-you're-a-good-student-don't-matter-if-you-didn't-get-it-at-all pattern would finally be over with, but the way you're describing it that seems not to be the case where you are at. The thought behind this seems to be: "Oh, Elevz' paper happens to be too elaborate for this poor overchallenged fellow of his, but since dude did his best, we can't blame him. Let Elevz water down the essay then". At this educational level, this is just sad. Making intellectual progress often involves being confronted with texts, essays, books and whatnot that are too difficult to fully understand at first. Encouraging students to make their own work accessible to the less gifted is ridiculous.

In the U.S., we have laws that kind of put that kind of thinking into effect. The standardized testings and the No Child Left Behind act prefer to have everybody slow down instead of expressing their knowledge.

Which is basically what already happened to me in primary school. I was always bored to death and started tinkering with random objects, a scissor and some glue. You can't imagine how devastating boredom is to ambition...
That's the old problem of the first few years of school being based on even the slowest child being able to cope. I don't even remember those years too well (in terms of how things were in the classroom), but I do remember that it quite seriously sapped my enthusiasm regarding any kind of public education. It's actually appalling how little of my personal education is related to my 12 fucking years of school.

Well, everybody will think "rebelling" is an euphemism for you not being capable. If you get a bad GPA people will just think you suck. Apart from making an idealistic point (that only few people, at best, will notice) I don't see a reason to do so.
...and that's exactly the type of cold pragmatism that got me through this whole dumb educational system :D

I feel what you're saying. The thing is though, I didn't write bullshit just to get the grade, I demonstrated that I fully understood the topic. Some people wrote bullshit and didn't understand the topic at all, but just because they only wrote a little bit, they got full credit for the assignment. She never even specified the length of the paper.
I think that's the crucial point. I think in general it can be sensible to have certain restrictions to length in academic papers (not to intellectual quality/complexity as in Elevz case, that's simply retarded), but it has to be specified very clearly and if it wasn't, fuck her for bitching about it afterwards. That's pretty unprofessional.
 

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Re: Incompetence rules...
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2008, 10:00:37 AM »
...and I don't mean to support bullying of less bright students by the way. Everyone deserves to get equal chances to make the best of his or her potential. But just for that reason the worst thing that you can do is limiting the possibilities for the more gifted ones by forcing the standards of the average kid upon them, and that's what's seems to be happening in a lot of places and a lot of ways
 

Elevz

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Re: Incompetence rules...
« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2008, 10:22:25 AM »
Apply for Harvard  :laugh:

No really, that sounds pretty sad Elevz. I understand this was supposed to be an academic essay right? I mean, if it had been something like an exercise in journalistic writing or an article to be written with the idea of being accessible to the general public, ok. Simple and concise writing is a skill in its own right. But the way you're describing it, you were requested to dumb down an academic paper written for academic review because the fellow student supposed to have a look at it had trouble to live up to the intellectual task of understanding it....? That's really preposterous and if I got that right, I fully agree with you here.

Well, yes, you did get that right. When I was in college, they used to give me shit for the way I put together texts for business plans and such. That's understandable though - they expect a communications student to keep things accessible, so ultimately I adjusted my writing to that. I expected things to be different at the university though...

I filed my complaints, and at the uni they were quick to dismiss them. It wasn't the student's fault - he only did what he was asked to do, which was judging the text by a set of rules. Nevermind how they did give the essay writers full artistic and intellectual freedom as for how to put together the text. They still expected things to perfectly go along the set guidelines they'd set.

Anyway, I e-mailed them my reworked essay on Sunday night, and I just now got word that they okayed it. A translation of the e-mail I received:
"Ruben, I read the third version of your essay and I okayed it - you passed. This time you managed way better to adjust your writing to our purposes (I was glad to see [the theoretical references] had been replaced by more describing aspects). I have a feeling the way things went in your case was necessary, and it seems you learned from it - which is ultimately the goal behind [getting] an education."

I would normally consider that e-mail a shocker, were it not for the fact that this professor gets on my nerves with every lecture he gives, simply for pushing political ideals instead of being a neutral scientist.

I wouldn't go as far as supporting any theories of how "they" (a word easily misused to establish an elusive idea of some conspirational elite) want to keep "us" (the other word to go with that blurry picture) dumb and so on, but what this does smell of is the same kind of kid-glove treatment for less capable students that I felt confronted with all high school. I've always had the optimism to think that on university level this mediocrity-is-best, it's-all-about-diligence, learn-by-heart-recite-and-you're-a-good-student-don't-matter-if-you-didn't-get-it-at-all pattern would finally be over with, but the way you're describing it that seems not to be the case where you are at. The thought behind this seems to be: "Oh, Elevz' paper happens to be too elaborate for this poor overchallenged fellow of his, but since dude did his best, we can't blame him. Let Elevz water down the essay then". At this educational level, this is just sad. Making intellectual progress often involves being confronted with texts, essays, books and whatnot that are too difficult to fully understand at first. Encouraging students to make their own work accessible to the less gifted is ridiculous.

I have nothing to add there, except that universities are overrated. The majority of the students still don't have a clue. University College could be a nice exception, but they, more than any place else, are all about high grades and denouncing failure according to their expectations.

In the U.S., we have laws that kind of put that kind of thinking into effect. The standardized testings and the No Child Left Behind act prefer to have everybody slow down instead of expressing their knowledge.

Which is basically what already happened to me in primary school. I was always bored to death and started tinkering with random objects, a scissor and some glue. You can't imagine how devastating boredom is to ambition...
That's the old problem of the first few years of school being based on even the slowest child being able to cope. I don't even remember those years too well (in terms of how things were in the classroom), but I do remember that it quite seriously sapped my enthusiasm regarding any kind of public education. It's actually appalling how little of my personal education is related to my 12 fucking years of school.

Only in recent years I've started to recover from that depraved morality and its consequences...

Well, everybody will think "rebelling" is an euphemism for you not being capable. If you get a bad GPA people will just think you suck. Apart from making an idealistic point (that only few people, at best, will notice) I don't see a reason to do so.
...and that's exactly the type of cold pragmatism that got me through this whole dumb educational system :D

I feel what you're saying. The thing is though, I didn't write bullshit just to get the grade, I demonstrated that I fully understood the topic. Some people wrote bullshit and didn't understand the topic at all, but just because they only wrote a little bit, they got full credit for the assignment. She never even specified the length of the paper.
I think that's the crucial point. I think in general it can be sensible to have certain restrictions to length in academic papers (not to intellectual quality/complexity as in Elevz case, that's simply retarded), but it has to be specified very clearly and if it wasn't, fuck her for bitching about it afterwards. That's pretty unprofessional.

I guess that's what it all comes down to... Figuring out what exactly is being expected from you. There's no one looking for your full potential. They want to fit you into their tight schemes. It might not be a conspiracy, but no matter which way you put it, it sure as hell doesn't pave the way to progression.
 

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Re: Incompetence rules...
« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2008, 01:39:44 PM »
Well, yes, you did get that right. When I was in college, they used to give me shit for the way I put together texts for business plans and such. That's understandable though - they expect a communications student to keep things accessible, so ultimately I adjusted my writing to that. I expected things to be different at the university though...

I filed my complaints, and at the uni they were quick to dismiss them. It wasn't the student's fault - he only did what he was asked to do, which was judging the text by a set of rules. Nevermind how they did give the essay writers full artistic and intellectual freedom as for how to put together the text. They still expected things to perfectly go along the set guidelines they'd set.

Anyway, I e-mailed them my reworked essay on Sunday night, and I just now got word that they okayed it. A translation of the e-mail I received:
"Ruben, I read the third version of your essay and I okayed it - you passed. This time you managed way better to adjust your writing to our purposes (I was glad to see [the theoretical references] had been replaced by more describing aspects). I have a feeling the way things went in your case was necessary, and it seems you learned from it - which is ultimately the goal behind [getting] an education."

I would normally consider that e-mail a shocker, were it not for the fact that this professor gets on my nerves with every lecture he gives, simply for pushing political ideals instead of being a neutral scientist.
I'd actually find it quite interesting to see just so much as a little excerpt from that paper, but as you might have figured I don't speak Dutch. Personally, from what I can tell about the situation, I'd probably be overwhelmed by a strong urge to punch the guy in the face for that email and, most particularly, that patronizing tone and the wise-ass comment at the end. The shock value this holds is due to the fact that we're speaking about university here. I'll comment on you saying universities are overrated below, but what this professor does, implicitly, is to raise his finger and preach down on you about respecting the alleged core values of the educational system and how you're not to tangle with anyone who "outranks" you in that system. Written like this, this is degrading and it suggests a teacher-student relationship applicable about as far as 5th grade in whatever form. Of course as a professor it's his job to evaluate whether your work as a student is, simply put, good enough, but at university you should be on an eye-to-eye basis with him as persons which this email quite clearly suggests he doesn't think you are.

Secondly, intellectual work that includes the term "artistic freedom" or anything similar (and I'll just keep working on the assumption that you're not making this stuff up) is of little value when judged by a set of fixed guidelines compiled on a neat list. Fucking duh. If this has really been described accurately by you (which I keep wondering about because I find it astounding, not because I think you're likely to talk crap here), it's a pretty absurd way of dealing with the issue and reminds me of the weak attempts at "progressive" methods/lessons/exercises I spent some time being subjected to, i.e. doing pseudo-creative crap resulting in working within the same restrictions and the same system having to meet the same expectations, just doing it in a way that seems kinda different at very first glance. I am starting to wonder what kind of university you're attending lol. It just reminds me too much of high school and all the phony bullshit there which had you doing nothing new and coming out with nothing but a slap on the back from stuck-up teachers and decent grades, too large parts of my school career consisted of.

But maybe you can answer some questions I got, out of mere interest:
- What university is this? (just curious)
- What exactly are your studies?
- You mentioned "college", "university college" and "university"...since I have no idea of the Dutch system how's that work then?
- What, precisely, was your essay on and what, precisely, were the grounds on which they said they rejected it?

Quote
I have nothing to add there, except that universities are overrated. The majority of the students still don't have a clue. University College could be a nice exception, but they, more than any place else, are all about high grades and denouncing failure according to their expectations.
Like I just said, I'm not familiar with the term "university college" (what I figure is that you mean uni as opposed to college which then would have to be some kind of pre-stage for uni in the Netherlands...?), but the grade problem is not a negligeable one here. I don't think grades as such are "the wrong way", but the criteria the evaluation of how things are rated is based upon are, in many many places, too simple, too strict and often outdated. That's the problem of simple patterns being applied to complex issues such as "how good a 'rating' does a particular student deserve?", and the problem becomes most blatant and its consequences most shocking when creativity becomes part of the student's work. You can judge an algebra exam by those standards but as soon as you leave the territory of simple "correct" and "not correct", you will need to have more elaborate ways of looking at things. If that doesn't happen the result is what this very topic is about. If universities stick to those patterns, they are overrated, yes. But maybe you said so for other reasons, too...?

Quote
Only in recent years I've started to recover from that depraved morality and its consequences...
Would you mind outlining what you mean by that? I mean, I do think we have/had similar experiences there...

Quote
I guess that's what it all comes down to... Figuring out what exactly is being expected from you. There's no one looking for your full potential. They want to fit you into their tight schemes. It might not be a conspiracy, but no matter which way you put it, it sure as hell doesn't pave the way to progression.
The way you described it, no. I still refuse to believe it's illusionary to believe in the possibilty of finding a university/field of study where things are not exactly this bad, or where this problem exists to a much less dramatic extent, but basically, this is the education I've had myself too and all I can do is hope that I can find a place where it's way better.
 

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Re: Incompetence rules...
« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2008, 05:40:08 PM »
In the U.S., we have laws that kind of put that kind of thinking into effect. The standardized testings and the No Child Left Behind act prefer to have everybody slow down instead of expressing their knowledge.

Which is basically what already happened to me in primary school. I was always bored to death and started tinkering with random objects, a scissor and some glue. You can't imagine how devastating boredom is to ambition...

Yeah, I remember that feeling, just drawing pointless pictures, cutting class, doing things just because I was bored. Since I've got to college, it has not gotten better, except for maybe 2 classes. I'm even taking a class on "Digital Recording & Sampling" for music, and even this goes at such a slow pace because it takes people time to learn it, but at least he doesn't limit us, I just start messing with stuff on my own. I understand that many people are limited and struggle to keep up, but the education system needs to move away from the "cookie-cutter" mentality, because people learn at different paces.
I got a bird's eye view
 

Elevz

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Re: Incompetence rules...
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2008, 02:50:43 AM »
For another 48 hours I won't be having any time to get back at you, but I'll answer all your questions on Friday morning :P
 

Kill

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Re: Incompetence rules...
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2008, 04:18:34 AM »
For another 48 hours I won't be having any time to get back at you, but I'll answer all your questions on Friday morning :P
lol, that's cool
 

Elevz

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Re: Incompetence rules...
« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2008, 04:31:57 AM »
In fact, I may just chop my time into pieces and answer your questions in small bits. Let's start in a logical order for the answers.

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Only in recent years I've started to recover from that depraved morality and its consequences...
Would you mind outlining what you mean by that? I mean, I do think we have/had similar experiences there...

The western part of the country is where the major cities such as Amsterdam, Rotterdam, Utrecht and The Hague are. I grew up in the east, among socialists, farmers and conservatives. I was basically bored to death in primary school, as the teachers put all their efforts into making sure everyone in my class could understand the lessons. It required endless repeating of the same explanations, and really, after the 25th time of explaining the workings of a long division, you'll really, really feel bored when you readily understood it the very first time. The teachers didn't pay it any mind, so I started tinkering until the drawer of my table was stuffed with my creative findings, which ultimately, the teachers took from me.
High school wasn't much different. As a freshman, my grades were amazing. That's when I stopped bothering, because everything was too easy. Combine that with the eastern mentality, which focuses on practical things rather than theoretical things, and I quit caring for ending up at a university. I thought I'd enjoy things a great deal better when I could actually see and feel the results of my work. Business, writing, whatever it would be. A lack of challenge at the intellectual side, and a lack of motivation at the cultural/social side...
I descended in school level, from VWO/gymnasium level to "havo" (Higher General Continued Education) one level below that. To keep it short: I had a hard time coming back from that, basically because the system wasn't designed for making quick advancements. I still struggled to make my way through HBO (Higher Professional Education, which is what I meant by college: it's a so called "practical university"), basically because there's no mental challenges in it at all. They don't expect you to be interested in the subject matter at all, and they don't aim for shaping interests either. My first year in HBO College was a miserable failure, so I changed studies to HBO Communications, which was enjoyable but far too easy. Through my HBO propedeutical diploma, I managed to enroll in Utrecht at the University of Utrecht. But really, what if I personally hadn't been able to find inspiration through reading scientific works as a hobby? In no way would I have been able to climb back up on that educational ladder. The whole system wasn't designed for challenging and getting the best of people. You get a degree and it must match certain criteria, that's all.

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But maybe you can answer some questions I got, out of mere interest:
- What university is this? (just curious)
- What exactly are your studies?
- You mentioned "college", "university college" and "university"...since I have no idea of the Dutch system how's that work then?

Anyway, I'm now attending the University of Utrecht, which is supposedly the seventh best university in Europe and #1 in The Netherlands. That's basically because there have been a couple Nobel Prize winners connected to the university throughout the years. When I mentioned University College, I was referring to the Honors College of the University of Utrecht, which does seem like a great institute on the outside. I wouldn't know what they're like on the inside, but one thing's for certain: you'd have to be damn near genius to make it in there, and certainly they wouldn't allow someone with my background in.

Anyway, to summarize the system:
- There's the MBO (middle-level vocational training) for people who want to become a secretary, or a butcher, or a car technician. A finished MBO-degree gives you the ability to enroll for HBO. People usually start their MBO around the age of 16/17, and finish around 19/20.
- There's the HBO/College/Practical Universities (higher professional education) for people who want to become an accountant, or a nurse, or a communications advisor in my case. A HBO propedeutical diploma (= having fully completed the first year of HBO) gives you the ability to enroll at a university. People usually start their HBO around the age of 17/18 and finish around 21/22. A fully completed HBO education gives someone a BA-title. To get their masters, they'll have to attend a university next, after first going through another transmission year.
- (Theoretical) Universities are basically for those who have finished high school at the highest level. They deal in BA and MA degrees, studying subject matters such as Law, Literature, Psychology or Physics.
- University College is basically a universitary institute for those who are to graduate with high honours. The subject matter is comparable to a traditional university, but the type of education they provide for students is way more exclusive and going way deeper.

Shit, I'm wasting the time that I should be spending studying... lol. I'll come back with more later!
 

Kill

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Re: Incompetence rules...
« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2008, 07:53:20 AM »
Shit, I'm wasting the time that I should be spending studying... lol. I'll come back with more later!
yeah, you're a lazy fuck. Nah seriously, I appreciate your detailed answers, it's an interesting topic. So props 8)
 

Joe Bonanno

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Re: Incompetence rules...
« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2008, 08:19:52 AM »
^^i just now realized thats the chick from jefferson airplane  :P