Author Topic: Is it possible to be moral without any religious influence?  (Read 238 times)

Elevz

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Re: Is it possible to be moral without any religious influence?
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2008, 05:35:16 AM »
Of course... I'm the living proof nigga

That's why you don't celebrate Christmas, right? Or respect your elders. Or accept your Sundays off from work. The whole protestant work ethic never even got anywhere near you. Oh, and also, I understand you don't wear clothes in public on a hot summer day. You're 100% freed from religious influences. I see.

What I'm saying is that you might not be moral because of your religiousness, but you'll still be influenced by religion because that's what shaped the culture that gives form to our world. That's what reflects back onto your personal morality: your acceptance or opposing of the morals of the world around you.

So in short, no, given the social environment we're now in, there'll always be religious influences on your morals. Hypothetically speaking, however, a "new" society made up of "blank" people on a deserted island would start giving shape to a new culture of theirs, but they would almost certainly resort back to some conceptions of the supernatural in order to explain that which they cannot explain. It's a natural coping strategy; humans need that to stay psychologically healthy.


I don't celebrate Christmas, and I don't care which day I have off. I wouldn't call the fact that I am not running around in public naked religious influence. If you go as far as to say that culture-society-humans have been in a somewhat religious environment and therefore have a share of religious influence, as to say, Christians usually ate food when they were hungry, then yes, everybody has got religious influence. But that was not the point of the thread now was it?

I thought it was the point of this thread, since it's talking about being moral without religious INFLUENCE, instead of just being moral without being religious. The influences reach pretty far. So you tell me why you wear clothes in public on a hot summer day. Is that not influenced by the policemen who would give you a fee for running around naked? Are those policies not based on a culture which clings onto chastity because of its background of  Christian morality?
 

Elevz

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Re: Is it possible to be moral without any religious influence?
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2008, 05:43:30 AM »
Another important point to make is that while religion teaches altruism and self-lessness, the same morals can be taught from a selfish perspective.

Instead of teaching a chile he should steal because God says so, he can be taught that he shouldn't steal because people will shun a thief and not want to be his friend. 

Or that he shouldn't lie, not because "God says so" but rather because the consequences of a lie are that one has to continue pretending and carrying on that lie far longer than they origionally intended and that ultimately they can get what is more in harmony with their nature by approaching the world directly and honestly.



Unfortuantely the world doesn't work like that. Sociopaths usually cope very well with society. Smart thieves don't get caught. Etc

Sociopaths aren't exactly mentally healthy. Smart thieves might not get caught, but you're breaking down the fundamentals of your own integrity if you go around stealing from other people, not giving a shit about them, yet knowing that they're human beings too, just like yourself. Disrespecting their property rights means you're basically disrespecting the existence of property rights on a whole. That's anarchy, in the most violent sense of the word. That's a free pass on "anything goes". Whether it's stealing a news paper from a store or putting a bullet through someone's head, the principle is the same. Saying it's okay for you to steal a news paper, by its essence means saying it's okay for someone else to shoot you in the head. Even though the comparison may seem ridiculous, they're really variations of the same theme. It takes a lot for a sociopath to mentally suppress all of that, and sure as hell they wouldn't get any happier from all of that. Such coping mechanisms may make them fit for survival, but that doesn't make them fit for life.
 

7even

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Re: Is it possible to be moral without any religious influence?
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2008, 05:51:39 AM »
Of course... I'm the living proof nigga

That's why you don't celebrate Christmas, right? Or respect your elders. Or accept your Sundays off from work. The whole protestant work ethic never even got anywhere near you. Oh, and also, I understand you don't wear clothes in public on a hot summer day. You're 100% freed from religious influences. I see.

What I'm saying is that you might not be moral because of your religiousness, but you'll still be influenced by religion because that's what shaped the culture that gives form to our world. That's what reflects back onto your personal morality: your acceptance or opposing of the morals of the world around you.

So in short, no, given the social environment we're now in, there'll always be religious influences on your morals. Hypothetically speaking, however, a "new" society made up of "blank" people on a deserted island would start giving shape to a new culture of theirs, but they would almost certainly resort back to some conceptions of the supernatural in order to explain that which they cannot explain. It's a natural coping strategy; humans need that to stay psychologically healthy.


I don't celebrate Christmas, and I don't care which day I have off. I wouldn't call the fact that I am not running around in public naked religious influence. If you go as far as to say that culture-society-humans have been in a somewhat religious environment and therefore have a share of religious influence, as to say, Christians usually ate food when they were hungry, then yes, everybody has got religious influence. But that was not the point of the thread now was it?

I thought it was the point of this thread, since it's talking about being moral without religious INFLUENCE, instead of just being moral without being religious. The influences reach pretty far. So you tell me why you wear clothes in public on a hot summer day. Is that not influenced by the policemen who would give you a fee for running around naked? Are those policies not based on a culture which clings onto chastity because of its background of  Christian morality?

There are places in which it is legal to wear no clothes. Certain beaches and shit. I still don't go there naked, some people do. It's not my style. But let's not get too hung up on practical examples. I thought the point of the thread was if anybody could be "good" without any reward from God, or any sort or responsibility towards a personal God who sees everything, or without repercussions from an entity that you cannot trick (unlike the law, your parents, etc). I might have been wrong with that assumption. Assuming I was wrong, the question at hand can not be confined to "morals".. in that case it's general behaviour (or judgement, etc.) It's a certain value system that we have, and that is influenced by religion as our past societies have always been exposed to religion or irrational beliefs. In this case, I of course agree. But the bible is certainly not the reason why I don't split wigs, it's more of a coincidence.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2008, 05:59:17 AM by 7even »
Cause I don't care where I belong no more
What we share or not I will ignore
And I won't waste my time fitting in
Cause I don't think contrast is a sin
No, it's not a sin
 

7even

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Re: Is it possible to be moral without any religious influence?
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2008, 06:03:20 AM »
Another important point to make is that while religion teaches altruism and self-lessness, the same morals can be taught from a selfish perspective.

Instead of teaching a chile he should steal because God says so, he can be taught that he shouldn't steal because people will shun a thief and not want to be his friend. 

Or that he shouldn't lie, not because "God says so" but rather because the consequences of a lie are that one has to continue pretending and carrying on that lie far longer than they origionally intended and that ultimately they can get what is more in harmony with their nature by approaching the world directly and honestly.



Unfortuantely the world doesn't work like that. Sociopaths usually cope very well with society. Smart thieves don't get caught. Etc

Sociopaths aren't exactly mentally healthy. Smart thieves might not get caught, but you're breaking down the fundamentals of your own integrity if you go around stealing from other people, not giving a shit about them, yet knowing that they're human beings too, just like yourself. Disrespecting their property rights means you're basically disrespecting the existence of property rights on a whole. That's anarchy, in the most violent sense of the word. That's a free pass on "anything goes". Whether it's stealing a news paper from a store or putting a bullet through someone's head, the principle is the same. Saying it's okay for you to steal a news paper, by its essence means saying it's okay for someone else to shoot you in the head. Even though the comparison may seem ridiculous, they're really variations of the same theme. It takes a lot for a sociopath to mentally suppress all of that, and sure as hell they wouldn't get any happier from all of that. Such coping mechanisms may make them fit for survival, but that doesn't make them fit for life.

See, that's what people like you do, you rationalize it down to the point that those people are completely irrational and unhappy, when in reality, there simply are  bad people who are successfully having reckless fun out there with no God to ever punish them (from an atheist point of view). Of course this may sound over-simplyfied to you; and you would never accept it cause that whole strive-for-oneself-concept gets a snag.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2008, 06:05:21 AM by 7even »
Cause I don't care where I belong no more
What we share or not I will ignore
And I won't waste my time fitting in
Cause I don't think contrast is a sin
No, it's not a sin
 

Turf Hitta

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Re: Is it possible to be moral without any religious influence?
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2008, 04:51:01 PM »
Whatchall think......

Absolutely. I'd even go as far as to argue that religion can actually breed immorality.
 

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Re: Is it possible to be moral without any religious influence?
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2008, 12:52:43 PM »


See, that's what people like you do, you rationalize it down to the point that those people are completely irrational and unhappy, when in reality, there simply are  bad people who are successfully having reckless fun out there with no God to ever punish them (from an atheist point of view). Of course this may sound over-simplyfied to you; and you would never accept it cause that whole strive-for-oneself-concept gets a snag.


7even is right. 

We can not say that the thief is any less happy.  Happiness is subjective, we can not determine for someone else what will make them happy.   It could be totally possible that a thief could find a happiness that is not only temporary but durable.  So we can only say that we have chosen for ourselves, after viewing the consequences to ONE'S OWN life, that we may achieve greater happiness by NOT stealing... but we can't claim absolutely that the thief is always less happy.

Our only concern with the thief now becomes... not whether or not he is happy, but how can we guard our property against the thief.  And by the way, government is not needed for this purpose, as many believe.  One can merely take measures to avoid the thief, use locks, alarms, their are also many private security agencies available to them, bodyguards, etc... depending on the amount of wealth you must secure, and how much you are willing to expend for that purpose. 
« Last Edit: October 08, 2008, 12:57:03 PM by Infinite »
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Re: Is it possible to be moral without any religious influence?
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2008, 07:27:09 PM »
yeah but specifically how you explain it, (know any philosophers whose bout it bout it?) how...

how can you be moral without religious influence...where did you get your morales from then?

my philosophia teacher use to tell us that god was not moral because he's describe in the bible as a love being and is only able to do the right thing. You can't be moral if you're not able to chose between the bad and evil. Like there's no right without wrong. In the ancient testament, god is moral, for exemple when the devil ask him to prove job faith and put him to test he's doing wrong, he has the capacity to chose. It's a none sense most christian religion ask people to be amoral not moral or unmoral