Lifestyle > Train of Thought
do the muslims on this board...
coola:
^ so the anti-christ will be able to do all that ? wont the jews see him as the christ ? haha the jews are fucked..
Shallow:
--- Quote from: nibs on April 09, 2006, 10:43:06 AM ---i find it hard to foresee a need to replace anything that is said in the qu'ran.
--- End quote ---
And many Christians find it hard to replace anything in the Bible. I personally find it hard to to denounce anything in the gospel. The whole Son of God thing is either believed or not, but cannot be logically dismissed or proven. The bottom line is there is nothing in the Gospel that I disagree with morally. I can't say that for any other religious text I've read. All I'm trying to say is that you can see why I personally would have no interest ingoing from Christianity to Islam, (not that you are saying I should).
Someone new came along and claimed to be a prohet and claimed that Jesus was just a prophet and of course Christians would reject that, much like Muslims who have been told the Quran is the unaltered word of God, when in fact the only thing you can proove is that it is believed to be the unaltered word of God. You don't know for sure, but you believe, and that's fine.
I read lines like this from Surah 4:34;
Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
Even in apoligist translations it still comes out that the man is the head and his will is more important htan the woman's. Now when Paul wrote shit like this in his letters I can accept it because Paul was a man of his times who was doing what he felt was right but not knowledgeable enough to understand what is to come and how the world will change. I see Moses and the other previous prophets the same way. Men who knew what they were told and added their own takes because they felt it was right. I can't accept anything I feel is immoral as the true word of God.
(This post was not an attack to instigate but to explain what I believe and why).
nibs:
--- Quote from: Shallow on April 10, 2006, 06:58:45 AM ---And many Christians find it hard to replace anything in the Bible. I personally find it hard to to denounce anything in the gospel. The whole Son of God thing is either believed or not, but cannot be logically dismissed or proven.
--- End quote ---
the son of god is largely a semantic issue. god is not a man, god does not have semen, god does not have sons in the sense that man has sons.
many people have interpretted the relationship of jesus and god, and jesus words in a far different manner. you portray this as an all or nothing issue when it's not.
The bottom line is there is nothing in the Gospel that I disagree with morally.
that is an interesting standard which is based largely on your own conjecture. one lesson that the qu'ran teaches is that often your moral decisions are often wrong if you do not have complete understanding of a situation. the point to religion is not necessarily to find what agrees with you, but to find what is true and understand why it's true.
--- Quote ---Someone new came along and claimed to be a prohet and claimed that Jesus was just a prophet and of course Christians would reject that, much like Muslims who have been told the Quran is the unaltered word of God, when in fact the only thing you can proove is that it is believed to be the unaltered word of God. You don't know for sure, but you believe, and that's fine.
--- End quote ---
the qu'ran is more than just "unaltered". the bible represents mostly history based on observation, and even the accuracy of this history has been debated.
even the new testatement is mostly observation of jesus and part of what he said. this is more comparable to hadiths then the quran.
--- Quote ---I read lines like this from Surah 4:34;
Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
Even in apologist translations it still comes out that the man is the head and his will is more important htan the woman's.
--- End quote ---
you are looking for laws rather than guidance. men and women are different, their roles are different. in no way does that sura say that the man should disregard the advice and counsel of his wife. in no way does it say that a man should completely dominate his wife. what it says is that ultimately the man has the final authority which the woman should respect. the actual dynamics of the relationship; how decisions are debated, how the woman's opinion is valued..etc are completely unspecified. you suggest that women have no rights in a relationship, the reality is that the relationship could easily be 50.5%/49.5%. all it says is the man sets the tone.
for you to disagree is for you to deny that that it allows you to be as liberal as you wish in the relationship. additionally, it in no way condones abusive or irrational behavior. it relies on the husband to be just. women also have the right to seek divorce if the marriage isn't working; if the man is a bad husband.
it's hard to understand what you have a problem with. if people use scripture to justify bad behavior, it's not that their actions are good and just; it is that they are abusing the scripture. this is the exact same idea h cottie has been trying to use to explain why terrorists are wrong, and incompatible with islam.
--- Quote ---I can't accept anything I feel is immoral as the true word of God.
--- End quote ---
in many ways the quran is malleable where you suggest that it is firm. saying the man is the head of the household is not the same as saying that the man must dominate and terrorize. it's nowhere near the same.
the qu'ran has an interesting parable about morality:
sura 18:60-82 (khalifah)
Moses said to his servant, "I will not rest until I reach the point where the two rivers meet, no matter how long it takes."
When they reached the point where they met, they forgot their fish, and it found its way back to the river, sneakily.
After they passed that point, he said to his servant, "Let us have lunch. All this traveling has thoroughly exhausted us."
He said, "Remember when we sat by the rock back there? I paid no attention to the fish. It was the devil who made me forget it, and it found its way back to the river, strangely."
(Moses) said, "That was the place we were looking for." They traced their steps back.
They found one of our servants, whom we blessed with mercy, and bestowed upon him from our own knowledge.
Moses said to him, "Can I follow you, that you may teach me some of the knowledge and the guidance bestowed upon you?"
He said, "You cannot stand to be with me.
"How can you stand that which you do not comprehend?"
He said, "You will find me, GOD willing, patient. I will not disobey any command you give me."
He said, "If you follow me, then you shall not ask me about anything, unless I choose to tell you about it."
So they went. When they boarded a ship, he bore a hole in it. He said, "Did you bore a hole in it to drown its people? You have committed something terrible."
He said, "Did I not say that you cannot stand to be with me?"
He said, "I am sorry. Do not punish me for my forgetfulness; do not be too harsh with me."
So they went. When they met a young boy, he killed him. He said, "Why did you kill such an innocent person, who did not kill another person? You have committed something horrendous."
He said, "Did I not tell you that you cannot stand to be with me?"
He said, "If I ask you about anything else, then do not keep me with you. You have seen enough apologies from me."
So they went. When they reached a certain community, they asked the people for food, but they refused to host them. Soon, they found a wall about to collapse, and he fixed it. He said, "You could have demanded a wage for that!"
He said, "Now we have to part company. But I will explain to you everything you could not stand.
"As for the ship, it belonged to poor fishermen, and I wanted to render it defective. There was a king coming after them, who was confiscating every ship, forcibly.
"As for the boy, his parents were good believers, and we saw that he was going to burden them with his transgression and disbelief.*
"We willed that your Lord substitute in his place another son; one who is better in righteousness and kindness.
"As for the wall, it belonged to two orphan boys in the city. Under it, there was a treasure that belonged to them. Because their father was a righteous man, your Lord wanted them to grow up and attain full strength, then extract their treasure. Such is mercy from your Lord. I did none of that of my own volition. This is the explanation of the things you could not stand."
ultimately noone knows everything. it's often more advantageous to look at a scripture in terms of "why is this right?" as opposed to looking for reasons to say it's wrong.
if ultimately you are going with your morality why even bother with the scriptures at all?
Shallow:
There was no point to respond to me. I made it very clear that I was just expressing my personal beliefs and in no way wanted to change yours or say yours were wrong. If you responded for the sake of anyone else reading so you didn't appear to give up then I understand. But you can't give me answers that are outside your realm. You can't prove anything about Islam as being true and it's pointless to try. You may go in with the implication that I know you mean "you believe" but for people looking on they may not see that and cofuse your beliefs with you attempting to present cold hard facts. In general you should try to say things that would imply Islam is more pure because the Bible was changed while the Quran wasn't, because you don't know.
There is one thing you said that I reallly had a problem with;
"in many ways the quran is malleable where you suggest that it is firm. saying the man is the head of the household is not the same as saying that the man must dominate and terrorize. it's nowhere near the same."
I just presented the quote and said I disagree with it, and that I have read the apologist interpretations and still disagreed. I never once said that the Quran endorses domination or terrorism with in the houshold. If it is 50.5% to 49.5% I still think it's wrong, and even if the woman can find a better husband she is still inferior, slightly inferior or not. I strongly believe that a woman lead household, where the woman can have the final say can be just as strong as a male lead household. I personally want would like a completely equal household where no decisions are made unless we both agree, with compromises being necessary from both, and I personally don't want to believe in a God that says it's okay for my word to take precedent over my wife's. It's just my view.
To answer your last question; "if ultimately you are going with your morality why even bother with the scriptures at all?"
I don't bother with them. I read them to know them for educational puposes. I belive when Jesus said he cam for the sinners not the righteous, claiming htat good people existed and could exist with out his teachings because they already knew the teachings. I take a very philosphical approach to Christianity and it suits me well. It doesn't have to suit you.
nibs:
--- Quote from: Shallow on April 10, 2006, 02:51:49 PM ---There was no point to respond to me. I made it very clear that I was just expressing my personal beliefs and in no way wanted to change yours or say yours were wrong. If you responded for the sake of anyone else reading so you didn't appear to give up then I understand.
--- End quote ---
i am not trying to convert you. i respond simply to indicate that where you suggest there are questions there are actually answers. i respond for completeness sake. for the record, i have no problem at all with you being a christian. i don't believe that people can be told what to do, people seek and they find. i am not telling you to convert, i am illustrating the misconceptions in your concerns.
--- Quote ---But you can't give me answers that are outside your realm. You can't prove anything about Islam as being true and it's pointless to try.
--- End quote ---
my realm is infinite. you have made statements that were clear misconceptions and those were addressable.
--- Quote ---You may go in with the implication that I know you mean "you believe" but for people looking on they may not see that and cofuse your beliefs with you attempting to present cold hard facts.
--- End quote ---
i present cold hard facts.
--- Quote ---In general you should try to say things that would imply Islam is more pure because the Bible was changed while the Quran wasn't, because you don't know.
--- End quote ---
the bible is presented as a history and the actual accuracy of that history is debated; the meaning largely has to be inferred. the new testament suffers slightly less from this the old. the quran is presented as instructions with historical references. these are the facts.
--- Quote ---I just presented the quote and said I disagree with it, and that I have read the apologist interpretations and still disagreed. I never once said that the Quran endorses domination or terrorism with in the houshold. If it is 50.5% to 49.5% I still think it's wrong, and even if the woman can find a better husband she is still inferior, slightly inferior or not. I strongly believe that a woman lead household, where the woman can have the final say can be just as strong as a male lead household.
--- End quote ---
you can structure your marriage however your wish. you could cede all the power to your wife. the point is not to create a strict law; the point is to create a mode of thinking. in countless scriptures throughout the quran there will be instruction and then a fallback position, and possibly another fallback position. it provides a structure, it provides a mode of thinking. the quran states directly "there is no obligation in religion". if you want to cede authority to your wife 50/50 or 0/100 this is not some sort inherent sin on it's own. it would depend on your own rationale. ofcourse being the man it is your decision whether or not to cede the authority, but it is something that you could do.
--- Quote ---I personally want would like a completely equal household where no decisions are made unless we both agree, with compromises being necessary from both, and I personally don't want to believe in a God that says it's okay for my word to take precedent over my wife's. It's just my view.
--- End quote ---
you have this idea about islam that in many ways is misguided. the quran is not incompatible with the sorts of notions you put forward. there is actually alot of debate in the muslim world about the issue of women's rights and shari'a law for example. in iran the younger generations have been pushing towards more liberal interpretations of shari'a law. in palestine there had been some backlash when hamas took over as to whether hamas would try to impose a more strict form of shari'a law and force women to wear hijabs...there are liberal muslims, there are feminist muslims...etc. your criticisms here are misguided. while the quran is accepted as the word of god, some of the quran is actually contextual, making direct references to situations that were immediately relevant at the time. this is also allows for some of the malleability.
--- Quote ---To answer your last question; "if ultimately you are going with your morality why even bother with the scriptures at all?"
I don't bother with them. I read them to know them for educational puposes. I belive when Jesus said he cam for the sinners not the righteous, claiming htat good people existed and could exist with out his teachings because they already knew the teachings. I take a very philosphical approach to Christianity and it suits me well. It doesn't have to suit you.
--- End quote ---
i maintain that religion has more to offer than just morality. religion also tries to impart wisdom, knowledge and truth. this is far different than simple morality.
i
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