Lifestyle > Train of Thought
The hip-hop community will be the next segment of US soceity to embrace Islam
Shallow:
--- Quote from: Javy on April 16, 2006, 10:37:02 AM ---
--- Quote ---However my main point was that it takes more talent to write and record an average rock song than it does to write and record an average hip hop song.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---i taskes more talent to write and perfrom a mediocre Rock band hit than it does a very good rap song.
--- End quote ---
So which one is it?
--- End quote ---
Sorry for the confusion. Quality-wise it's mediocre (but let me explain my idea of mediocre in the next paragraph) vs very good rap song. The average thing was me trying to say a song in general. I should have worded it better.
--- Quote from: RBXtra (Rough Is The Texture) on April 16, 2006, 11:09:19 AM ---
--- Quote from: Shallow on April 16, 2006, 10:31:49 AM ---However my main point was that it takes more talent to write and record an average rock song than it does to write and record an average hip hop song. You give me a computer, a stack of records to sample from, and a microphone and I my self will produce a rap song that isn't much worse than most of the rap in the mainstream today (Infinte was talking about the Mainstream). You give me a piano, a guitar, a bass, drums, and I'll have a very difficult time coming up with anything. In gerenral it's harder to play instruments than play with a computer program (which it what most hip hop is today). Top level DJing and scratching maybe an art and a true talent but it has a very small place in today's mainstream hip hop scene (unfortunately).
--- End quote ---
No, you definitely could not. Even making "average" hip-hop beats is still like conducting a minor orchestra: It's all about arrangement. It's also important to keep in mind that sampling is (essentially) dead these days, and that most of the "samples" you hear on modern hip-hop records are actually played by other musicians (like on Dre's present-day records, where he has Scott Storch on the keyboards and Mike Elizondo doing guitar and bass). Hip-hop beats may be based upon a repetitive chord structure and looping, but coming up with something so catchy in the first place is still difficult. The average hip-hop beat is far more complex and has far more layers of depth than the average rock beat, IMO. Just look at all the beats available on Soundclick or in our own Lab section...do you really hear any that are even CLOSE to as good as what most hip-hop producers come up with? And those are made by cats who have computers, mics, and stacks of records to sample from.
Besides, it's interesting that you group all "rock" in the same category and say that just because it takes guitar, bass, and drums that means it takes more talent. Part of the appeal of punk in the 1970s' was that any frustrated British youth could basically get on stage and belt out some "glorious noise" even if they were inexperienced, and indeed, a lot of people wrote off punk as a genre for that reason. More recently, we've seen the same thing with Nirvana and the onset of "grunge" in the early-90s'.
--- End quote ---
Sampling in the sense of using a machine to record and loop may not be as common, but sampling in the sense of stealing older compositions making them the background for the rapping is still very common. Let's take My Name Is produced by Dre. Dre didn't write a single fucking note of that instrumental. He just heard Labi Siffre's "I Got The" about 2 minutes in and had his musicians replay it note for note. The talent in that song came out in the comedy and and the vocal chorus. Look at Kanye. I could easily make songs at the same quality as he does. His choruses aren't original, his beats and melodies are taken, and his lyrics and flow aren't that good, and yet he is considered very good.
Don't get me started on Punk. I said mediocre. I don't even consider most of Punk mediocre. It took some talent to be in The Clash or the Ramones, but a lot of the bands were just dicking around with instruments, screaming and whining about life. I'm talking about Led Zeppelin (not just the blues covers or taken rifts but the original stuff too), Bad Company, Pink Floyd, Bruce Springsteen, Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, GnR, Van Halen, etc.
Nirvana was hardly like the screaming punks of the Brit scene. Cobain was an extremely talented songwriter and lyricist. He had a great emoting voice and he could write and play some great guitar melodies. He called himself punk but his inspirations and influence went far beyond that.
I'll dick around on frooty loops or some shit program and come up with something (I'll get someone else to rap on it because my voice is shit for rap) but then I'll post it and if it's far worse than current mainstream rap I'll take your side.
Eihtball:
--- Quote from: Shallow on April 16, 2006, 06:04:28 PM ---Sampling in the sense of using a machine to record and loop may not be as common, but sampling in the sense of stealing older compositions making them the background for the rapping is still very common. Let's take My Name Is produced by Dre. Dre didn't write a single fucking note of that instrumental. He just heard Labi Siffre's "I Got The" about 2 minutes in and had his musicians replay it note for note. The talent in that song came out in the comedy and and the vocal chorus. Look at Kanye. I could easily make songs at the same quality as he does. His choruses aren't original, his beats and melodies are taken, and his lyrics and flow aren't that good, and yet he is considered very good.
--- End quote ---
I KNOW that hip-hop tracks are based on other people's melodies, beats, etc., but that is the point. I don't see why the hell you even listen to hip-hop (and appear on a hip-hop board) if you have so little appreciation for this art form. Hip-hop is not "stealing older compositions" - it's about stripping them down and rejuvinating them with new life, in other words, making it your own by putting a new twist on it. And it's actually not unprecedented in modern music...the bebop movement in jazz was more-or-less the same concept. Just as hip-hop was originally freestyling over existing funk/soul breaks, bebop was about improvisation over existing chord changes from other jazz records.
As far as your opinion about Kanye, I realize not everyone respects him as an MC (and I understand why), but I seriously doubt you you could come up with anything CLOSE to what he comes up with behind the boards.
--- Quote from: Shallow on April 16, 2006, 06:04:28 PM ---Don't get me started on Punk. I said mediocre. I don't even consider most of Punk mediocre. It took some talent to be in The Clash or the Ramones, but a lot of the bands were just dicking around with instruments, screaming and whining about life. I'm talking about Led Zeppelin (not just the blues covers or taken rifts but the original stuff too), Bad Company, Pink Floyd, Bruce Springsteen, Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, GnR, Van Halen, etc.
Nirvana was hardly like the screaming punks of the Brit scene. Cobain was an extremely talented songwriter and lyricist. He had a great emoting voice and he could write and play some great guitar melodies. He called himself punk but his inspirations and influence went far beyond that.
--- End quote ---
I never said Nirvana were screaming punks, but the simplicity and stripped-down sound of Cobain's guitar melodies did anger a lot of people, especially the heavy metal fanboys who were into complex machine gun-tempo solos. Musically, grunge was seen by some people as a bastard child of punk and metal when Nirvana first came out.
--- Quote from: Shallow on April 16, 2006, 06:04:28 PM ---I'll dick around on frooty loops or some shit program and come up with something (I'll get someone else to rap on it because my voice is shit for rap) but then I'll post it and if it's far worse than current mainstream rap I'll take your side.
--- End quote ---
Yeah, you do that, but I already know you ain't got a chance in hell. I've already told you before...there are a zillion cats fucking with computer programs like Frooty Loops who post their work on Soundclick and in DubCNN's Lab (see below this). Do you hear ANYTHING that's as good as what Kanye or Dr. Dre produce? If you have, you'd pretty much realize just how hard it is to create something on their level.
Here's my challenge to you...create a G-Funk beat of the sort that Dre or DJ Quik would have produced in the early-90s'. Do you even know the basic elements that define the G-Funk style? If so, then get to work.
J Bananas:
--- Quote from: Islamic Khalifah Sultan Abdul Hamid- 1908- on April 16, 2006, 05:56:22 AM ---Suratal Nasr-
"When comes the help of Allah
and you will see the people
enter Allah's religion in crowds
Celebrate the praises of the Lord
and pray for his forgiveness
For he is oft-returning in grace
and in mercy".
Just as hip-hop was started by the Pan African/Pan Islamic movements like the Zulu Nation, I believe that the fans of hip-hop (like myself) will soon represent a large block of American society embracing Islam. We grew up listening to so many rappers expressing Pan-Islam or atleast sympathetic to Islam and Muslims, that we have grown up with favourable views towards Islam. Even 2pac had a video in 1996 "I Ain't Mad At Ya" in which he gives encouragement to an old friend who converted to Islam.
We already know how many rappers are Muslim, but you will be suprised to find in the coming years how many fans of hip-hop will enter into Islam.
Look at the kids in school today, they are still trying to skateboard and listening to local rock artists who are no longer mainstream and will soon become irrelevant. And when it comes to young kids who are into hip-hop, there will always be ignorant hip-hop heads, but not everyone is going to settle for music that has no substance; and a life that has no meaning. Those who are conscious and are seeking to attain a higher level of conscious will soon embrace Islam as a means of learn knowledge and discipline.
--- End quote ---
maybe then you'll be that much closer to being black. or so you hope every night before you go to sleep.
Shallow:
--- Quote from: RBXtra (Rough Is The Texture) on April 16, 2006, 06:44:03 PM ---
--- Quote from: Shallow on April 16, 2006, 06:04:28 PM ---Sampling in the sense of using a machine to record and loop may not be as common, but sampling in the sense of stealing older compositions making them the background for the rapping is still very common. Let's take My Name Is produced by Dre. Dre didn't write a single fucking note of that instrumental. He just heard Labi Siffre's "I Got The" about 2 minutes in and had his musicians replay it note for note. The talent in that song came out in the comedy and and the vocal chorus. Look at Kanye. I could easily make songs at the same quality as he does. His choruses aren't original, his beats and melodies are taken, and his lyrics and flow aren't that good, and yet he is considered very good.
--- End quote ---
I KNOW that hip-hop tracks are based on other people's melodies, beats, etc., but that is the point. I don't see why the hell you even listen to hip-hop (and appear on a hip-hop board) if you have so little appreciation for this art form. Hip-hop is not "stealing older compositions" - it's about stripping them down and rejuvinating them with new life, in other words, making it your own by putting a new twist on it. And it's actually not unprecedented in modern music...the bebop movement in jazz was more-or-less the same concept. Just as hip-hop was originally freestyling over existing funk/soul breaks, bebop was about improvisation over existing chord changes from other jazz records.
As far as your opinion about Kanye, I realize not everyone respects him as an MC (and I understand why), but I seriously doubt you you could come up with anything CLOSE to what he comes up with behind the boards.
--- Quote from: Shallow on April 16, 2006, 06:04:28 PM ---Don't get me started on Punk. I said mediocre. I don't even consider most of Punk mediocre. It took some talent to be in The Clash or the Ramones, but a lot of the bands were just dicking around with instruments, screaming and whining about life. I'm talking about Led Zeppelin (not just the blues covers or taken rifts but the original stuff too), Bad Company, Pink Floyd, Bruce Springsteen, Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, GnR, Van Halen, etc.
Nirvana was hardly like the screaming punks of the Brit scene. Cobain was an extremely talented songwriter and lyricist. He had a great emoting voice and he could write and play some great guitar melodies. He called himself punk but his inspirations and influence went far beyond that.
--- End quote ---
I never said Nirvana were screaming punks, but the simplicity and stripped-down sound of Cobain's guitar melodies did anger a lot of people, especially the heavy metal fanboys who were into complex machine gun-tempo solos. Musically, grunge was seen by some people as a bastard child of punk and metal when Nirvana first came out.
--- Quote from: Shallow on April 16, 2006, 06:04:28 PM ---I'll dick around on frooty loops or some shit program and come up with something (I'll get someone else to rap on it because my voice is shit for rap) but then I'll post it and if it's far worse than current mainstream rap I'll take your side.
--- End quote ---
Yeah, you do that, but I already know you ain't got a chance in hell. I've already told you before...there are a zillion cats fucking with computer programs like Frooty Loops who post their work on Soundclick and in DubCNN's Lab (see below this). Do you hear ANYTHING that's as good as what Kanye or Dr. Dre produce? If you have, you'd pretty much realize just how hard it is to create something on their level.
Here's my challenge to you...create a G-Funk beat of the sort that Dre or DJ Quik would have produced in the early-90s'. Do you even know the basic elements that define the G-Funk style? If so, then get to work.
--- End quote ---
1.) It's the artform that pisses me off, it's hte fact that these days so many of the samples are batant copies with little done to chacge them other than the tempo, and then the guy who produced them gets so much credit as a genius composer. Listen to the original samples of G Thang or Jesus Walks and you'll hear that the main part is all there. Adding a few bells and whistles in the background doesn't make you a genius.
2) No argument. I just wanted to make sure we both felt Cobain had more musical talent than the Punk bands.
3) G Funk type beat? I'll do my best, and let you know when it's done.
Eihtball:
--- Quote from: Shallow on April 17, 2006, 06:45:43 AM ---1.) It's the artform that pisses me off, it's hte fact that these days so many of the samples are batant copies with little done to chacge them other than the tempo, and then the guy who produced them gets so much credit as a genius composer. Listen to the original samples of G Thang or Jesus Walks and you'll hear that the main part is all there. Adding a few bells and whistles in the background doesn't make you a genius.
--- End quote ---
You think I don't know the samples? LOL, I grew up in the 80s', and my folks were from the R&B/funk/soul generation, so I grew up listening to a lot of the artists that rappers would soon be sampling ad nauseum, folks like James Brown, George Clinton and Parliament/Funkadelic, Zapp, Issac Hayes, the Ohio Players, you name it. Moms was bumping "I Wanna Do Something Freaky To You" all the time, so I recognized the sample the moment Dre used it in "Nuthin But A G Thang". But that's part of what made it so special to me...these producers managed to re-arrange it in a new way that made it sound fresh again. THAT is their "genius", the part of the art form that you could never appreciate.
Seriously, stop listening to hip-hop...muh'fuckas like you are not needed.
--- Quote from: Shallow on April 17, 2006, 06:45:43 AM ---3) G Funk type beat? I'll do my best, and let you know when it's done.
--- End quote ---
And I'll be ready to laugh at you when your ass realizes just how wrong you were...IF you're really true to your word (which I doubt you'll be).
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