Lifestyle > Sports & Entertainment
The Official Professional Wrestling Thread (WWE, TNA, etc.)
Shallow:
--- Quote from: M Dogg on April 02, 2010, 12:47:04 PM ---LOL at Austin and everything staying the same. You might be right, only that Hogan turning heel completely changed the game and brought back fans lost from the steroid trials. What's funny is you ignore the steroid trial and effect it had in both WWF and WCW. WCW had Randy Savage, Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, Sting, Arn Anderson and they can't better the WWF in ratings. The WWF had Bret Hart, Mr. Perfect, Shawn Michaels, Diesel, Razor Ramon, Lex Lugar and Doink the Clown and they are not doing nearly as well as they did pre-steroid trial. Seriously, the steroid trail had more to do with decrease viewership than Hulk Hogan jumping to WCW, or Bret Hart being champ. Hogan turning heel helped WCW recover, and Michaels jumping ship never would have had that effect. Plus no Screw Job, no Corporation, since it was the screw job that gained McMahon his heat, which gave Michaels his heat and which gave Austin an authority figure to fight. Pre-screw job, Austin is just a bad ass building a reputation, but the screw job gave him someone to fight. His fighting against being a McMahon puppet, and he won the title from the man who helped McMahon screw Bret. Michaels himself was never a huge draw because of the era he was champ, but his actions, and McMahon's action is what helped the WWF come out of the pits of low ratings and recreate it's self in the attitude era.
--- End quote ---
I meant everything ending up the same. Hogan turning made WCW huge again, but either way WCW would have went under and WWE would have stood alone. If I'm underplaying the steroids you're seriously over playing. Fans jumped off not because Hogan did this or Hogan did that. The numbers suffered because kids got older and weren't interested again. First the nWo and then Austin made those same kids who were teens now like wrestling again. It was mainly the same audience in 87 as it was in 98. The difference was that same audience was 11 years older.
The WWF tried with HBK and Bret Hart to make a product not for kids. I'm just a sexy didn't cut it. Just face it. He's not a star. And when he made his huge comeback at 38 and the ratings, buyrates, merch, or attendance didn't budge. Same with Bret. He comes back for the angle of the ages and nothing changes.
Austin needing Vince is the same BS argument as Hogan needing Andre. It made more money sure but Austin on top going against the Rock didn't need a corporate Vince on screen. But let's be real. The screw job turned a lot of heads but Vince was always a glutton for the spotlight and eventually would have turned heel anyway. To say the screw job was the only reason doesn't fly with me. It helped give him legit heat.
Let me be very clear about one thing. This has nothing to do with my bias. I was never a Stone Cold fan. I didn't like most of the attitude era and always watched Nitro before Raw. I thought the Austin McMahon angle was boring. I thought Rock this is your life was a waste of my time and even tuned out for most of it when it aired. But I know draws when I see them, and as much as heel Vince, DX, the screw job, or Vince Russo Springer style TV helped it wouldn't have meant shit with out Steve Austin and later the Rock. They would have done 3.5s the whole attitude era.
M Dogg™:
--- Quote from: Shallow on April 02, 2010, 04:08:51 PM ---
--- Quote from: M Dogg on April 02, 2010, 12:47:04 PM ---LOL at Austin and everything staying the same. You might be right, only that Hogan turning heel completely changed the game and brought back fans lost from the steroid trials. What's funny is you ignore the steroid trial and effect it had in both WWF and WCW. WCW had Randy Savage, Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, Sting, Arn Anderson and they can't better the WWF in ratings. The WWF had Bret Hart, Mr. Perfect, Shawn Michaels, Diesel, Razor Ramon, Lex Lugar and Doink the Clown and they are not doing nearly as well as they did pre-steroid trial. Seriously, the steroid trail had more to do with decrease viewership than Hulk Hogan jumping to WCW, or Bret Hart being champ. Hogan turning heel helped WCW recover, and Michaels jumping ship never would have had that effect. Plus no Screw Job, no Corporation, since it was the screw job that gained McMahon his heat, which gave Michaels his heat and which gave Austin an authority figure to fight. Pre-screw job, Austin is just a bad ass building a reputation, but the screw job gave him someone to fight. His fighting against being a McMahon puppet, and he won the title from the man who helped McMahon screw Bret. Michaels himself was never a huge draw because of the era he was champ, but his actions, and McMahon's action is what helped the WWF come out of the pits of low ratings and recreate it's self in the attitude era.
--- End quote ---
I meant everything ending up the same. Hogan turning made WCW huge again, but either way WCW would have went under and WWE would have stood alone. If I'm underplaying the steroids you're seriously over playing. Fans jumped off not because Hogan did this or Hogan did that. The numbers suffered because kids got older and weren't interested again. First the nWo and then Austin made those same kids who were teens now like wrestling again. It was mainly the same audience in 87 as it was in 98. The difference was that same audience was 11 years older.
The WWF tried with HBK and Bret Hart to make a product not for kids. I'm just a sexy didn't cut it. Just face it. He's not a star. And when he made his huge comeback at 38 and the ratings, buyrates, merch, or attendance didn't budge. Same with Bret. He comes back for the angle of the ages and nothing changes.
Austin needing Vince is the same BS argument as Hogan needing Andre. It made more money sure but Austin on top going against the Rock didn't need a corporate Vince on screen. But let's be real. The screw job turned a lot of heads but Vince was always a glutton for the spotlight and eventually would have turned heel anyway. To say the screw job was the only reason doesn't fly with me. It helped give him legit heat.
Let me be very clear about one thing. This has nothing to do with my bias. I was never a Stone Cold fan. I didn't like most of the attitude era and always watched Nitro before Raw. I thought the Austin McMahon angle was boring. I thought Rock this is your life was a waste of my time and even tuned out for most of it when it aired. But I know draws when I see them, and as much as heel Vince, DX, the screw job, or Vince Russo Springer style TV helped it wouldn't have meant shit with out Steve Austin and later the Rock. They would have done 3.5s the whole attitude era.
--- End quote ---
Here's the thing, we are going to keep going back and forth because we don't have any common ground, and honestly I think your full of shit in this argument, but it is what it is. Here is the thing. I never said Michaels was a draw, I said he could have been a draw, especially after the screw job because of the heat put on him and McMahon, but god had other plans for him and it ended better for his life. Now you seem to be a hater of Michaels, that's fine, he did a lot of wrong and you are entitled with your opinion. I am a lot more forgiving, as I honestly didn't like Michaels at first, especuially the whole boyhood dream Michaels or the I Lost My Smile Michaels. Now once he started owning the Canadian crowds, came out with DX and then truly screwed Bret, I had a whole new respect for him and I truly believe him vs. Austin in the summer of 1998 would have been one of the top drawing, greatest feuds ever in wrestling history. Austin was a draw, but as I said, Michaels had so much heat that it was crazy. Now the reality was it never came to be, and Austin did a great job of being a draw himself, and the Rock came and became that rival that Austin needed. But the Austin attitude era was not fully matured yet, and it was Michaels DX that had the WWF at least competing with the nWo. Now WCW dropped the ball with their Starrcade '97 match with Hogan and Sting, and that helped the WWF make up some ground.
As for the audience, I want to clarify this. When it was 1987, and Hogan was fighting Andre, it was not the kids responsible to making Hogan the draw he was, it was the fathers. Fathers saw a produced they could buy, a hero they didn't mind their kids looking up to, and something that father and sons can bond doing, just like baseball, football and basketball. When the Steroid Trial came, fathers stop taking their sons to the arena, they stop buying their sons video games, and they stop letting their sons watch wrestling because Hulk Hogan does drugs. It truly hurt the WWF's drawing power, and it also hurt WCW as they signed Hulk Hogan and Randy Savage and Hulk Hogan couldn't out draw Doink the Clown during that time. Don't believe me, Raw ratings during a Doink the Clown segment beat WCW Saturday Night during a Hulk Hogan segment. That's how bad the Steroid Trial hurt wrestling as a whole. But you don't think it did because the kids eventually came back, but young kids never did until the last 5 years since John Cena started main eventing Wrestlemania. WWF/E had to cater to teens/young adults because they had a history of watching wrestling, and they could be brought back with someone like Austin and the Rock, and some Sable tits. Sadly for Michaels, he missed it all, but much of the Attitude era started by the original DX, and he would have been perfect to fit in that era.
Shallow:
--- Quote from: M Dogg on April 02, 2010, 09:38:41 PM ---
--- Quote from: Shallow on April 02, 2010, 04:08:51 PM ---
--- Quote from: M Dogg on April 02, 2010, 12:47:04 PM ---LOL at Austin and everything staying the same. You might be right, only that Hogan turning heel completely changed the game and brought back fans lost from the steroid trials. What's funny is you ignore the steroid trial and effect it had in both WWF and WCW. WCW had Randy Savage, Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, Sting, Arn Anderson and they can't better the WWF in ratings. The WWF had Bret Hart, Mr. Perfect, Shawn Michaels, Diesel, Razor Ramon, Lex Lugar and Doink the Clown and they are not doing nearly as well as they did pre-steroid trial. Seriously, the steroid trail had more to do with decrease viewership than Hulk Hogan jumping to WCW, or Bret Hart being champ. Hogan turning heel helped WCW recover, and Michaels jumping ship never would have had that effect. Plus no Screw Job, no Corporation, since it was the screw job that gained McMahon his heat, which gave Michaels his heat and which gave Austin an authority figure to fight. Pre-screw job, Austin is just a bad ass building a reputation, but the screw job gave him someone to fight. His fighting against being a McMahon puppet, and he won the title from the man who helped McMahon screw Bret. Michaels himself was never a huge draw because of the era he was champ, but his actions, and McMahon's action is what helped the WWF come out of the pits of low ratings and recreate it's self in the attitude era.
--- End quote ---
I meant everything ending up the same. Hogan turning made WCW huge again, but either way WCW would have went under and WWE would have stood alone. If I'm underplaying the steroids you're seriously over playing. Fans jumped off not because Hogan did this or Hogan did that. The numbers suffered because kids got older and weren't interested again. First the nWo and then Austin made those same kids who were teens now like wrestling again. It was mainly the same audience in 87 as it was in 98. The difference was that same audience was 11 years older.
The WWF tried with HBK and Bret Hart to make a product not for kids. I'm just a sexy didn't cut it. Just face it. He's not a star. And when he made his huge comeback at 38 and the ratings, buyrates, merch, or attendance didn't budge. Same with Bret. He comes back for the angle of the ages and nothing changes.
Austin needing Vince is the same BS argument as Hogan needing Andre. It made more money sure but Austin on top going against the Rock didn't need a corporate Vince on screen. But let's be real. The screw job turned a lot of heads but Vince was always a glutton for the spotlight and eventually would have turned heel anyway. To say the screw job was the only reason doesn't fly with me. It helped give him legit heat.
Let me be very clear about one thing. This has nothing to do with my bias. I was never a Stone Cold fan. I didn't like most of the attitude era and always watched Nitro before Raw. I thought the Austin McMahon angle was boring. I thought Rock this is your life was a waste of my time and even tuned out for most of it when it aired. But I know draws when I see them, and as much as heel Vince, DX, the screw job, or Vince Russo Springer style TV helped it wouldn't have meant shit with out Steve Austin and later the Rock. They would have done 3.5s the whole attitude era.
--- End quote ---
Here's the thing, we are going to keep going back and forth because we don't have any common ground, and honestly I think your full of shit in this argument, but it is what it is. Here is the thing. I never said Michaels was a draw, I said he could have been a draw, especially after the screw job because of the heat put on him and McMahon, but god had other plans for him and it ended better for his life. Now you seem to be a hater of Michaels, that's fine, he did a lot of wrong and you are entitled with your opinion. I am a lot more forgiving, as I honestly didn't like Michaels at first, especuially the whole boyhood dream Michaels or the I Lost My Smile Michaels. Now once he started owning the Canadian crowds, came out with DX and then truly screwed Bret, I had a whole new respect for him and I truly believe him vs. Austin in the summer of 1998 would have been one of the top drawing, greatest feuds ever in wrestling history. Austin was a draw, but as I said, Michaels had so much heat that it was crazy. Now the reality was it never came to be, and Austin did a great job of being a draw himself, and the Rock came and became that rival that Austin needed. But the Austin attitude era was not fully matured yet, and it was Michaels DX that had the WWF at least competing with the nWo. Now WCW dropped the ball with their Starrcade '97 match with Hogan and Sting, and that helped the WWF make up some ground.
As for the audience, I want to clarify this. When it was 1987, and Hogan was fighting Andre, it was not the kids responsible to making Hogan the draw he was, it was the fathers. Fathers saw a produced they could buy, a hero they didn't mind their kids looking up to, and something that father and sons can bond doing, just like baseball, football and basketball. When the Steroid Trial came, fathers stop taking their sons to the arena, they stop buying their sons video games, and they stop letting their sons watch wrestling because Hulk Hogan does drugs. It truly hurt the WWF's drawing power, and it also hurt WCW as they signed Hulk Hogan and Randy Savage and Hulk Hogan couldn't out draw Doink the Clown during that time. Don't believe me, Raw ratings during a Doink the Clown segment beat WCW Saturday Night during a Hulk Hogan segment. That's how bad the Steroid Trial hurt wrestling as a whole. But you don't think it did because the kids eventually came back, but young kids never did until the last 5 years since John Cena started main eventing Wrestlemania. WWF/E had to cater to teens/young adults because they had a history of watching wrestling, and they could be brought back with someone like Austin and the Rock, and some Sable tits. Sadly for Michaels, he missed it all, but much of the Attitude era started by the original DX, and he would have been perfect to fit in that era.
--- End quote ---
I never said you said Michaels was a draw and I even agreed that attached to Austin would have been the second best feud for 98. The best drawing feud for 98 would have involved the man who had the most heat coming off the screw job next to Bret and Vince; Owen Hart, who for money making purposes should have started out in the Black Hart gimmick, had a back and forth saving each other from Vince's corportation and in the end have Owen turn on Austin and join Vince as the Corporate Champion.
You're also over reating on the heat HBK had coming off SS. The first Raw after the screwjob was huge heel heat but they were in Canada. The next weeks when they attacked Slaughter or turned on Anvil it wasn't nearly as huge. You have to remember that the entire several months leading up to SS Hart was the biggest heel in the country and DX was almost babyface going against him defending America. And HBK was never all that great a heel. The cool heel never works right. It didn't work for the Outsiders, or Flair, or the Rock. Rock and Flair are famous for playing heel but only started drawing when they played face because it's hard to root for the heel against a top cool heel unless the face in question is as big or a bigger draw.
Owen was a real heel. The only people that cheered for Owen's heel promos and style were the few that liked that sort of stuff, like me, but the vast majority hated the Owen character and in turn loved those who went against him. If the people don't desperately want you to lose you're not that great a heel. It's what did the Outsiders and DX both in. They had a neat gimmick that people loved and attracted attention but in the end faces are what drive a company and when you bury your faces with witty jokes and being more hip to the scene than they are it kills business. Austin was so over and better at being cool it didn't matter but against anyone else HBK would have been a terrible heel. DX was too funny to hate.
We're simply going to have to agree to disagree on the steroids case. You think the fall in business was fathers not taking their kids because of steroids. I think it was the kids not caring as much about the wrestlers that had gone stale and not begging their fathers to take them. Hogan couldn't draw well in 94 and 95 because he was stale and WCW had some of the worst bookers and writers on the planet. Have you seen some of that Hogan vs Dungeon of Doom stuff? If they used those storylines to promote Hogan/Andre in 87 it would have fallen flat. So no way will it work in 95.
Once it all turned around in WCW creatively fathers were taking their kids back just the same. Hogan stood trial in July of 94. By July of 96 WCW was packing houses. Hogan was a heel ad his turn from face was eventful because he was a hero, not because he was damaged goods. And when kids were taken by their fathers and cheered for Lex Luger, you don't think every father and their mother knew Luger was juiced up?
Excuses, excuses. Every wrestler has them when they can't draw or get over, but all you need is star power, a strong gimmick and solid booking. All that goes hand in hand. If Steve Austin was brought today and booked by the current staff he might have been able to be the biggest star but he'd never become a real draw.
No one is a draw anymore and it's not their fault. They don't get the chance. In the old days it was, here's your time, make money. Now it's all about what the creative team has in mind for you. What you say and how you say it. The difference for me with Hart/HBK is that I never saw or see anything that makes me think they could have been real draws. Hart was only a draw in Canada because he was Canadian. So I think even wit the right booking and style they'd still fall to the wayside. Hennig on the other hand I think had what it takes. He just got unlucky. I saw a star in his AWA stuff. I never saw that same star in anything I've seen from Hart or HBK.
Geesta:
Yall are fighting about the fucking past...
who cares who was the best then... we all know when the kliq was together they were the best wrestlers of there era and they were gonna be in the game for generations
only person who over came that was the Hart family because no matter how much Vince and Bret act like they hate eachother on TV nowadays.. deep down they know they wouldn't be shit without each other... The Harts wouldn't have their legacy and Vince wouldn't have his company
now NWO ran wrestling for a while there is no doubt in that (ask me why they did at that time if you dont agree)... but no matter what HBK was always called the show stopper for a reason... Stone cold shitted on anyone at WCW at that time besides maybe Sting
when Bret Hart went to WCW and after Owen died i tuned out of wrestling for years
till around 2007
now that im back in to it... all i can say is wrestling will never be as good as it once was... but i still enjoy the fundementals of it
Undertaker owns WWE right now in terms of drawing power
(unless The Rock comes back)
TNA well i look at TNA as an underground type shit... even though NWO is old as fuck now its good to watch them be the bad guys... i could care less about Hogan and Flair and the rest of the scrubs on that shit... Sting always gets my attention though...
but in all honestly i think the girls at TNA are way better then the wack ass WWE divas and the TNA hoes have better matches
i would fuck the shit out of Tara
anyone agree to disagree?
M Dogg™:
LOL...
I will say this, on the topic of what's going on today... I can say it now...
JACK SWAGGER IS CHAMPION!!!This is a great day, because one of the best young talents came out from being lost in the shuffle to becoming World Champion. A great day and hopefully on Smackdown Swagger will do great things.
Also, Cryme Tyme is broken up... :'( I can't say I didn't see this coming, but this soon? I know that Shag wants to get into acting, and JTG is more of a wrestler who wanted Cryme Tyme to be a pure tag team and eventually these goals will clash. Vince was also never high on Shag, and he was never going to push JTG so that's why they originally got release in 2007. But they got over and Vince had to bring them back. The only thing is now, at best JTG is Marty Jannetty and Shag at best will be the Warlord. I say team JTG up with someone else because Vince will never push him as a singles wrestler, and look for Shag to be released by the summer. Sadly JTG said he wanted Cryme Tyme to be a true tag team that last, but that was not the case and Shag will be gone by years end, JTG mill job squad it out unless he gets a new partner.
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