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The Official Professional Wrestling Thread (WWE, TNA, etc.)
M Dogg™:
--- Quote from: Shallow on April 01, 2010, 07:32:05 AM ---No one is doubting his in ring ability. I'm a Canadian who grew up hating HBK and just the other day I had a debate in favor of HBK over Hart as an in ring performer. I'm not even using the politics as a reason why I hate him. What I'm saying is he was given shot after shot at being a star and he couldn't get it done. That means he didn't have it. Neither did Benoit or Kurt Angle. There is a difference between getting over and becoming a draw. The WWF hasn't had a draw since The Rock, and the last draw created in wrestling was the short lived Goldberg.
There are very few of these types of wrestlers in history. Off the top of my head since 1980 the only draws I can think of are Harley Race, Ric Flair, Dusty Rhodes, Hogan, Piper, Road Warriors, Ultimate Warrior, Vader in WCW, Lawler in his market, Hall and Nash as the Outsiders, Hollywood Hogan, Steve Austin, the Rock and Goldberg. Everyone else that won the title was just a main eventer who got over and did well.
Everyone one of these guys above in their prime could become draws in the WWE today if pushed the same way they were pushed when they became draws. Shawn Michaels got an as big or bigger push than any of these guys and it didn't work. DX was cool and all but it was a second rate nWo that got more over thanks to the anti-American angle by the Harts, but it was never a draw. A draw means you are a performer that brings people into the building that wouldn't already come and that makes people that don't buy merch buy merch. An over main eventer is a guy that makes people cheer after they come or gets them to buy this shirt instead of that shirt.
No money would have been lost if Hart, HBK, or Hennig never existed. That's all I'm saying.
--- End quote ---
I will argue you with HBK. I truly think that post-Screw Job, when HBK had as much heat as the Mr. McMahon character, he would have drawn almost as much as a Roddy Piper did as a villain in the 80's. The Austin era was rising, but had Austin and Michaels carried a program over the summer, it would have been one of the biggest draws in wrestling history. As I said, Michaels never had that time between 32-36, and in that time he could have been one of the top drawing heels ever. His heat was unmatched by any heel outside of Hollywood Hogan, and actually in 1997-98 his heat might have matched Hollywood Hogans. Don't believe, watch an event then, go back and watch Michaels vs. Shamrock, or Michaels vs. Undertaker, and you'll see someone who had so much heat.
But you still argue this draw thing. Just because one person said GOAT, and you put drawing power into GOAT. I like to judge in-ring performance, and I'd call Kurt Angle the best in-ring since Flair of the 80's. With that though, Hart/Henning/Michaels, when I mentioned them I mentioned them as how I view them. They were smaller guys, and they followed the Hulk Hogan era when large men ruled the main event. The 80's in the WWF was Hulk Hogan vs. the monster of the month, then the 90's started off the Ultimate Warrior being the strongest biggest muscle man. Basically Hart/Henning/Michaels in my eyes did not have to be a big draw, because they were changing the face of the WWF. Sure the WWF had Ric Flair and Randy Savage hold the belt but never did they base their whole main event off smaller more athletic wrestlers. And as I said before, these guys were given an opportunity at the worst time, as Vince McMahon was recovering from the steroid trails. But you can ask Austin himself, HBK/Hart/Henning, those were the guys that made it possible for someone like Austin, who was once a great mat wrestler, to make the run that he did and Vince to have the confidence that he did in Austin.
And it's 2010, the 2000's are over, let alone the 90's. Don't you think it's time to make peace with the past??
Shallow:
--- Quote from: M Dogg on April 02, 2010, 07:30:11 AM ---
--- Quote from: Shallow on April 01, 2010, 07:32:05 AM ---No one is doubting his in ring ability. I'm a Canadian who grew up hating HBK and just the other day I had a debate in favor of HBK over Hart as an in ring performer. I'm not even using the politics as a reason why I hate him. What I'm saying is he was given shot after shot at being a star and he couldn't get it done. That means he didn't have it. Neither did Benoit or Kurt Angle. There is a difference between getting over and becoming a draw. The WWF hasn't had a draw since The Rock, and the last draw created in wrestling was the short lived Goldberg.
There are very few of these types of wrestlers in history. Off the top of my head since 1980 the only draws I can think of are Harley Race, Ric Flair, Dusty Rhodes, Hogan, Piper, Road Warriors, Ultimate Warrior, Vader in WCW, Lawler in his market, Hall and Nash as the Outsiders, Hollywood Hogan, Steve Austin, the Rock and Goldberg. Everyone else that won the title was just a main eventer who got over and did well.
Everyone one of these guys above in their prime could become draws in the WWE today if pushed the same way they were pushed when they became draws. Shawn Michaels got an as big or bigger push than any of these guys and it didn't work. DX was cool and all but it was a second rate nWo that got more over thanks to the anti-American angle by the Harts, but it was never a draw. A draw means you are a performer that brings people into the building that wouldn't already come and that makes people that don't buy merch buy merch. An over main eventer is a guy that makes people cheer after they come or gets them to buy this shirt instead of that shirt.
No money would have been lost if Hart, HBK, or Hennig never existed. That's all I'm saying.
--- End quote ---
I will argue you with HBK. I truly think that post-Screw Job, when HBK had as much heat as the Mr. McMahon character, he would have drawn almost as much as a Roddy Piper did as a villain in the 80's. The Austin era was rising, but had Austin and Michaels carried a program over the summer, it would have been one of the biggest draws in wrestling history. As I said, Michaels never had that time between 32-36, and in that time he could have been one of the top drawing heels ever. His heat was unmatched by any heel outside of Hollywood Hogan, and actually in 1997-98 his heat might have matched Hollywood Hogans. Don't believe, watch an event then, go back and watch Michaels vs. Shamrock, or Michaels vs. Undertaker, and you'll see someone who had so much heat.
But you still argue this draw thing. Just because one person said GOAT, and you put drawing power into GOAT. I like to judge in-ring performance, and I'd call Kurt Angle the best in-ring since Flair of the 80's. With that though, Hart/Henning/Michaels, when I mentioned them I mentioned them as how I view them. They were smaller guys, and they followed the Hulk Hogan era when large men ruled the main event. The 80's in the WWF was Hulk Hogan vs. the monster of the month, then the 90's started off the Ultimate Warrior being the strongest biggest muscle man. Basically Hart/Henning/Michaels in my eyes did not have to be a big draw, because they were changing the face of the WWF. Sure the WWF had Ric Flair and Randy Savage hold the belt but never did they base their whole main event off smaller more athletic wrestlers. And as I said before, these guys were given an opportunity at the worst time, as Vince McMahon was recovering from the steroid trails. But you can ask Austin himself, HBK/Hart/Henning, those were the guys that made it possible for someone like Austin, who was once a great mat wrestler, to make the run that he did and Vince to have the confidence that he did in Austin.
And it's 2010, the 2000's are over, let alone the 90's. Don't you think it's time to make peace with the past??
--- End quote ---
What peace with the past? I loved Bret Hart during the whole time and Hennig was always one of my very favourites. HBK was marketed to teenage girls so I never really cared for him as a teen but in my adult years I praise his in ring abilities as high as anyone else does.
HBK always had heat, heel of face. He was great at getting heat. But getting heat from fans that are going to come anyway and getting fans to show up when they wouldn't have already come is a different story. All this 32-36 crap doesn't fly with me. HBK was marketed as a young man and a girl attraction and he was good at it. He was a young punk type of heel too. The Rock achieved the same kind of push and drew all he could draw in his late 20s and if you think a 25 year old HBK could have drawn like the Rock between 99 and 2002 then you're smoking crack.
Of course he would have drawn more with Austin through the summer than before Austin. That's my point. Everyone draws more with Austin but it's not them doing the drawing. It's Austin. What makes a top draw, or a real draw? A guy you can take on the road and create so much buzz from town to town that you're not just filling arenas you're creating such a high demand that ticket prices nearly double and the places still sell out, ratings nearly double, buyrates nearly double, that guys merchandise not only lesds the company but turns such a profit you can't afford to take away his TV time.
With HBK they didn't just not double, they dipped. He wasn't the guy, plain and simple. HBK was a great main event complimentary piece, but never a guy you build a Mania round, unless you've got nothing else. Just like HHH has been this past decade.
And I love how you're crediting Bret/Hennig/HBK as the reason smaller guys were allowed to get pushed. First of all, none of those guys were any bigger than Savage, and I almost forgot about him completely and should have added him to my drawers list. My bad. He got over in the height of the steroids monster era as a great worker and a great talker. He got the title for a full year in the Hogan era.
Hart/Hennig/HBK were not the reason the WWE could get away from the big man days. They were pushed only because Vince wanted desperately to get away from it and in 1992 there were plenty of smaller guys Vince could have pushed or brought in from WCW to push.
Hennig was his own worst enemy. Hart was mispushed from the start. Too fast too soon and even sabotaged by Hogan. But when the dust settled Hart had his chance to shine well after the steroid era was out of everyone's minds.
But HBK has no excuse. He didn't get the rocket on his back until 95 and they shot him to the moon in 96. They built a plethora of guys around him and set up the matches with care. But HBK was not the guy. If they did the exact same thing with a 95/96 Austin coming off his ECW gimmick I'd argue it would have worked, maybe not as well as Stone Cold did in 98/99 but he still would have drawn money. Drawn meaning create new money.
In hindsight Hart was the guy for WM10 to WM12 but he needed a better transition to the top. It should have been Flair/Savage and Piper feuding for the title between 8 and 9 and Hart should have come in to the mix and win it by 10 off of one of those guys. Hart should have held the belt for the most part until 12 where Vader should have taken it and Hart should have won the rematch as returning ex-champ for 13. By 14 Austin is ready to take it from monster heel Vader and as his main villain as champ Bret Hart would have joined the Corperate McMahon and they would have feuded until 15.
With that carefull planning and HBK never getting the rocket the screw job would never have had to have happened. HBK would have left with Hall and Nash to WCW and probably have been the third guy. HHH and 123 Kid would have followed and I'm not even sure if Hogan would have ended up turning in that scenario. But everything would have been better off in the end.
But it doesn't matter because Steve Austin happened and the end results are all the same.
M Dogg™:
LOL at Austin and everything staying the same. You might be right, only that Hogan turning heel completely changed the game and brought back fans lost from the steroid trials. What's funny is you ignore the steroid trial and effect it had in both WWF and WCW. WCW had Randy Savage, Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, Sting, Arn Anderson and they can't better the WWF in ratings. The WWF had Bret Hart, Mr. Perfect, Shawn Michaels, Diesel, Razor Ramon, Lex Lugar and Doink the Clown and they are not doing nearly as well as they did pre-steroid trial. Seriously, the steroid trail had more to do with decrease viewership than Hulk Hogan jumping to WCW, or Bret Hart being champ. Hogan turning heel helped WCW recover, and Michaels jumping ship never would have had that effect. Plus no Screw Job, no Corporation, since it was the screw job that gained McMahon his heat, which gave Michaels his heat and which gave Austin an authority figure to fight. Pre-screw job, Austin is just a bad ass building a reputation, but the screw job gave him someone to fight. His fighting against being a McMahon puppet, and he won the title from the man who helped McMahon screw Bret. Michaels himself was never a huge draw because of the era he was champ, but his actions, and McMahon's action is what helped the WWF come out of the pits of low ratings and recreate it's self in the attitude era.
UKnowWhatItIs: welcome to my traps....game over:
Am I the only one who thought Wrestlemania was shit & the last match was the only good one?? Damn & the fuckin crowd, their city must suck. Wrestlemania 26=RAW: Deluxe Edition.
Sikotic™:
--- Quote from: UKnowWhatItIs on April 02, 2010, 02:22:35 PM ---Am I the only one who thought Wrestlemania was shit & the last match was the only good one?? Damn & the fuckin crowd, their city must suck. Wrestlemania 26=RAW: Deluxe Edition.
--- End quote ---
Agreed.
That may have been the worst Wrestlemania crowd ever. They should be lucky that WWE wanted to bring their biggest show to dusty ass Arizona, giving them a economic boost, but they were pretty dead all night except for the main event. Then again, they didn't have much to work with. No match stood out as painful to watch except for McMahon vs. Hart, but none of the matches outside of the main event were stand outs either. Rey vs. Punk would of been good if they were given more time. Cena vs. Batista was given too much time. Edge vs. Jericho was just a complete letdown.
Next year will be in Atlanta, so the crowd will definitely be better.
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