The Official Professional Wrestling Thread (WWE, TNA, etc.)

[Geesta]

Swagger is gonna win the title after he cash's in the money?

fuck it i think Swagger will be the next victim of the undertaker

[Sikotic™]

I don't care about the politics of it all. As a performer, HBK was great. Before his injury in 98 and after his return in 02. He was great. Nobody can deny that he put on some of the best matches and was the go-to guy in WWE during his final run. Give me a guy who put on better matches than HBK? HE made Cena and washed up Flair look great in the ring. He could of been the biggest dick on earth and I don't care. Doesn't concern me.

[JohnnyL]

I don't care about the politics of it all. As a performer, HBK was great. Before his injury in 98 and after his return in 02. He was great. Nobody can deny that he put on some of the best matches and was the go-to guy in WWE during his final run. Give me a guy who put on better matches than HBK? HE made Cena and washed up Flair look great in the ring. He could of been the biggest dick on earth and I don't care. Doesn't concern me.

 I agree.  In a WWE that no longer has a Benoit, or an Angle, or a Bret Hart (in his prime), or an Eddie Guerrero, it seemed to me that HBK was one of the few guys in the WWE that you could still count on putting on a solid workrate match.  I don't know about HBK as a person, but he was a solid in-ring performer.

[Shallow]

No one is doubting his in ring ability. I'm a Canadian who grew up hating HBK and just the other day I had a debate in favor of HBK over Hart as an in ring performer. I'm not even using the politics as a reason why I hate him. What I'm saying is he was given shot after shot at being a star and he couldn't get it done. That means he didn't have it. Neither did Benoit or Kurt Angle. There is a difference between getting over and becoming a draw. The WWF hasn't had a draw since The Rock, and the last draw created in wrestling was the short lived Goldberg.

There are very few of these types of wrestlers in history. Off the top of my head since 1980 the only draws I can think of are Harley Race, Ric Flair, Dusty Rhodes, Hogan, Piper, Road Warriors, Ultimate Warrior, Vader in WCW, Lawler in his market, Hall and Nash as the Outsiders, Hollywood Hogan, Steve Austin, the Rock and Goldberg. Everyone else that won the title was just a main eventer who got over and did well.

Everyone one of these guys above in their prime could become draws in the WWE today if pushed the same way they were pushed when they became draws. Shawn Michaels got an as big or bigger push than any of these guys and it didn't work. DX was cool and all but it was a second rate nWo that got more over thanks to the anti-American angle by the Harts, but it was never a draw. A draw means you are a performer that brings people into the building that wouldn't already come and that makes people that don't buy merch buy merch. An over main eventer is a guy that makes people cheer after they come or gets them to buy this shirt instead of that shirt.

No money would have been lost if Hart, HBK, or Hennig never existed. That's all I'm saying.

[Mo Z. Dizzle]

BREAKING NEWS: CM PUNK SUSPENDED FOR FAILING WELLNESS POLICY TEST






















































April Fool's!!

[M Dogg™]

No one is doubting his in ring ability. I'm a Canadian who grew up hating HBK and just the other day I had a debate in favor of HBK over Hart as an in ring performer. I'm not even using the politics as a reason why I hate him. What I'm saying is he was given shot after shot at being a star and he couldn't get it done. That means he didn't have it. Neither did Benoit or Kurt Angle. There is a difference between getting over and becoming a draw. The WWF hasn't had a draw since The Rock, and the last draw created in wrestling was the short lived Goldberg.

There are very few of these types of wrestlers in history. Off the top of my head since 1980 the only draws I can think of are Harley Race, Ric Flair, Dusty Rhodes, Hogan, Piper, Road Warriors, Ultimate Warrior, Vader in WCW, Lawler in his market, Hall and Nash as the Outsiders, Hollywood Hogan, Steve Austin, the Rock and Goldberg. Everyone else that won the title was just a main eventer who got over and did well.

Everyone one of these guys above in their prime could become draws in the WWE today if pushed the same way they were pushed when they became draws. Shawn Michaels got an as big or bigger push than any of these guys and it didn't work. DX was cool and all but it was a second rate nWo that got more over thanks to the anti-American angle by the Harts, but it was never a draw. A draw means you are a performer that brings people into the building that wouldn't already come and that makes people that don't buy merch buy merch. An over main eventer is a guy that makes people cheer after they come or gets them to buy this shirt instead of that shirt.

No money would have been lost if Hart, HBK, or Hennig never existed. That's all I'm saying.

I will argue you with HBK. I truly think that post-Screw Job, when HBK had as much heat as the Mr. McMahon character, he would have drawn almost as much as a Roddy Piper did as a villain in the 80's. The Austin era was rising, but had Austin and Michaels carried a program over the summer, it would have been one of the biggest draws in wrestling history. As I said, Michaels never had that time between 32-36, and in that time he could have been one of the top drawing heels ever. His heat was unmatched by any heel outside of Hollywood Hogan, and actually in 1997-98 his heat might have matched Hollywood Hogans. Don't believe, watch an event then, go back and watch Michaels vs. Shamrock, or Michaels vs. Undertaker, and you'll see someone who had so much heat.

But you still argue this draw thing. Just because one person said GOAT, and you put drawing power into GOAT. I like to judge in-ring performance, and I'd call Kurt Angle the best in-ring since Flair of the 80's. With that though, Hart/Henning/Michaels, when I mentioned them I mentioned them as how I view them. They were smaller guys, and they followed the Hulk Hogan era when large men ruled the main event. The 80's in the WWF was Hulk Hogan vs. the monster of the month, then the 90's started off the Ultimate Warrior being the strongest biggest muscle man. Basically Hart/Henning/Michaels in my eyes did not have to be a big draw, because they were changing the face of the WWF. Sure the WWF had Ric Flair and Randy Savage hold the belt but never did they base their whole main event off smaller more athletic wrestlers. And as I said before, these guys were given an opportunity at the worst time, as Vince McMahon was recovering from the steroid trails. But you can ask Austin himself, HBK/Hart/Henning, those were the guys that made it possible for someone like Austin, who was once a great mat wrestler, to make the run that he did and Vince to have the confidence that he did in Austin.

And it's 2010, the 2000's are over, let alone the 90's. Don't you think it's time to make peace with the past??

[Shallow]

No one is doubting his in ring ability. I'm a Canadian who grew up hating HBK and just the other day I had a debate in favor of HBK over Hart as an in ring performer. I'm not even using the politics as a reason why I hate him. What I'm saying is he was given shot after shot at being a star and he couldn't get it done. That means he didn't have it. Neither did Benoit or Kurt Angle. There is a difference between getting over and becoming a draw. The WWF hasn't had a draw since The Rock, and the last draw created in wrestling was the short lived Goldberg.

There are very few of these types of wrestlers in history. Off the top of my head since 1980 the only draws I can think of are Harley Race, Ric Flair, Dusty Rhodes, Hogan, Piper, Road Warriors, Ultimate Warrior, Vader in WCW, Lawler in his market, Hall and Nash as the Outsiders, Hollywood Hogan, Steve Austin, the Rock and Goldberg. Everyone else that won the title was just a main eventer who got over and did well.

Everyone one of these guys above in their prime could become draws in the WWE today if pushed the same way they were pushed when they became draws. Shawn Michaels got an as big or bigger push than any of these guys and it didn't work. DX was cool and all but it was a second rate nWo that got more over thanks to the anti-American angle by the Harts, but it was never a draw. A draw means you are a performer that brings people into the building that wouldn't already come and that makes people that don't buy merch buy merch. An over main eventer is a guy that makes people cheer after they come or gets them to buy this shirt instead of that shirt.

No money would have been lost if Hart, HBK, or Hennig never existed. That's all I'm saying.

I will argue you with HBK. I truly think that post-Screw Job, when HBK had as much heat as the Mr. McMahon character, he would have drawn almost as much as a Roddy Piper did as a villain in the 80's. The Austin era was rising, but had Austin and Michaels carried a program over the summer, it would have been one of the biggest draws in wrestling history. As I said, Michaels never had that time between 32-36, and in that time he could have been one of the top drawing heels ever. His heat was unmatched by any heel outside of Hollywood Hogan, and actually in 1997-98 his heat might have matched Hollywood Hogans. Don't believe, watch an event then, go back and watch Michaels vs. Shamrock, or Michaels vs. Undertaker, and you'll see someone who had so much heat.

But you still argue this draw thing. Just because one person said GOAT, and you put drawing power into GOAT. I like to judge in-ring performance, and I'd call Kurt Angle the best in-ring since Flair of the 80's. With that though, Hart/Henning/Michaels, when I mentioned them I mentioned them as how I view them. They were smaller guys, and they followed the Hulk Hogan era when large men ruled the main event. The 80's in the WWF was Hulk Hogan vs. the monster of the month, then the 90's started off the Ultimate Warrior being the strongest biggest muscle man. Basically Hart/Henning/Michaels in my eyes did not have to be a big draw, because they were changing the face of the WWF. Sure the WWF had Ric Flair and Randy Savage hold the belt but never did they base their whole main event off smaller more athletic wrestlers. And as I said before, these guys were given an opportunity at the worst time, as Vince McMahon was recovering from the steroid trails. But you can ask Austin himself, HBK/Hart/Henning, those were the guys that made it possible for someone like Austin, who was once a great mat wrestler, to make the run that he did and Vince to have the confidence that he did in Austin.

And it's 2010, the 2000's are over, let alone the 90's. Don't you think it's time to make peace with the past??

What peace with the past? I loved Bret Hart during the whole time and Hennig was always one of my very favourites. HBK was marketed to teenage girls so I never really cared for him as a teen but in my adult years I praise his in ring abilities as high as anyone else does.

HBK always had heat, heel of face. He was great at getting heat. But getting heat from fans that are going to come anyway and getting fans to show up when they wouldn't have already come is a different story. All this 32-36 crap doesn't fly with me. HBK was marketed as a young man and a girl attraction and he was good at it. He was a young punk type of heel too. The Rock achieved the same kind of push and drew all he could draw in his late 20s and if you think a 25 year old HBK could have drawn like the Rock between 99 and 2002 then you're smoking crack.

Of course he would have drawn more with Austin through the summer than before Austin. That's my point. Everyone draws more with Austin but it's not them doing the drawing. It's Austin. What makes a top draw, or a real draw? A guy you can take on the road and create so much buzz from town to town that you're not just filling arenas you're creating such a high demand that ticket prices nearly double and the places still sell out, ratings nearly double, buyrates nearly double, that guys merchandise not only lesds the company but turns such a profit you can't afford to take away his TV time.

With HBK they didn't just not double, they dipped. He wasn't the guy, plain and simple. HBK was a great main event complimentary piece, but never a guy you build a Mania round, unless you've got nothing else. Just like HHH has been this past decade.

And I love how you're crediting Bret/Hennig/HBK as the reason smaller guys were allowed to get pushed. First of all, none of those guys were any bigger than Savage, and I almost forgot about him completely and should have added him to my drawers list. My bad. He got over in the height of the steroids monster era as a great worker and a great talker. He got the title for a full year in the Hogan era.

Hart/Hennig/HBK were not the reason the WWE could get away from the big man days. They were pushed only because Vince wanted desperately to get away from it and in 1992 there were plenty of smaller guys Vince could have pushed or brought in from WCW to push.

Hennig was his own worst enemy. Hart was mispushed from the start. Too fast too soon and even sabotaged by Hogan. But when the dust settled Hart had his chance to shine well after the steroid era was out of everyone's minds.

But HBK has no excuse. He didn't get the rocket on his back until 95 and they shot him to the moon in 96. They built a plethora of guys around him and set up the matches with care. But HBK was not the guy. If they did the exact same thing with a 95/96 Austin coming off his ECW gimmick I'd argue it would have worked, maybe not as well as Stone Cold did in 98/99 but he still would have drawn money. Drawn meaning create new money.

In hindsight Hart was the guy for WM10 to WM12 but he needed a better transition to the top. It should have been Flair/Savage and Piper feuding for the title between 8 and 9 and Hart should have come in to the mix and win it by 10 off of one of those guys. Hart should have held the belt for the most part until 12 where Vader should have taken it and Hart should have won the rematch as returning ex-champ for 13. By 14 Austin is ready to take it from monster heel Vader and as his main villain as champ Bret Hart would have joined the Corperate McMahon and they would have feuded until 15.

With that carefull planning and HBK never getting the rocket the screw job would never have had to have happened. HBK would have left with Hall and Nash to WCW and probably have been the third guy. HHH and 123 Kid would have followed and I'm not even sure if Hogan would have ended up turning in that scenario. But everything would have been better off in the end.

But it doesn't matter because Steve Austin happened and the end results are all the same.

[M Dogg™]

LOL at Austin and everything staying the same. You might be right, only that Hogan turning heel completely changed the game and brought back fans lost from the steroid trials. What's funny is you ignore the steroid trial and effect it had in both WWF and WCW. WCW had Randy Savage, Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, Sting, Arn Anderson and they can't better the WWF in ratings. The WWF had Bret Hart, Mr. Perfect, Shawn Michaels, Diesel, Razor Ramon, Lex Lugar and Doink the Clown and they are not doing nearly as well as they did pre-steroid trial. Seriously, the steroid trail had more to do with decrease viewership than Hulk Hogan jumping to WCW, or Bret Hart being champ. Hogan turning heel helped WCW recover, and Michaels jumping ship never would have had that effect. Plus no Screw Job, no Corporation, since it was the screw job that gained McMahon his heat, which gave Michaels his heat and which gave Austin an authority figure to fight. Pre-screw job, Austin is just a bad ass building a reputation, but the screw job gave him someone to fight. His fighting against being a McMahon puppet, and he won the title from the man who helped McMahon screw Bret. Michaels himself was never a huge draw because of the era he was champ, but his actions, and McMahon's action is what helped the WWF come out of the pits of low ratings and recreate it's self in the attitude era.

[UKnowWhatItIs: welcome to my traps....game over]

Am I the only one who thought Wrestlemania was shit & the last match was the only good one?? Damn & the fuckin crowd, their city must suck. Wrestlemania 26=RAW: Deluxe Edition.

[Sikotic™]

Am I the only one who thought Wrestlemania was shit & the last match was the only good one?? Damn & the fuckin crowd, their city must suck. Wrestlemania 26=RAW: Deluxe Edition.

Agreed.

That may have been the worst Wrestlemania crowd ever. They should be lucky that WWE wanted to bring their biggest show to dusty ass Arizona, giving them a economic boost, but they were pretty dead all night except for the main event. Then again, they didn't have much to work with. No match stood out as painful to watch except for McMahon vs. Hart, but none of the matches outside of the main event were stand outs either. Rey vs. Punk would of been good if they were given more time. Cena vs. Batista was given too much time. Edge vs. Jericho was just a complete letdown.

Next year will be in Atlanta, so the crowd will definitely be better.

[Shallow]

LOL at Austin and everything staying the same. You might be right, only that Hogan turning heel completely changed the game and brought back fans lost from the steroid trials. What's funny is you ignore the steroid trial and effect it had in both WWF and WCW. WCW had Randy Savage, Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, Sting, Arn Anderson and they can't better the WWF in ratings. The WWF had Bret Hart, Mr. Perfect, Shawn Michaels, Diesel, Razor Ramon, Lex Lugar and Doink the Clown and they are not doing nearly as well as they did pre-steroid trial. Seriously, the steroid trail had more to do with decrease viewership than Hulk Hogan jumping to WCW, or Bret Hart being champ. Hogan turning heel helped WCW recover, and Michaels jumping ship never would have had that effect. Plus no Screw Job, no Corporation, since it was the screw job that gained McMahon his heat, which gave Michaels his heat and which gave Austin an authority figure to fight. Pre-screw job, Austin is just a bad ass building a reputation, but the screw job gave him someone to fight. His fighting against being a McMahon puppet, and he won the title from the man who helped McMahon screw Bret. Michaels himself was never a huge draw because of the era he was champ, but his actions, and McMahon's action is what helped the WWF come out of the pits of low ratings and recreate it's self in the attitude era.

I meant everything ending up the same. Hogan turning made WCW huge again, but either way WCW would have went under and WWE would have stood alone. If I'm underplaying the steroids you're seriously over playing. Fans jumped off not because Hogan did this or Hogan did that. The numbers suffered because kids got older and weren't interested again. First the nWo and then Austin made those same kids who were teens now like wrestling again. It was mainly the same audience in 87 as it was in 98. The difference was that same audience was 11 years older.

The WWF tried with HBK and Bret Hart to make a product not for kids. I'm just a sexy didn't cut it. Just face it. He's not a star. And when he made his huge comeback at 38 and the ratings, buyrates, merch, or attendance didn't budge. Same with Bret. He comes back for the angle of the ages and nothing changes.

Austin needing Vince is the same BS argument as Hogan needing Andre. It made more money sure but Austin on top going against the Rock didn't need a corporate Vince on screen. But let's be real. The screw job turned a lot of heads but Vince was always a glutton for the spotlight and eventually would have turned heel anyway. To say the screw job was the only reason doesn't fly with me. It helped give him legit heat.

Let me be very clear about one thing. This has nothing to do with my bias. I was never a Stone Cold fan. I didn't like most of the attitude era and always watched Nitro before Raw. I thought the Austin McMahon angle was boring. I thought Rock this is your life was a waste of my time and even tuned out for most of it when it aired. But I know draws when I see them, and as much as heel Vince, DX, the screw job, or Vince Russo Springer style TV helped it wouldn't have meant shit with out Steve Austin and later the Rock. They would have done 3.5s the whole attitude era.

[M Dogg™]

LOL at Austin and everything staying the same. You might be right, only that Hogan turning heel completely changed the game and brought back fans lost from the steroid trials. What's funny is you ignore the steroid trial and effect it had in both WWF and WCW. WCW had Randy Savage, Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, Sting, Arn Anderson and they can't better the WWF in ratings. The WWF had Bret Hart, Mr. Perfect, Shawn Michaels, Diesel, Razor Ramon, Lex Lugar and Doink the Clown and they are not doing nearly as well as they did pre-steroid trial. Seriously, the steroid trail had more to do with decrease viewership than Hulk Hogan jumping to WCW, or Bret Hart being champ. Hogan turning heel helped WCW recover, and Michaels jumping ship never would have had that effect. Plus no Screw Job, no Corporation, since it was the screw job that gained McMahon his heat, which gave Michaels his heat and which gave Austin an authority figure to fight. Pre-screw job, Austin is just a bad ass building a reputation, but the screw job gave him someone to fight. His fighting against being a McMahon puppet, and he won the title from the man who helped McMahon screw Bret. Michaels himself was never a huge draw because of the era he was champ, but his actions, and McMahon's action is what helped the WWF come out of the pits of low ratings and recreate it's self in the attitude era.

I meant everything ending up the same. Hogan turning made WCW huge again, but either way WCW would have went under and WWE would have stood alone. If I'm underplaying the steroids you're seriously over playing. Fans jumped off not because Hogan did this or Hogan did that. The numbers suffered because kids got older and weren't interested again. First the nWo and then Austin made those same kids who were teens now like wrestling again. It was mainly the same audience in 87 as it was in 98. The difference was that same audience was 11 years older.

The WWF tried with HBK and Bret Hart to make a product not for kids. I'm just a sexy didn't cut it. Just face it. He's not a star. And when he made his huge comeback at 38 and the ratings, buyrates, merch, or attendance didn't budge. Same with Bret. He comes back for the angle of the ages and nothing changes.

Austin needing Vince is the same BS argument as Hogan needing Andre. It made more money sure but Austin on top going against the Rock didn't need a corporate Vince on screen. But let's be real. The screw job turned a lot of heads but Vince was always a glutton for the spotlight and eventually would have turned heel anyway. To say the screw job was the only reason doesn't fly with me. It helped give him legit heat.

Let me be very clear about one thing. This has nothing to do with my bias. I was never a Stone Cold fan. I didn't like most of the attitude era and always watched Nitro before Raw. I thought the Austin McMahon angle was boring. I thought Rock this is your life was a waste of my time and even tuned out for most of it when it aired. But I know draws when I see them, and as much as heel Vince, DX, the screw job, or Vince Russo Springer style TV helped it wouldn't have meant shit with out Steve Austin and later the Rock. They would have done 3.5s the whole attitude era.

Here's the thing, we are going to keep going back and forth because we don't have any common ground, and honestly I think your full of shit in this argument, but it is what it is. Here is the thing. I never said Michaels was a draw, I said he could have been a draw, especially after the screw job because of the heat put on him and McMahon, but god had other plans for him and it ended better for his life. Now you seem to be a hater of Michaels, that's fine, he did a lot of wrong and you are entitled with your opinion. I am a lot more forgiving, as I honestly didn't like Michaels at first, especuially the whole boyhood dream Michaels or the I Lost My Smile Michaels. Now once he started owning the Canadian crowds, came out with DX and then truly screwed Bret, I had a whole new respect for him and I truly believe him vs. Austin in the summer of 1998 would have been one of the top drawing, greatest feuds ever in wrestling history. Austin was a draw, but as I said, Michaels had so much heat that it was crazy. Now the reality was it never came to be, and Austin did a great job of being a draw himself, and the Rock came and became that rival that Austin needed. But the Austin attitude era was not fully matured yet, and it was Michaels DX that had the WWF at least competing with the nWo. Now WCW dropped the ball with their Starrcade '97 match with Hogan and Sting, and that helped the WWF make up some ground.

As for the audience, I want to clarify this. When it was 1987, and Hogan was fighting Andre, it was not the kids responsible to making Hogan the draw he was, it was the fathers. Fathers saw a produced they could buy, a hero they didn't mind their kids looking up to, and something that father and sons can bond doing, just like baseball, football and basketball. When the Steroid Trial came, fathers stop taking their sons to the arena, they stop buying their sons video games, and they stop letting their sons watch wrestling because Hulk Hogan does drugs. It truly hurt the WWF's drawing power, and it also hurt WCW as they signed Hulk Hogan and Randy Savage and Hulk Hogan couldn't out draw Doink the Clown during that time. Don't believe me, Raw ratings during a Doink the Clown segment beat WCW Saturday Night during a Hulk Hogan segment. That's how bad the Steroid Trial hurt wrestling as a whole. But you don't think it did because the kids eventually came back, but young kids never did until the last 5 years since John Cena started main eventing Wrestlemania. WWF/E had to cater to teens/young adults because they had a history of watching wrestling, and they could be brought back with someone like Austin and the Rock, and some Sable tits. Sadly for Michaels, he missed it all, but much of the Attitude era started by the original DX, and he would have been perfect to fit in that era.

[Shallow]

LOL at Austin and everything staying the same. You might be right, only that Hogan turning heel completely changed the game and brought back fans lost from the steroid trials. What's funny is you ignore the steroid trial and effect it had in both WWF and WCW. WCW had Randy Savage, Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, Sting, Arn Anderson and they can't better the WWF in ratings. The WWF had Bret Hart, Mr. Perfect, Shawn Michaels, Diesel, Razor Ramon, Lex Lugar and Doink the Clown and they are not doing nearly as well as they did pre-steroid trial. Seriously, the steroid trail had more to do with decrease viewership than Hulk Hogan jumping to WCW, or Bret Hart being champ. Hogan turning heel helped WCW recover, and Michaels jumping ship never would have had that effect. Plus no Screw Job, no Corporation, since it was the screw job that gained McMahon his heat, which gave Michaels his heat and which gave Austin an authority figure to fight. Pre-screw job, Austin is just a bad ass building a reputation, but the screw job gave him someone to fight. His fighting against being a McMahon puppet, and he won the title from the man who helped McMahon screw Bret. Michaels himself was never a huge draw because of the era he was champ, but his actions, and McMahon's action is what helped the WWF come out of the pits of low ratings and recreate it's self in the attitude era.

I meant everything ending up the same. Hogan turning made WCW huge again, but either way WCW would have went under and WWE would have stood alone. If I'm underplaying the steroids you're seriously over playing. Fans jumped off not because Hogan did this or Hogan did that. The numbers suffered because kids got older and weren't interested again. First the nWo and then Austin made those same kids who were teens now like wrestling again. It was mainly the same audience in 87 as it was in 98. The difference was that same audience was 11 years older.

The WWF tried with HBK and Bret Hart to make a product not for kids. I'm just a sexy didn't cut it. Just face it. He's not a star. And when he made his huge comeback at 38 and the ratings, buyrates, merch, or attendance didn't budge. Same with Bret. He comes back for the angle of the ages and nothing changes.

Austin needing Vince is the same BS argument as Hogan needing Andre. It made more money sure but Austin on top going against the Rock didn't need a corporate Vince on screen. But let's be real. The screw job turned a lot of heads but Vince was always a glutton for the spotlight and eventually would have turned heel anyway. To say the screw job was the only reason doesn't fly with me. It helped give him legit heat.

Let me be very clear about one thing. This has nothing to do with my bias. I was never a Stone Cold fan. I didn't like most of the attitude era and always watched Nitro before Raw. I thought the Austin McMahon angle was boring. I thought Rock this is your life was a waste of my time and even tuned out for most of it when it aired. But I know draws when I see them, and as much as heel Vince, DX, the screw job, or Vince Russo Springer style TV helped it wouldn't have meant shit with out Steve Austin and later the Rock. They would have done 3.5s the whole attitude era.

Here's the thing, we are going to keep going back and forth because we don't have any common ground, and honestly I think your full of shit in this argument, but it is what it is. Here is the thing. I never said Michaels was a draw, I said he could have been a draw, especially after the screw job because of the heat put on him and McMahon, but god had other plans for him and it ended better for his life. Now you seem to be a hater of Michaels, that's fine, he did a lot of wrong and you are entitled with your opinion. I am a lot more forgiving, as I honestly didn't like Michaels at first, especuially the whole boyhood dream Michaels or the I Lost My Smile Michaels. Now once he started owning the Canadian crowds, came out with DX and then truly screwed Bret, I had a whole new respect for him and I truly believe him vs. Austin in the summer of 1998 would have been one of the top drawing, greatest feuds ever in wrestling history. Austin was a draw, but as I said, Michaels had so much heat that it was crazy. Now the reality was it never came to be, and Austin did a great job of being a draw himself, and the Rock came and became that rival that Austin needed. But the Austin attitude era was not fully matured yet, and it was Michaels DX that had the WWF at least competing with the nWo. Now WCW dropped the ball with their Starrcade '97 match with Hogan and Sting, and that helped the WWF make up some ground.

As for the audience, I want to clarify this. When it was 1987, and Hogan was fighting Andre, it was not the kids responsible to making Hogan the draw he was, it was the fathers. Fathers saw a produced they could buy, a hero they didn't mind their kids looking up to, and something that father and sons can bond doing, just like baseball, football and basketball. When the Steroid Trial came, fathers stop taking their sons to the arena, they stop buying their sons video games, and they stop letting their sons watch wrestling because Hulk Hogan does drugs. It truly hurt the WWF's drawing power, and it also hurt WCW as they signed Hulk Hogan and Randy Savage and Hulk Hogan couldn't out draw Doink the Clown during that time. Don't believe me, Raw ratings during a Doink the Clown segment beat WCW Saturday Night during a Hulk Hogan segment. That's how bad the Steroid Trial hurt wrestling as a whole. But you don't think it did because the kids eventually came back, but young kids never did until the last 5 years since John Cena started main eventing Wrestlemania. WWF/E had to cater to teens/young adults because they had a history of watching wrestling, and they could be brought back with someone like Austin and the Rock, and some Sable tits. Sadly for Michaels, he missed it all, but much of the Attitude era started by the original DX, and he would have been perfect to fit in that era.

I never said you said Michaels was a draw and I even agreed that attached to Austin would have been the second best feud for  98. The best drawing feud for 98 would have involved the man who had the most heat coming off the screw job next to Bret and Vince; Owen Hart, who for money making purposes should have started out in the Black Hart gimmick, had a back and forth saving each other from Vince's corportation and in the end have Owen turn on Austin and join Vince as the Corporate Champion.

You're also over reating on the heat HBK had coming off SS. The first Raw after the screwjob was huge heel heat but they were in Canada. The next weeks when they attacked Slaughter or turned on Anvil it wasn't nearly as huge. You have to remember that the entire several months leading up to SS Hart was the biggest heel in the country and DX was almost babyface going against him defending America. And HBK was never all that great a heel. The cool heel never works right. It didn't work for the Outsiders, or Flair, or the Rock. Rock and Flair are famous for playing heel but only started drawing when they played face because it's hard to root for the heel against a top cool heel unless the face in question is as big or a bigger draw.

Owen was a real heel. The only people that cheered for Owen's heel promos and style were the few that liked that sort of stuff, like me, but the vast majority hated the Owen character and in turn loved those who went against him. If the people don't desperately want you to lose you're not that great a heel. It's what did the Outsiders and DX both in. They had a neat gimmick that people loved and attracted attention but in the end faces are what drive a company and when you bury your faces with witty jokes and being more hip to the scene than they are it kills business. Austin was so over and better at being cool it didn't matter but against anyone else HBK would have been a terrible heel. DX was too funny to hate.

We're simply going to have to agree to disagree on the steroids case. You think the fall in business was fathers not taking their kids because of steroids. I think it was the kids not caring as much about the wrestlers that had gone stale and not begging their fathers to take them. Hogan couldn't draw well in 94 and 95 because he was stale and WCW had some of the worst bookers and writers on the planet. Have you seen some of that Hogan vs Dungeon of Doom stuff? If they used those storylines to promote Hogan/Andre in 87 it would have fallen flat. So no way will it work in 95.

Once it all turned around in WCW creatively fathers were taking their kids back just the same. Hogan stood trial in July of 94. By July of 96 WCW was packing houses. Hogan was a heel ad his turn from face was eventful because he was a hero, not because he was damaged goods. And when kids were taken by their fathers and cheered for Lex Luger, you don't think every father and their mother knew Luger was juiced up?

Excuses, excuses. Every wrestler has them when they can't draw or get over, but all you need is star power, a strong gimmick and solid booking. All that goes hand in hand. If Steve Austin was brought today and booked by the current staff he might have been able to be the biggest star but he'd never become a real draw.

No one is a draw anymore and it's not their fault. They don't get the chance. In the old days it was, here's your time, make money. Now it's all about what the creative team has in mind for you. What you say and how you say it. The difference for me with Hart/HBK is that I never saw or see anything that makes me think they could have been real draws. Hart was only a draw in Canada because he was Canadian. So I think even wit the right booking and style they'd still fall to the wayside. Hennig on the other hand I think had what it takes. He just got unlucky. I saw a star in his AWA stuff. I never saw that same star in anything I've seen from Hart or HBK.

[Geesta]

Yall are fighting about the fucking past...

who cares who was the best then... we all know when the kliq was together they were the best wrestlers of there era and they were gonna be in the game for generations
only person who over came that was the Hart family because no matter how much Vince and Bret act like they hate eachother on TV nowadays.. deep down they know they wouldn't be shit without each other... The Harts wouldn't have their legacy and Vince wouldn't have his company

now NWO ran wrestling for a while there is no doubt in that (ask me why they did at that time if you dont agree)... but no matter what HBK was always called the show stopper for a reason... Stone cold shitted on anyone at WCW at that time besides maybe Sting

when Bret Hart went to WCW and after Owen died i tuned out of wrestling for years
till around 2007

now that im back in to it... all i can say is wrestling will never be as good as it once was... but i still enjoy the fundementals of it

Undertaker owns WWE right now in terms of drawing power
(unless The Rock comes back)

TNA well i look at TNA as an underground type shit... even though NWO is old as fuck now its good to watch them be the bad guys... i could care less about Hogan and Flair and the rest of the scrubs on that shit... Sting always gets my attention though...


but in all honestly i think the girls at TNA are way better then the wack ass WWE divas and the TNA hoes have better matches

i would fuck the shit out of Tara



anyone agree to disagree?

[M Dogg™]

LOL...

I will say this, on the topic of what's going on today... I can say it now...

JACK SWAGGER IS CHAMPION!!!This is a great day, because one of the best young talents came out from being lost in the shuffle to becoming World Champion. A great day and hopefully on Smackdown Swagger will do great things.

Also, Cryme Tyme is broken up...    I can't say I didn't see this coming, but this soon? I know that Shag wants to get into acting, and JTG is more of a wrestler who wanted Cryme Tyme to be a pure tag team and eventually these goals will clash. Vince was also never high on Shag, and he was never going to push JTG so that's why they originally got release in 2007. But they got over and Vince had to bring them back. The only thing is now, at best JTG is Marty Jannetty and Shag at best will be the Warlord. I say team JTG up with someone else because Vince will never push him as a singles wrestler, and look for Shag to be released by the summer. Sadly JTG said he wanted Cryme Tyme to be a true tag team that last, but that was not the case and Shag will be gone by years end, JTG mill job squad it out unless he gets a new partner.