Lifestyle > Train of Thought
Islam : Cult?
coola:
"Members are taught to suppress anything which might reflect negatively to outsiders about the cult. " this is a perfect example.
i think to understand religion in it's totality, first you must realise that no religion is perfect.
infinite may have a great understanding of the qu'ran, but he is blinded, by the fact that it's not a perfect religion. he is blindly following it, by thinking it is perfect.
coola:
--- Quote from: h cottie IZ HIV ACTIVE on May 02, 2006, 04:04:44 PM ---i didnt even read the post past the first sentence b/c the first one is ridiculous
--- End quote ---
ofcourse you didnt read it champ ;D
--- Quote ---Muslims are told to dismiss any criticism of Islam as coming from Satan and they often avoid reading critical views about their Faith.
--- End quote ---
nibs:
--- Quote ---The following is a description of what cult is:
--- End quote ---
let's work with the basic definition of a cult:
cult - (noun)
1a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
1b. The followers of such a religion or sect.
2. A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
almost all religions start off as cults to some extent. most if not all religions are founded around the "enlightened" teachings of one individual. the only real distinction between a cult and a religion is typically whether or not the cult continues on after the founder is no longer active (dead, imprisoned...etc); and also if it reaches some critical mass.
throwing around the label of cult is largely a semantic argument on the usage of the word. you look at the bible, abraham started a cult, moses restarted a cult, jesus started a cult, paul started a new cult around his interpretation of jesus...etc.
it's just a label. appreciate the definition for what it is. can a cult be based on true knowledge? can a cult be good? the label "cult" doesn't answer any of those questions; and those are the real issues.
we can look at ali sina's description of cult--like attributes of islam.
half of them are redundant. redundant in that core beliefs of islam are defined as cult-like. believing in "a last day" is just that; if you believe in a last day and that there is judgement for one's actions; then islam is the way. the qu'ran can provide direction.
part of these attributes that are criticized are attributes that are necessary to hold together the core beliefs. the same attributes are found in society in general, and is largely how order and respect for the rule of law is maintained within modern societies.
some of those claims are completely outrageous and unfounded:
--- Quote ---Muslims are encouraged to spy on each other and report any sign of dissent.
--- End quote ---
the qu'ran states directly do not be suspicious of one another.
sura 49:12
O ye who believe! Avoid suspicion as much (as possible): for suspicion in some cases is a sin: And spy not on each other behind their backs. Would any of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother? Nay, ye would abhor it...But fear God: For God is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
that's just a poorly researched argument.
the argument that islam is absolutist is unfounded:
--- Quote ---The doctrine is absolutist and the ideology is internalized as "the Truth."
Islam is extremely absolutist and Muslims believe that it is the only true religion. This "truth" however is not self evident. It is "true" because Muhammad said so.
--- End quote ---
this is false. the qu'ran states directly that true believers among the christians and jews will also see heaven. the qu'ran embraces other monotheistic religions that preserve the principles of islam.
sura 2:62
Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
sura 5:69
Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
who do we believe? the text of the qu'ran or this guy's ideas?
the suggestion that the qu'ran engages in demagoguery to avoid criticism is also unfounded:
--- Quote ---Members are trained to reject and disbelieve criticism of the cult as lies from Satan.
--- End quote ---
actually, within the qu'ran for the most part, it's only those that are malicious that are guided by evil jinns.the sceptism is condemned largely as it is a result of conjecture. satan, evil jinn's...these attempt to lead people astray; but the criticism from disbelievers is typically associated with conjecture on their behalf.
sura 6:116
And if thou obey most of those on earth, they will lead thee astray from ALLAH's way. They follow nothing but mere conjecture, and they do nothing but lie.
sura 10:34-5
Say, `Is there any of your associated-gods who guides to the truth ?' Say, `It is ALLAH alone Who guides to the truth. Is then HE Who guides to the truth more worthy to be followed, or he who finds not the way himself unless he be guided ? What, then, is the matter with you ? How judge ye ?'
And most of them follow only conjecture. Surely, conjecture avails naught against the truth. Verily, ALLAH is well aware of what they do.
this is not the sort of demagoguery that buddy is suggesting. the qu'ran is telling it's followers to question and assess the source of the disbelievers ideas. it's a message that demands critical analysis; and rejects fanciful, convenient and contrived ideas. the exact opposite of what this guy is saying.
this guy clearly does not like muslims and resorts to slanderous rhetoric:
--- Quote ---Muslims lie with clarity of conscience to misrepresent their religion and make it look good.
--- End quote ---
this is nothing but a slanderous statement. amusing? sure. how can this sort of generalization be taken seriously?
the nature of islam itself and the status of the prophet muhammad are distorted:
--- Quote ---Islam claims to be a religion with strong devotion to Muhammad and a set of unsubstantiated doctrines presented by him.
--- End quote ---
islam is a principle.
there are muslims that only follow the qu'ran and not hadith (which are the teachings and accounts of the prophet muhammad & associates). there are muslims that don't even follow the arabic qu'ran. if you look at noble drew ali and the moorish science temple (the basis for much of the noi); they actually have their own book (the circle 7 koran) that is basically "the principles of islam from the perspective of jesus" + direction by noble drew ali.
gross blasphemy (from a qu'ranic disposition) is charged without basis:
--- Quote ---Ostensibly the worship was to God but effectively he was the only object of veneration of his followers and the only authority.
--- End quote ---
this is simply a blasphemous and inflammatory statement.
the qu'ran states directly that muhammad is simply a prophet, no greater than other prophets...etc. the characterizations regarding the devotion to the prophet muhammad are ill conceived.
contrast that with christianity where they worship their guy (jesus). christians claim to believe in god, yet at the same time they worship a man. jesus' own brother [james] did not worship him; yet he is still worshipped by many christians. it reminds me of the rastafarians worshipping haile selassie while the ethopians never considered there king to be a god. if you want to see an irrational devotion to a leader, look to the religion that worships a prophet; not the religion that states within it's holy text not to worship any prophets.
the real questions are "is islam good or bad"? and "is islam true?".
i submit that islam is both good and true.
i also submit that the teachings of christ are good and true; but paul, catholicism and derived religions have distorted those teachings and are both bad and false.
now we can analyze the qu'ran and debate it's goodness, or we can study the distortions that paul and the catholic church introduced to christianity and discuss the potential badness there.
but the real issue is not what is cult-ish or cult-like; that is largely irrelevant; that is largely relying on negative stereotypes associated with cults. so let's throw aside the labels, and analyze those connations directly on their merits. i've submitted and maintain that those connotations are untrue, and unfounded when applied to islam.
nibs:
--- Quote from: Chief on May 02, 2006, 05:17:05 PM ---
"Members are taught to suppress anything which might reflect negatively to outsiders about the cult. " this is a perfect example.
i think to understand religion in it's totality, first you must realise that no religion is perfect.
infinite may have a great understanding of the qu'ran, but he is blinded, by the fact that it's not a perfect religion. he is blindly following it, by thinking it is perfect.
--- End quote ---
2 corinthians 6:14-15
Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?
Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever?
romans 16:17-20
Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them.
For such men are slaves, not of our Lord Christ but of their own appetites; and by their smooth and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting.
For the report of your obedience has reached to all; therefore I am rejoicing over you, but I want you to be wise in what is good and innocent in what is evil.
The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.
ephesians 5:22-24
Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.
For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.
Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
here you have the bible saying the exact same thing this guy is criticizing the qu'ran for saying. is he not also criticizing the bible then?
Sikotic™:
Do you guys realize you can go back and forth with this shit for the rest of your lives and nothing productive will ever come out of it? Anybody ever take a history class?
And to think, I used to have hope in humankind
http://www.dubcnn.com/connect/index.php?topic=109246.0
^ ya problem solver
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version