Lifestyle > Train of Thought
Atheist Sam Harris Destroys Conservative Talk Show Host in Debate
Merovingian:
Religious fanaticism is one of the true evils in this world.
Ant:
--- Quote from: virtuoso on November 29, 2006, 09:33:05 AM ---
Well I don't pretend to have a great understanding of religion but cerainly religion is not to blame I used to think so a kid but then I realised that where religion is used, it's being manipulated.
--- End quote ---
You don't "have a great understanding of religion" but your "certain" religion is not to blame?
I'd say this is a debatable subject. I lean towards religion bearing some responsibility for our problems. Without religion there wouldn't be al-queda. Nor would GWB be in the white house.
If religion didn't exist politicians could talk more candidly about their ideas.... instead of having to appease an irrational majority.
Without religion there would be no Hitler. Maybe this is one-sided. But it's a bit ridiculous to be "certain" religion is not to blame... when you admittedly don't "understand" much about religion.
--
Of course... as Sam Harris rightly points out. Even if you can prove religion has a positive impact on the world (which it may not) that doesn't mean religion is real.
Ant:
--- Quote from: Shallow on November 29, 2006, 09:16:16 AM ---Why are atheists so stupid? There whole system of beliefs depends on logic, fact, evidence and what not yet they actually think it's the religion and the religious people that cause all this chaos. Farmers didn't pick up arms in the crusades because they wanted to defend Jesus or find the Holy Grail. Sure you had an uneducated bumpkin or two actually thinking that, but if you really look at it you'd see they had no choice. It was join up or die. What do you think would happen to a serf if he refused what his king told him? The whole thing was a political play about land and war and had nothing to do with God. The church had long gotten rid of God by that time. You see in the feudal times a kings first born son would be king, but the king had more than one son so what happened to these kids? Well since they couldn't be king they had to find another institution of respect to join and be a prominent member, and that institution was the Roman Catholic Church. They'd become cardinals and bishops and have no real interest in the religion or what it meant. Eventually they would be on the Papal council and conduct business like they would if they had been king.
Since we line in a capitalist democracy today you don't need sons of kings just business man politicians who tell the uneducated common folk what they want to hear and trick them into following them. The masses get fooled no matter where you go. The communists did it very well and they didn't use God at all. Che Guevara used the ideals of communism and the horrors of oppression to trick his people into committing mass murders. Mao did the same but added in economic growth to get entire towns of people to pitch in their crops and make it seem like they were producing three times what they were, but after half got taxed from each town there was no food left to feed the people and they died of starvation.
When God isn't there a substitute, and no matter what the substitute is the reason for it is the same everywhere; to fight oppression or the fear of oppression. No one was calling the Japanese Kamikaze pilots Shinto extremists when they were suicide bombing US naval ships. They were simply doing what they felt they had to in a time of war. 40 virgins in heaven may be the easiest way to get young men to bomb themselves in the Middle East today but let's get it straight; they are bombing themselves because someone came up with the idea that it would be an effective way to attack. And what are they attacking, the oppressor, and in their mind the oppressor came when Israel and the western world came in and attacked, and I'll bet my bottom dollar that the guy that came up with the idea to suicide bomb the streets never once thought about doing it himself. What he needed was impressionable youth to brainwash and since Islam was already there he used it to his advantage and the model was followed by all the other rebel leaders. If Islam wasn't there they'd find another way to brainwash. In the 50+ years of oppression they'd figure out away to get the youth and the uneducated to do what they wanted them to do. The bombers would do it for something. They'd do it for their children and children's children. They'd do it for the country. For the people. For the sake of what is fair. You may think that you can't get atheists to kill themselves but you will find them. Atheists commit suicide too. Atheists fight wars too. You just have to find that small percentage that want to do both, and it's a very small percentage. Take the numbers of Muslims in the Middle East that have blown themselves up and compare that with the number that haven't. You are looking at a point of a percent and if you think that you couldn't find that point of a percent in an atheist middle east then you are an idiot.
--- End quote ---
Arguments about the value of religion do nothing to prove religions validity.
Even if religion is good for society... it doesn't mean its real. And if we don't tolerate a belief in witches... then why do we tolerate beliefs in a false god?
If nothing else... our belief in a false reality distorts our ability to have reasoned discussions. People have enough problems reasoning well. They don't need one more thing messing up their ability to think clearly.
Shallow:
--- Quote from: Ant on November 29, 2006, 08:14:25 PM ---
--- Quote from: Shallow on November 29, 2006, 09:16:16 AM ---Why are atheists so stupid? There whole system of beliefs depends on logic, fact, evidence and what not yet they actually think it's the religion and the religious people that cause all this chaos. Farmers didn't pick up arms in the crusades because they wanted to defend Jesus or find the Holy Grail. Sure you had an uneducated bumpkin or two actually thinking that, but if you really look at it you'd see they had no choice. It was join up or die. What do you think would happen to a serf if he refused what his king told him? The whole thing was a political play about land and war and had nothing to do with God. The church had long gotten rid of God by that time. You see in the feudal times a kings first born son would be king, but the king had more than one son so what happened to these kids? Well since they couldn't be king they had to find another institution of respect to join and be a prominent member, and that institution was the Roman Catholic Church. They'd become cardinals and bishops and have no real interest in the religion or what it meant. Eventually they would be on the Papal council and conduct business like they would if they had been king.
Since we line in a capitalist democracy today you don't need sons of kings just business man politicians who tell the uneducated common folk what they want to hear and trick them into following them. The masses get fooled no matter where you go. The communists did it very well and they didn't use God at all. Che Guevara used the ideals of communism and the horrors of oppression to trick his people into committing mass murders. Mao did the same but added in economic growth to get entire towns of people to pitch in their crops and make it seem like they were producing three times what they were, but after half got taxed from each town there was no food left to feed the people and they died of starvation.
When God isn't there a substitute, and no matter what the substitute is the reason for it is the same everywhere; to fight oppression or the fear of oppression. No one was calling the Japanese Kamikaze pilots Shinto extremists when they were suicide bombing US naval ships. They were simply doing what they felt they had to in a time of war. 40 virgins in heaven may be the easiest way to get young men to bomb themselves in the Middle East today but let's get it straight; they are bombing themselves because someone came up with the idea that it would be an effective way to attack. And what are they attacking, the oppressor, and in their mind the oppressor came when Israel and the western world came in and attacked, and I'll bet my bottom dollar that the guy that came up with the idea to suicide bomb the streets never once thought about doing it himself. What he needed was impressionable youth to brainwash and since Islam was already there he used it to his advantage and the model was followed by all the other rebel leaders. If Islam wasn't there they'd find another way to brainwash. In the 50+ years of oppression they'd figure out away to get the youth and the uneducated to do what they wanted them to do. The bombers would do it for something. They'd do it for their children and children's children. They'd do it for the country. For the people. For the sake of what is fair. You may think that you can't get atheists to kill themselves but you will find them. Atheists commit suicide too. Atheists fight wars too. You just have to find that small percentage that want to do both, and it's a very small percentage. Take the numbers of Muslims in the Middle East that have blown themselves up and compare that with the number that haven't. You are looking at a point of a percent and if you think that you couldn't find that point of a percent in an atheist middle east then you are an idiot.
--- End quote ---
Arguments about the value of religion do nothing to prove religions validity.
Even if religion is good for society... it doesn't mean its real. And if we don't tolerate a belief in witches... then why do we tolerate beliefs in a false god?
If nothing else... our belief in a false reality distorts our ability to have reasoned discussions. People have enough problems reasoning well. They don't need one more thing messing up their ability to think clearly.
--- End quote ---
Your response has nothing to do with my post. I never tried to show religion was real. I never said pagan religions shouldn't be tolerated. I always saw most of the bible as analogy anyway. I'm still a Christian. All the jewish bible stuff is most likely mythology, or at the very least a message through symbols. Also keep in mind that it is very debatable whether many Greeks even believed in their myths as fact. Much of what I read about it makes it seem like people knew what it was and what it's purpose was and it wasn't to believe in Gods. Now when the Romans took it they used it to oppress people, but I'm not so sure about the Greeks. As for Jesus he is based on historical accounts. Whether they are fabricated is up to to you, but they come from the same types of sources that tell us what Julius Caesar did, or how many Spartans beat how many Persians.
Ant:
Our historical knowledge of Jesus is not at all similiar to our historical understanding of Caesar. This is very obviously true. Historians can openly debate the validity of our understand of Caesar, but they cannot do the same with Jesus. If they could you wouldn't believe as you do. As any well-versed historian will show you the history of jesus as portrayed in the bible is highly suspect.
And your post was about the about the good religion does for the world. You call atheists "stupid." But aren't you "stupid" if you believe in something that obviously isn't true?
There are people who are deeply dependent on religion to live happily. These people will never change their minds. But anyone that is open minded can easily learn it isn't real. Just do a little research. Don't be so quick to call people dumb that know more than you. Before you criticize anyone you have to show they are wrong. It makes no sense when you call people "stupid" that see more clearly than you.
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