Lifestyle > Train of Thought
Virginia: 32 Shot Dead In School Shootout
Narrator:
--- Quote from: virtuoso on April 18, 2007, 05:45:44 PM ---Yes I know, my initial post was a bit rash but you would still be dealing with a great deal number of people dead if there was the same amount of gun ownership as in america. If Switzerland had the same level of inequality also, then you might see an even greater similarity in terms of the ratio of owners to deaths.
Although nothing can be as ridiculous as making carrying a knife such a "horrible offence" over here, that is the craziest example of victim disarmament. I remember reading in the london telegraph about how the cops trick young women into admitting they carry a knife and then off to jail they go, meanwhile the criminals will carry knives regardless. At the end of the day any way you cut it if even some of the people were allowed to have a weapon on the campus then this crazy fuck would have been taken down. I can't believe the media is going to spin this to demonise guns, it's unbelievable.
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So I don't understand...if you're admitting that Switzerland would have more gun deaths if it had the same rate of gun ownership, then aren't you conceding I'm right? The main thing I'm arguing here, and which many pro-gun nuts in America deny, is that more guns = more crime, more violence, etc.
As far as demonizing guns, could this Cho dude have killed nearly as many people with a knife as a gun? When was the last time you heard of someone lining up 30 people in a room and then knifing them all to death? Granted, it's pretty rare to hear of someone killing 30 people using a 9-mm handgun with a 15-round magazine (when I heard the number of people killed, I was expecting it to be an assault rifle with a 100-round drum magazine), but it's still far more achievable. The point is, guns facilitate murder for anyone and everyone, and that is why a society in which they are readily available is such a bad thing.
virtuoso:
The point I was trying to make is that if you determined what the gun crime might be using those crude methods, then it calls into your question your view about gun control having such a massive effect. The fact is the right to bear arms is an inalieable part of the U.S constitution and with so many guns in circulation, there will always be millions in circulation available to criminals. The reason why forefathers made the right to bear arms a fundamental part of the constitution was to ensure that with an armed populace tyranny could be staved off.
Narrator:
--- Quote from: virtuoso on April 18, 2007, 05:59:39 PM ---
The point I was trying to make is that if you determined what the gun crime might be using those crude methods, then it calls into your question your view about gun control having such a massive effect. The fact is the right to bear arms is an inalieable part of the U.S constitution and with so many guns in circulation, there will always be millions in circulation available to criminals. The reason why forefathers made the right to bear arms a fundamental part of the constitution was to ensure that with an armed populace tyranny could be staved off.
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I hear the argument about the Constitution all the time. Aside from the fact that I think the 2nd Amendment should probably be repealed (but I know it won't happen) and that the constitutionality of gun control is not as questionable as the NRA makes it sound, I don't buy the tyranny argument. We're living in an era where it's much, MUCh harder for an armed civilian militia to challenge a modern army with sophisticated technology and intelligence. And before you point out to me recent guerilla conflicts such as the Vietnam War or the Soviets' defeat in Afghanistan, please keep in mind that in those cases the guerilla force wasn't just a bunch of civilians who owned guns. The Viet Cong were well-organized and well-supplied by governments hostile to the United States (namely, the Soviets and Chinese) via the Ho Chi Minh Trail, plus they were well-trained. A bunch of drunk rednecks with shotguns or homeowners with .38s are not adequate enough to serve as a guerilla force. Even if almost all American gun owners had assault rifles (and as we agree, that's not the case), I still can't see it working. Guerilla armies still require a level of organization and supply lines that I don't foresee any American militia attaining.
As I have said, I do not expect that, should the gun laws I have suggested be implemented, the U.S. will immediately cease to have such a high rate of gun violence, but it would set the stage for a gradual reduction of gun violence over the next few decades. It would be an important first step.
virtuoso:
80 million (officially) is a massive militia to have, a lot of whom are well schooled in shooting would deliver a bloody nose to any army, why do you not agree with the idea of a few teachers being entrusted with weapons to keep in a secure box? better that, than to turn these campuses into prisons and please do not tell me that is a bs conspiracy, jrome acknowledged this is what they will push for.
Shallow:
--- Quote from: 7even on April 18, 2007, 03:27:46 AM ---I am on Blackman's side on this one, Shallow. In most "civilized" countries it is just weird as fuck to own a gun. I have never even seen a gun in my entire life, except for in the holster of a peaceful police officer. If any decent person around here carries around a gun, it's just odd. It's just not what people do. That being said, the cultural acceptance plays a great role, it's not just about easier destribution. For me a gun is just something I know from movies, computer games and shit. It's not a part or an issue of my everyday life whatsoever. I don't even think of guns on an average day. But in a country in which it is perfectly normal to have serveral guns as a decent person, people rather pull a gun - and not just because it is easier to obtain one.
Also, destribution is an issue too, to me it would just be too much of a hassle to get one illegally (obviously, getting one illegally in Europe is much much harder than getting one illegally in the US) and to learn how to use it, learn how to shoot. I couldn't just go out with it and shoot at some cans or whatever in the forest because that would just be weird lol. I wouldn't know who to ask about it. It's just not what people do. It would be hella suspicious, too, unlike in the US, a "civilized" and economically advanced country that is all over guns, for reasons I hope I will never fully understand.
Furthermore, there is no room to argue, certain types of guns are just flat out designed to kill people. They are *not* designed for artful aim-shooting, or to hunt or to go to war. They are designed to kill people in an everyday environment. That's just crazy. I don't understand why decent people have those types of things.
I am absolutely sure that it is better for a society to not have guns around everywhere. The problem with the US is, that people are just way too used to it, and they would feel as if something lacks as soon as guns would be "prohibited"... that and the fact that the pro-guns-for-retards lobbies like the NRA are way too powerful.
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I think cracking down on guns is great, but I don't see it having an effect on cases like this. This guy wasa nut who wanted to make statement and be remembered for it. If no gun was available to buy legally, he'd buy it illegally. If he couldn't find one he'd find some other way to make an impact; suicide bomb, create a large explosion or fly a plain into one of the school buildings. I don't think gun control would have saved any lives in thios casee, and the lack of gun control could have saved lives if he indeed did try another method like the ones mentioned. He was a lunatic with the intent to kill and die. The best you can do is look for warning signs and keep an eye on him but that is far from a certain method of safety. There's just something about America that breeds these nuts more so than any other first world nation, but in the end these events are few and far between.
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