It's May 14, 2024, 06:50:59 PM
Quote from: Shallow on June 18, 2007, 06:51:25 PMQuote from: J @ M @ L on June 18, 2007, 12:18:35 PMI was talking about this when referring to the point you're trying to prove: "Jesus equates himself to the father here and you can't deny that."And I just pointed out that he claims to be the same in purpose as God, not that he is God... I provided an example to show this:John17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.He obviously doesn't mean that He, God, and all the disciples and people are part of ONE ENTITY... they're ONE IN PURPOSE.That's all I was getting at.... as far as your views towards the religion are concerned, they make sense and I respect them... and I agree... there isn't anything wrong with Jesus' teachings... my whole argument is that Jesus never claimed to be God.Now the "obviously" is my only real issue. There is no "obviously" in the Bible when it comes to most things. If anything was obvious then they're wouldn't be so many rifts with in Christianty.Yes he says the one who sent me is greater than me, but he also says if you have seen me you have seen the father. What all that means exactly is anyone's guess. You can spin it one way and I can spin it another. But you can't deny (not saying that you have) that Jesus puts himself and allows himself to be put above all men. When the gospels talk of apostles worshipping him they don't say that he stopped them from doing so. Now believing that the gospels were re-written is one thing and that's fine but when people claim that the gospels only view him as a normal man who is just another prophet and it was Paul that added to it they are wrong.So wait... the quote I put up, when he's talking about other people being "one" with him and God, he's talking about them being physically part of them? Although that makes ZERO sense, that would totally trash the Trinity theory because if all other people are part of it then it no longer is a "trinity" and there are millions of entities within one, rather than just three. Bro, you're not a dumb guy... some things may not be obvious, but this certainly is. The simple fact that he's even talking TO GOD should ring a bell in your head. Jesus never claimed to be God. Jesus never claimed to be part of a trinity. Something as significant as that would surely have been explicitly stated, no? You're right... he wasn't just a normal man... he was a prophet who performed miracles.... but guess what? He admitted that:John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.edit: I wanted to point this out again..."Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone." (Mark 10:18)Is that one obvious enough? It's about as straight-forward as it can get.... Jesus admits he is not GOD.
Quote from: J @ M @ L on June 18, 2007, 12:18:35 PMI was talking about this when referring to the point you're trying to prove: "Jesus equates himself to the father here and you can't deny that."And I just pointed out that he claims to be the same in purpose as God, not that he is God... I provided an example to show this:John17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.He obviously doesn't mean that He, God, and all the disciples and people are part of ONE ENTITY... they're ONE IN PURPOSE.That's all I was getting at.... as far as your views towards the religion are concerned, they make sense and I respect them... and I agree... there isn't anything wrong with Jesus' teachings... my whole argument is that Jesus never claimed to be God.Now the "obviously" is my only real issue. There is no "obviously" in the Bible when it comes to most things. If anything was obvious then they're wouldn't be so many rifts with in Christianty.Yes he says the one who sent me is greater than me, but he also says if you have seen me you have seen the father. What all that means exactly is anyone's guess. You can spin it one way and I can spin it another. But you can't deny (not saying that you have) that Jesus puts himself and allows himself to be put above all men. When the gospels talk of apostles worshipping him they don't say that he stopped them from doing so. Now believing that the gospels were re-written is one thing and that's fine but when people claim that the gospels only view him as a normal man who is just another prophet and it was Paul that added to it they are wrong.
I was talking about this when referring to the point you're trying to prove: "Jesus equates himself to the father here and you can't deny that."And I just pointed out that he claims to be the same in purpose as God, not that he is God... I provided an example to show this:John17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.He obviously doesn't mean that He, God, and all the disciples and people are part of ONE ENTITY... they're ONE IN PURPOSE.That's all I was getting at.... as far as your views towards the religion are concerned, they make sense and I respect them... and I agree... there isn't anything wrong with Jesus' teachings... my whole argument is that Jesus never claimed to be God.
my throat hurts, its hard to swallow, and my body feels like i got a serious ass beating.
1. Jesus explicitly states he is not God, but nowhere does he explicitly state that he is.2. I didn't say you were "wrong". You said a certain line was not obvious, so I posted up more that were.3. I'm not simply accepting the side that supports my view, and ignoring the side that doesn't. So far I've been given 2 quotes that go against my argument, and I've provided the context for both to show why they do not refute my argument. On the other hand, I've provided I don't even know how many examples to prove my argument. 4. I already provided the context/explanation for "If you have seen me you have seen the father"; as for "Before Abraham, I am"... I'll point these out:Jeremiah 1:4 "Now the word of the Lord came to me saying, 5 ‘Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.’ ”Proverbs 8:23 "Ages ago I was set up at the first, before the beginning of the earth. 24When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water, 25Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth; 26before he had made the earth with its fields, or the first of the dust of the world 27When he established the heavens, I was there.”^ that's Solomon speaking.... is he God too? Job 38:4 “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding... "Job 38:21 "You Know, for you were born then, and the number of your days is great!” 5. And since you brought up John... let's take a look at this:HERE'S JESUS TELLING THE JEWS THAT JOHN = ELIAS (WHO IS SUPPOSED TO APPEAR BEFORE THE ARRIVAL OF THE MESSIAH)Matthew 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.HERE THE JEWS ASK JOHN IF HE IS INDEED ELIAS:John 1:19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.NOW MY QUESTION IS.... IS JESUS A LIAR? OR IS JOHN A LIAR? ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE, ONE OF THEM HAS TO BE.
i agree with what shallow wrote in his last pargraph