Interview: Aesop Rock

[Elano]

In 1999, Aesop Rock's debut project, Labor Days, gained him critical darling status, while circles of backpack-bearing kids across the country embraced his work. Almost a decade later, Aesop is selling more units with each of his subseuqent releases. He's done work for Nike, collaborated with San Franciscan artist Jeremy Fish, and remains an indie-rap powerhouse. Ahead of his latest effort, None Shall Pass, we connected with Aesop to re-evaluate his career, its many movements, and the years ahead. In addition, he adds insight on working with friend and label-chief EL-P, responds to criticisms of his work, compares living on different coasts, and retorts other random queries.

Pitchfork: Where are you now?

Aesop Rock: I live in San Francisco. I had to leave New York and just get out of my comfort zone.

Pitchfork: How do you like the West Coast?

Aesop Rock: I've been here for about two years. I've lived on the East Coast pretty much my whole life so it was a big switch, but I definitely love it here. Ultimately, I think I'll end up back in New York. These last few years have felt like a big field trip. I feel like I'm on the outside looking in sometimes. And I know its cliché when people say that California has more chill people than in the East, but it's true. People are sort of detached here, and it's cool to be around. New York can be a tad stressful.

Pitchfork: Has your approach to making music changed as a result?

Aesop Rock: Over the past few years, I've gotten more in depth. My studio has expanded and my ideas on things have changed a bit. Especially with this new record, I have a lot of live instrumentation mixed in with synths and samples. I tried a few new things on this record, so we'll see how it goes. I guess I try to do something new each time. It's not that I'm even trying; I just get bored really quickly and tend to go about stuff a bit different out of boredom.

Pitchfork: Do you still feel pressure to live up to what seems to be your most heralded project, Labor Days?

Aesop Rock: I don't even like Labor Days that much anymore [laughs]. Honestly, I don't feel pressure to live up to anything I've done because I tend to not listen to my work once a year passes. I know that that's the record that introduced me to more people than my previous stuff, but I get tired of listening to my own shit. The only thing I feel pressure to do is to just keep it moving, and make something that's relevant to where I'm at right now. I just don't want to make certain decisions because I've force myself in a corner because I feel pressure.

Pitchfork: What different things did you do on your new album, None Shall Pass?

Aesop Rock: I tried to take myself out of the equation a little. I didn't want it to be heavy on the braggadocio side of things, and I didn't want to be preaching to the audience. I really wanted to make it heavy on imagery and engage the audience. I wanted to tell stories more this time. A lot of the competition and braggadocio that hip-hop's based on used to be fun, but lately it seems silly. I just wanted to tell little tales, even though not all the stories are told in a linear fashion, its based on settings, time and places.

Pitchfork: Did working with the Mountain Goats' John Darnielle change your approach to the new project? How'd that go?

Aesop Rock: John's a great dude. He's so prolific and productive that it's too a point of being intimidating. He's such a nice guy. He had put Bazooka Tooth on some best-of list, and I had been a fan of his since like 94, which was the first time I heard the Mountain Goats. He knows more about music than anyone should know about music [laughs]. Sometime in 2003, he was in Brooklyn and came over to record some stuff with me. He had written a song earlier, and I told him to give it to me and I'll make a rap song out of it. He recorded it, gave it to me, and a year passed. Then I called him and told him I couldn't do shit with it [laughs].

At some point when I was working on my latest album, I sent him a track and told him to do whatever he wants with it. I mean, we had nothing to lose and wanted to collaborate. So he added some stuff to my work and here we are. He's just such a genuine fan of music. It's really refreshing.

Pitchfork: Another person you work with often is El-P? Do you ever butt heads with that guy?

Aesop Rock: He's a pretty intense guy who's dripping with creativity. Our records were being made sort of at the same time, and when he finished up his he was in promo mode. I was wrapping mine up. But I got him to help me out on thus album, and once we buckled down, we moved forward real quickly because he's so intense. We both have a lot of ideas, and sometimes they line up and everything seems so great. Sometimes it doesn't and it isn't so great [laughs]. At the end of the day, it seems like a pretty good product comes out whether we completely agreed or not.

[El-P's] I'll Sleep When You're Dead is great. No one can bottle up their insanity and stick it on a record as well as that guy. He's a pretty focused dude and it comes across. I know a lot of people who make records, and when you meet them, it's not their personality or they're not what you're expecting. But El-P is exactly what you'd expect [laughs]. I feel that if you heard the album, and then meet him; you'd be like "yup, that's the guy". It's refreshing because all too often you'll be a fan of someone's work and when you meet him or her, they're a total asshole. His music really gives you a grip of how he is.

Pitchfork: You think your music gives people a correct sense of who you are?

Aesop Rock: I do. I've been able to tour because of my music and I've learned a lot about myself while on the road. I think some of the imagery of my writing are snapshots of where I've been and my feelings about the world.

Pitchfork: What have you learned about yourself while on the road?

Aesop Rock: I've learned I don't like being around people too much [laughs]. It's hard to stand around and make conversation with people I've learned. But I do want to be the guy that can do it easily. In a time where everything's a flavor of the month, and it's hard to have any sort of longevity, I've been able to sell records still. I want to be the guy that stands out there and says thank you personally to everyone. And I try after my shows and kick it because I want to genuinely say thanks.

But at the same time, I get overwhelmed really easily. You have to somehow smile for the cameras and it's weird. I mean, you make this music in your home and all of a sudden you're expected to say interesting things outside of home. If I had interesting things to say, I would have been a speechwriter. I think it gets to musicians' heads a lot of the time. Just because people like your records doesn't mean what you have to say is going to be interesting. And I don't want to come off as that dude.

Pitchfork: So you'd say you're an introvert?

Aesop Rock: Yes. I guess that would have been the short answer to everything I just said [laughs].

Pitchfork: Sometimes you've said things on your records that make no sense at all, and you've been criticized for it. Can you address this gripe about your music?

Aesop Rock: You can't get someone to like something they aren't feeling. After you press play, there isn't anything you can do. Obviously, a lot of how I go about saying something isn't really accessible, or I'm not writing in this real linear fashion. But I'm okay with it. For a guy who didn't expect a fan base whatsoever, I'm pretty stoked. People say they don't understand it, and I say that's okay [laughs]. I don't think anyone can argue that I'm not trying to do my own thing at least.

Pitchfork: Do your lyrics make sense to you? Or are you just trying to turn a phrase a certain way sometimes?

Aesop Rock: Of course it means something to me, and it seems like it does mean something to a lot of people. I mean, I've sold some records, and been able to tour, so someone's interested in what I'm saying. Maybe these are people who grew up thinking the same way I did or something. Not to brag or anything, but for the amount of people who say I don't make sense, my last two records have sold like 80,000 copies, so it seems that there are people who I do make sense to and still support me.

Pitchfork: How did The Next Best Thing-- the children's book project about the creative process you did with San Franciscan artist Jeremy Fish-- come about?

Aesop Rock: He lives in SF and had contacted me a while back saying he was a fan. He had gotten this opportunity to pitch this cartoon for Disney, and he wanted me to do some music for it. Of course I was like, "Fuck yeah!" and I told him I had liked some of his work. So we had this mutual connection and respect going. Anyways, the Disney thing never got picked up, but we became friends. So when I moved to SF, he was one of the few dudes I knew and we started hanging out.

We have a lot in common: He was bitter and jaded about the art world and I was bitter and jaded about the music world. Basically we figured out ways to collaborate that would be interesting and not place ourselves too much in the confines of the art or music world. So that book/music combination was an idea that came up and we rolled with it. We're gonna do more stuff.

Pitchfork: And how about working for Nike? How'd that happen?

Aesop Rock: Nike contacted me, called my manager and told me the outlines of the whole project. I though it sounded interesting. I mean, I don't really get offers like that. Usually the corporate world runs away from me, but it sounded like something that I could use to get more music of mine out there this year.

Pitchfork: Were there any weird conflicts of interest, being an independent artist and working for such a major corporation?

Aesop Rock: I would never sign a full contract with any major corporation. But this was a one-time thing, and I dealt with one guy at Nike who was real cool. He seemed real appreciative of my work and the contract was really artist friendly as far as who owns what for how long. It was actually more catered towards the artist than any record deal I've ever had, even though I've been primarily an indie artist. But once I found out I get final say, and that it had to be this quirky side-dish novelty of being jogging music, I agreed. I thought it was so random, and I guess it was random enough for me to try it out.

Pitchfork: Hypothetically, if None Shall Pass doesn't sell and your career just stops, what would you do?

Aesop Rock: I think about stepping out of the music industry a lot. I love making music but a lot of what you have to do in order to make a living out of it makes me really uncomfortable. I've been on the brink of saying fuck this shit. If my career becomes dead in the water, I'd probably get a job at a warehouse or something [laughs]. I never plan to stop making music because it's my favorite part of doing all this. All the touring, marketing and promo stuff is fun, but a lot of times it's not. So if it ends tomorrow, hopefully I'll have my feet on the ground enough to say I had a good run and it was cool. I'm sure I'd be depressed in bed for a couple weeks though [laughs].