Lifestyle > Train of Thought
Sex and Islamic Suicide Terrorism
AndrE16686:
Sorry for the late reply my friend, lifes a hustle.
I started at the end and worked my way to the start.
--- Quote from: Abdul-Infinite Presents...Islam In Africa... on December 06, 2007, 04:11:37 AM ---
Lastly, Islam is a religion of no person, place, thing or time, but rather submission to the Creator... so do you feel like that has a similar theme to your Ghandi quote above?
--- End quote ---
It is a similar theme.
It is a similar theme my friend, believe me, these similar themes are some of the most interesting things I feel about Islam.
And the Islam in your heart may very well be a religion of 'no person, place, thing or time' and 'submission to the Creator'.
However, my friend, the Islam of the world outside of your heart is very much a religion of a people (Muslims), a place (the Mosque), a thing (the black stone, relics and stuff inside the Kaaba) and a time ( you pray five times daily, my friend?).
It is this Islam that is the illusion, not the Islam of your heart.
--- Quote from: Abdul-Infinite Presents...Islam In Africa... on December 06, 2007, 04:11:37 AM ---And if Islam's universal application is a total allusion then how would you describe the very real joy a Muslim might feel in travelling for Hajj or travelling across the world and feeling brotherhood right away with a person they've never met because that person prays like he prays, and believes what he believes?
--- End quote ---
Yes. Islam's application may very well be universal, that is, universal between Muslims.
Now, how would you describe the brotherhood I feel after really getting to know this Sikh dude after a long time, or this Muslim girl or this other dude who don't even get down with religion? Mankind is my brotherhood, my friend. After-all, that's the point, isn't it?
Why do you have to pray in a certain direction, when God is in all directions?
Why must you even say a prayer outloud when God can hear it in your heart?
Why must you only feel that brotherhood with other Muslims?
Its political. Its cultural. Its gang-affiliation. It is religion.
--- Quote from: Abdul-Infinite Presents...Islam In Africa... on December 06, 2007, 04:11:37 AM ---So are you saying that that is a good thing that Islam forbids a depiction of God, because it forces people to seek some internal understanding?
--- End quote ---
Well, you cannot force people to seek understanding. Remember, these words; 'understanding' are just words, talk is cheap, they are only words Im using to describe something that is indescribable and elusive and who says words are the only vehicle? The mountains, the cosmos, they are all the 'word' of God. They only hint at something that only you as an individual can seek to discover for yourself, or not. You might find this in Islam, but if you only see it in Islam, then you have not really found anything, except another illusion.
--- Quote from: Abdul-Infinite Presents...Islam In Africa... on December 06, 2007, 04:11:37 AM ---Or how would you regard those Muslims with ambitious claims that they are still today following the Prophet Muhammad's Islam and therefore they have held onto the Universal Standard he legislated?
--- End quote ---
Well, I believe Mohammad was a reluctant leader. He only picked up a sword because survival and his conscience demanded it. People came to murder him because of his beliefs, so he had to sling swords. If he were alive today, he would be down with me and agree with alot of what I said. I regard those 'Muslims with ambitious claims' as idiots quite frankly. They read the words, but don't bother to try and understand the meaning or the intent with any type of objectivity or criticism. Knowledge and Wisdom are two seperate things. Knowledge dosnt necessarily lead to Wisdom and Wisdom isn't necessarily Knowledge. The cold hard truth about the World is that, its entirely up to yourself to discover, its a climb you must make on your own, not to just wait for a cd-rom to be inserted in your brain in the form of a political ideology, earthly pleasures, or a Bible or a Koran. Thats the micro-chip, thats the real 666 mark of the Beast.
--- Quote from: Abdul-Infinite Presents...Islam In Africa... on December 06, 2007, 04:11:37 AM ---Also, what about the time when the Prophet Muhammad was alive 1400 years ago and he was available to lay down a Universal standard for Islam that was understood and accepted.... how would you regard Islam at that time, would you agree it was a Universal standard at that time?
--- End quote ---
Well, it was the universal standard for Islam because it was the only standard for Islam. Even at that time, Islam meant different things to different people, because people's minds and hearts vary. But I see alot in what Mohammad intended as good and in tradition with alot of other people at the forefront of the true enlightenment movement like Osiris, Jesus, Buddha...it is these similar themes that hint at a universal truth, if ever there was one...
--- Quote from: Abdul-Infinite Presents...Islam In Africa... on December 06, 2007, 04:11:37 AM ---So your saying that you feel Islam itself is an allusion or are you saying that the idea that there is a universal standard or application for Islam is an allusion
--- End quote ---
Islam can be an illusion and illusions can be universal, that is, they can be applied to the majority of mankind (McDonalds, official 9/11 story, Catholicism, Hollywood, etc) but dosn't mean they will be universally accepted. Also, some small illusions are OK, like Father Christmas and magic mushrooms, its the big ones that are a muthafucka!
Thats just my opinion of course. Peace brother. ;)
Out of Allah mercy, I speak these verses
To help bring the truth from beneath the surface
To help get the proof, from beneath the churches
To defeat shading, and complete the circle
-RZA, In The Name of Allah, off Cilvaringz' album, 1.
TraceOneInfinite:
--- Quote from: THE OVERFIEND on December 10, 2007, 12:55:56 AM ---
However, my friend, the Islam of the world outside of your heart is very much a religion of a people (Muslims), a place (the Mosque), a thing (the black stone, relics and stuff inside the Kaaba) and a time ( you pray five times daily, my friend?).
It is this Islam that is the illusion, not the Islam of your heart.
--- End quote ---
Maybe it would be helpful if we compared Islam to other world religions by looking at their names. For example, "Christianity". It is named after a man who lived on Earth who they refer to as Jesus Christ. "Buddhism" is named after a man who lived on Earth known as Lord Budda. "Judaism" is named after the tribe of Juddah. Then you have "Lutherans" who are named after Martin Luthers break away from the mainstream Christian Church.
So as you see, all these religions are based on a person, place, or time. However, the name "Islam" means submission to the Creator. And "Muslim" is like "Mu-Islam" the "Mu" at the begining means "one who"...so it's saying "One who submits to the Creator". Islam is not based upon any person, place or time. Islam has been around for as long as God has been around, which is infinite, eternal, and absolute. And the creation is proof of the Creator. Muhammad is just a man in Islam, a Prophet, no different than thousands of other Prophets such as Moses, Jesus, Abraham, both known and unknown, that throughout time called people to worship of One God, and doing righteous deeds.
Verse 2:136
Say, "We believe in GOD, and in what was sent down to us, and in what was sent down to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Patriarchs; and in what was given to Moses and Jesus, and all the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction among any of them. To Him alone we are submitters."
Also, Islam exists with or without a mosque. A Muslim does not need a mosque to pray, the whole Earth is a field for prayer. And the black stone and Kabbah in Mekkah represent some of the oldest places of worship for Muslims, but they are not essential to our religion, a Muslim can worship anywhere on the Earth. The 5 daily prayer times, are so that throughout the day we can maintain our submission to our Creator by refocusing on God at 5 points in each day and reminding ourselves of our higher purpose.
--- Quote from: THE OVERFIEND on December 10, 2007, 12:55:56 AM ---
Now, how would you describe the brotherhood I feel after really getting to know this Sikh dude after a long time, or this Muslim girl or this other dude who don't even get down with religion? Mankind is my brotherhood, my friend. After-all, that's the point, isn't it?
--- End quote ---
I would describe it by saying this... Yes, mankind is a brotherhood, and there are certain things that mankind shares in common. But the brotherhood I've experienced since becoming a Muslim is far more intense then the general "brotherhood of mankind" that you mentioned.
So many things that we do as Muslims bring us closer together. We pray at the same five points of the day, in rows, shoulder to shoulder and foot to foot and prostrate to our One God. We all fast the same lunar month of Ramadaan. We all make the attempt to leave everything behind once in our lives and gather in Mekkah for the Hajj season. Those are just a few of many examples I could bring up.
--- Quote from: THE OVERFIEND on December 10, 2007, 12:55:56 AM ---
Why do you have to pray in a certain direction, when God is in all directions?
--- End quote ---
Verse 2:177 of the Noble Qu'ran
Righteousness is not turning your faces towards the east or the west. Righteous are those who believe in GOD, the Last Day, the angels, the scripture, and the prophets; and they give the money, cheerfully, to the relatives, the orphans, the needy, the traveling alien, the beggars, and to free the slaves; and they observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat); and they keep their word whenever they make a promise; and they steadfastly persevere in the face of persecution, hardship, and war. These are the truthful; these are the righteous.
--- Quote from: THE OVERFIEND on December 10, 2007, 12:55:56 AM ---
Why must you even say a prayer outloud when God can hear it in your heart?
--- End quote ---
Thoughts have a power. And actions also have a power. If you just think about God, then yes, that we give you some spiritual benefit. However, just thinking is not always enough. But if you think about God, and combine that thinking with action, with the physical movement and prostrations of prayer, with saying these things out loud, with acting on them, joining with others in congregation... all these things add power to our spirituality and we vibrate at a higher level.
--- Quote from: THE OVERFIEND on December 10, 2007, 12:55:56 AM ---
Why must you only feel that brotherhood with other Muslims?
--- End quote ---
Sharing a commonality of beliefs and practices is automatically going to bring people closer together. Their will be more to talk about, and also a deeper understanding that goes even without words.
You can't expect to share the same closeness with someone that you don't have as much in common with. You can try all you want, to go around and have brotherhood with all of mankind, but if they aren't making the same effort as you, then they will differ from you; and even if your trying to understand them, they won't understand you.
--- Quote from: THE OVERFIEND on December 10, 2007, 12:55:56 AM ---
Well, you cannot force people to seek understanding. Remember, these words; 'understanding' are just words, talk is cheap, they are only words Im using to describe something that is indescribable and elusive and who says words are the only vehicle? The mountains, the cosmos, they are all the 'word' of God. They only hint at something that only you as an individual can seek to discover for yourself, or not. You might find this in Islam, but if you only see it in Islam, then you have not really found anything, except another illusion.
--- End quote ---
I think your misunderstanding the basic concept of Islam is that the creation submits to the Creator. In that regard, just like you said, the cosmos, the mountains, the sun, the moon, the stars, all of the creation is "Muslim". It seems we are saying the same thing here, but in a different way.
--- Quote from: THE OVERFIEND on December 10, 2007, 12:55:56 AM ---
Well, I believe Mohammad was a reluctant leader. He only picked up a sword because survival and his conscience demanded it. People came to murder him because of his beliefs, so he had to sling swords. If he were alive today, he would be down with me and agree with alot of what I said. I regard those 'Muslims with ambitious claims' as idiots quite frankly. They read the words, but don't bother to try and understand the meaning or the intent with any type of objectivity or criticism. Knowledge and Wisdom are two seperate things. Knowledge dosnt necessarily lead to Wisdom and Wisdom isn't necessarily Knowledge. The cold hard truth about the World is that, its entirely up to yourself to discover, its a climb you must make on your own, not to just wait for a cd-rom to be inserted in your brain in the form of a political ideology, earthly pleasures, or a Bible or a Koran. Thats the micro-chip, thats the real 666 mark of the Beast.
--- End quote ---
I like what you said about knowledge and wisdom but I don't see what that has to do with the first half of your paragraph... "Muhammad slinging a sword".
--- Quote from: THE OVERFIEND on December 10, 2007, 12:55:56 AM ---
Well, it was the universal standard for Islam because it was the only standard for Islam. Even at that time, Islam meant different things to different people, because people's minds and hearts vary. But I see alot in what Mohammad intended as good and in tradition with alot of other people at the forefront of the true enlightenment movement like Osiris, Jesus, Buddha...it is these similar themes that hint at a universal truth, if ever there was one...
--- End quote ---
The Universal truth that God is One and religion is One, which is the foundational principal of Islam.
--- Quote from: THE OVERFIEND on December 10, 2007, 12:55:56 AM ---
Out of Allah mercy, I speak these verses
To help bring the truth from beneath the surface
To help get the proof, from beneath the churches
To defeat shading, and complete the circle
-RZA, In The Name of Allah, off Cilvaringz' album, 1.
--- End quote ---
I love the Rza quote, I'll have to download that track.
......................
I don't feel like you've answered my questions I posed for you. Maybe by reading my responses you will better understand my questions. I thought that you were going somewhere with your statements, but I think what I had in mind and what you had in mind was a little bit different; maybe because of our backgrounds, and you being on the outside of Islam looking in. I am still curious to hear your perspective because it is thoughtful and enlightened, so I would like to further this convo if you have time and if we are able to move it forward and not go in circles.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[*] Previous page
Go to full version