Lifestyle > Train of Thought
Buddist thinkers (7even): I want a respectable debate
TraceOneInfinite:
7even and anybody else into Buddist teachings. I'd like to debate you, respectfully.
I will pose a couple of items and would like to here your response. Then I will probably question your response, and we will go from there.
Buddism teaches to not look at the form. That we are all one, that pain, suffering, joy, pain...all come from the same source, that once you've said "suffering" you've given form to something that has no form. And that once you say "other" in regards to a person or group you don't like you've given form to something that has no form, because we are all One.
Here's my problem with that...
Item 1: Saying that people are "one" is not really logical or useful. Because, if you say people are "one" they are saying that you shouldn't value one person over another. But a Buddist values Buddist teachings over Nazi teachings. So if a teaching and a teacher has a value, then how is it that people are all "one" and don't have value? Our time on this Earth is limited. So you would be a fool not to place value on different people, because if you don't value some people more than others, you would then waste your time and energy with people who may harm you and be less beneficial to you.
Item 2: The idea that there is no difference between suffering and happiness. Again, if there is no difference between suffering and happiness, then how can there be a difference between being a Nazi and being a Buddist? A Buddist is a Buddist because it makes him feel better and makes him feel happier. He may claim that he is foresaking the materialistic joys of the world but that is only because he VALUES Buddist teachings more than chasing after material gain. So it is only that he has a different value system... it is not that he craves happiness and derides suffering any less than the one addicted to wealth.
Australian Bastard:
I haven't read the entire Dhammapada (the compiled series of things Buddha said for the benefit of the world), but probably enough to answer your question and ive read heaps of Zen buddhist material.
... I also know buddhists and most haven't even read as much as that...study of the Dhammapada is not a prerequisite of being a Buddhist, but rather more so; your actions are.
I'd say im 'into Buddhist teachings' enough to answer your question though, but if I don't you could always read the Dhammapada yourself, for although study of it is not essential in the sense of how the Koran is to a Muslim, the Dhammapada is still cited as the foundation of Buddhism, it deals mostly with what is right action and conduct in this world as taught by Buddha (http://www.serve.com/cmtan/Dhammapada/)...and Zen buddhist poetry aims to act as a catalyst to enlightenment.
--- Quote from: Abdul-Infinite on August 02, 2008, 08:27:18 PM ---
Buddism teaches to not look at the form. That we are all one, that pain, suffering, joy, pain...all come from the same source, that once you've said "suffering" you've given form to something that has no form. And that once you say "other" in regards to a person or group you don't like you've given form to something that has no form, because we are all One.
--- End quote ---
I do not agree that Buddhism teaches people to not look at form. In all respect this is a wrong assumption for you to begin with and your following argument (Items 1 & 2) appears to be based on this assumption. But it is very understandable how you were lead to this assumption, because in Zen Buddhism and even in parts of the Dhammapada; 'emptiness' and 'formlessness' is used to describe enlightenment.
"Form is emptiness, emptiness is form."
- from the Heart Sutra.
Now we must remember that these are only descriptive terms and 'emptiness' and 'formlessness' is the Buddhist way of saying that the Ultimate Reality (or God, Allah) is undescribeable.
This is much in the same way as the Koran forbids the portrayal or characterization of Allah or in the sameway as Christian theologians view God as beyond our comprehension.
That is why in Zen poetry the aim is not to tell you how reality is; but rather the poetry itself is simply attempting to allude to this Ultimate Reality and the realization of that can only come from the individual, so it is not the technicalities or particularities of the words themselves or even the words; but instead that realization which they attempt to invoke, they simply attempt to act as a catalyst for the reader's own realization of the Ultimate Reality.
If you try to aim for it, you are turning away from it.
-Dogen.
7even:
Well, first I have to clarify that I have just been looking for an ideology that fits my thoughts and fascinates me, so to me buddhism/taoism was eastern philosophy to experience, not a religion to follow. So if piece A pertains to me, it's cool, but if piece B doesn't, then I won't go out of my way and adapt myself to it. It's been a while since I been really into it, not that I disagree with it now or anything, I'm just more focused on western philosophy now.
This said, I'm trying to deal with your post with the best of my ability:
About suffering:
Well, it is this, in my opinion very true concept, that most people have already heard of, when it is said that desire leads to suffering, and to elude suffering you have to limit your desire. If you have no wishes, all your wishes will be fulfilled. This concept also implies that you won't exploit the next man.
--- Quote ---So it is only that he has a different value system...
--- End quote ---
Of course, isn't that always the case, I mean, with basically everything? However, as the Ying-Yang symbol illustrates, "good" and "bad" are never in entire disconnection. Which again implies that a Buddhist shall never be attracted to fundamentalism. Buddhism has no fixed dogma.
As for talking about form, I'll show you some quotes and then you will probably feel how the concept of form is used in eastern philosophy:
Verses from Tao Te King:
Look at it, it cannot be seen
It is called colorless
Listen to it, it cannot be heard
It is called noiseless
Reach for it, it cannot be held
It is called formless
These three cannot be completely unraveled
So they are combined into one
Above it, not bright
Below it, not dark
Continuing endlessly, cannot be named
It returns back into nothingness
Thus it is called the form of the formless
The image of the imageless
This is called enigmatic
Confront it, its front cannot be seen
Follow it, its back cannot be seen
Wield the Tao of the ancients
To manage the existence of today
One can know the ancient beginning
It is called the Tao Axiom
-----------
The great square has no corners
The great vessel is late in completion
The great music is imperceptible in sound
The great image has no form
The Tao is hidden and nameless
Yet it is only the Tao
That excels in giving and completing everything
-----------
One quote taken from pop culture, lol, can be heard on Masta Killa's track as well:
"You put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can crash, drip, flow...be water my friend."
Water is something that is often taken as a symbol to illustrate eastern philosophy. It is soft, yet it overcomes everything. You can not punch or hurt it. It is the source of life. Water has no form. When you attribute a form to something, you limit it.
TraceOneInfinite:
Okay... so both of you mentioned how Buddism helps you to see your "ultimate reality" and 7even mentioned "becoming water".. and so on... now that sounds ill in a Wu-Tang track and it is insightful...
but now lets take it a step further. Because truth has a use. So what is the use and benefit of seeing the "ultimate reality that we are One and formless" or as 7even said that we should "be like water".
Explain to me how those teachings are beneficial/useful in ones life? How does knowing those things affect ones daily life?
Australian Bastard:
Well, first of all,
the Dhammapada dosn't primarily focus on trying to get people to see this 'Ultimate Reality',
that wasn't Buddha's aim with that, although he himself saw the 'ultimate reality' but seeing that isn't necessarily the basis for anything and not for being a good person or even a buddhist;
the Dhammapada focuses mostly on how to lead a good life, but realization of this 'Ultimate Reality' is not touted as necessary to this end.
The secret of health for both mind and body is not to mourn for the past,
not to worry about the future, or not to anticipate troubles,
but to live in the present moment wisely and earnestly.
In Buddhist countries, if you wanted to persue a realization of enlightenment seriously you would become a monk, but even then you were not gaurunteed enlightenment by anybody.
So not even to the clergy was enlightenment guarunteed, infact nobody is gaurunteed anything and especially not enlightenment,
but it is said that if you pursue this genuinely to yourself, you will not be denied, I believe that.
Peace comes from within. Do not seek it without.
So a buddhist may never see this 'Ultimate Reality'
or people may attain vision of the 'utimate reality' and then realise there is nothing actually 'ultimate' about it and it is simply reality!
I gained nothing at all from Supreme Enlightenment, and for that very reason it is called Supreme Enlightenment.
Now Buddha understood the difficulty in this for the average John Doe, because of course you cannot provide people a crash course in enlightenment, so instead he attempted to provide his outline of what he learnt from his enlightenment and this series of teachings can be found in the Dhammapada.
I personally find Buddha's and Zen teachings useful in my own personal experience through this life, like most knowledge and wisdom it adds context to life's events, but they are also words or wisdom I find echo in heaps of other thangs so 'it' ain't confined to Buddhism, as far as I know my awareness of life didn't begin with an interest in Buddhism and neither is it limited to my interest in that, nor is it supposed to be....
If you really, genuinely want to learn more about buddhism and life in general for yourself as a person I recommend you look into it yourself, because basically it is not really based on religious practice, program or doctrine, but rather through experience and application. Peep the Dhammapada and find yoself a book on Zen and contemplate that within the context of your own life.
But anyway keep asking questions if you feel you need it and we'll try to answer again...but I'm basically saying them question you are asking about Buddhism you gotta look into it yourself and not base your perceptions on it on what some random dudes on the internet or the street have to say about it...
For sake of this debate though, id say word; all living things are One at their essence, as all souls are of the same originally, however in this life Buddhism teaches that we are seperated by our particularities of this life.
The benefits of seeing/realizing enlightenment are great, as I said it is indescribeable itself, but having experienced that; you gain a greater appreciation and respect for life and this world and emphasis with it's suffering. But don't forget Buddha's way through meditaion and contemplation was not the only one way and Buddha acknowledged that theire are indeed many, as many ways possible as there are those who wish to seek. I myself have never meditated a day in my life.
All conditioned things are impermanent. Work out your salvation with diligence.
-the last words of Buddha.
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