Lifestyle > Train of Thought
Buddist thinkers (7even): I want a respectable debate
7even:
Most and for all, Buddhism is something you have to experience yourself and not something you ask a nigga stuff about only to ridicule from the sideline. I know for a fact that praying 5 times a day to that Allah nigga and making my wife wear concealing stuff won't be useful/beneficial in my life, so I'm not down with it. If that's your thing, fine, you do you and I do me, nigga.
TraceOneInfinite:
--- Quote from: 7even on August 04, 2008, 07:34:39 AM ---Most and for all, Buddhism is something you have to experience yourself and not something you ask a nigga stuff about only to ridicule from the sideline. I know for a fact that praying 5 times a day to that Allah nigga and making my wife wear concealing stuff won't be useful/beneficial in my life, so I'm not down with it. If that's your thing, fine, you do you and I do me, nigga.
--- End quote ---
Look nicca.... I said I wanted to respectfully debate with you nicca, so I don't know if you know anything about debate, nicca, but if its a debate that means I don't have to agree to everything you say, nicca, and if your idea of debating...nicca... is to just say, "you do you and I'll do me" and then make a stick man out of what you assume is me... then you don't know shit about how to make a respectful debate, nicca.
TraceOneInfinite:
--- Quote from: ...thus spaketh Overfiend on August 04, 2008, 03:45:32 AM ---Well, first of all,
the Dhammapada dosn't primarily focus on trying to get people to see this 'Ultimate Reality',
that wasn't Buddha's aim with that, although he himself saw the 'ultimate reality' but seeing that isn't necessarily the basis for anything and not for being a good person or even a buddhist;
the Dhammapada focuses mostly on how to lead a good life, but realization of this 'Ultimate Reality' is not touted as necessary to this end.
The secret of health for both mind and body is not to mourn for the past,
not to worry about the future, or not to anticipate troubles,
but to live in the present moment wisely and earnestly.
In Buddhist countries, if you wanted to persue a realization of enlightenment seriously you would become a monk, but even then you were not gaurunteed enlightenment by anybody.
So not even to the clergy was enlightenment guarunteed, infact nobody is gaurunteed anything and especially not enlightenment,
but it is said that if you pursue this genuinely to yourself, you will not be denied, I believe that.
Peace comes from within. Do not seek it without.
So a buddhist may never see this 'Ultimate Reality'
or people may attain vision of the 'utimate reality' and then realise there is nothing actually 'ultimate' about it and it is simply reality!
I gained nothing at all from Supreme Enlightenment, and for that very reason it is called Supreme Enlightenment.
Now Buddha understood the difficulty in this for the average John Doe, because of course you cannot provide people a crash course in enlightenment, so instead he attempted to provide his outline of what he learnt from his enlightenment and this series of teachings can be found in the Dhammapada.
I personally find Buddha's and Zen teachings useful in my own personal experience through this life, like most knowledge and wisdom it adds context to life's events, but they are also words or wisdom I find echo in heaps of other thangs so 'it' ain't confined to Buddhism, as far as I know my awareness of life didn't begin with an interest in Buddhism and neither is it limited to my interest in that, nor is it supposed to be....
If you really, genuinely want to learn more about buddhism and life in general for yourself as a person I recommend you look into it yourself, because basically it is not really based on religious practice, program or doctrine, but rather through experience and application. Peep the Dhammapada and find yoself a book on Zen and contemplate that within the context of your own life.
But anyway keep asking questions if you feel you need it and we'll try to answer again...but I'm basically saying them question you are asking about Buddhism you gotta look into it yourself and not base your perceptions on it on what some random dudes on the internet or the street have to say about it...
For sake of this debate though, id say word; all living things are One at their essence, as all souls are of the same originally, however in this life Buddhism teaches that we are seperated by our particularities of this life.
The benefits of seeing/realizing enlightenment are great, as I said it is indescribeable itself, but having experienced that; you gain a greater appreciation and respect for life and this world and emphasis with it's suffering. But don't forget Buddha's way through meditaion and contemplation was not the only one way and Buddha acknowledged that theire are indeed many, as many ways possible as there are those who wish to seek. I myself have never meditated a day in my life.
All conditioned things are impermanent. Work out your salvation with diligence.
-the last words of Buddha.
--- End quote ---
As I said in the thread title... I didn't start this thread so I could learn more about Buddism I started it because I wanted to debate. I've already studied and practiced many Buddist concepts thru Islamic Sufism which is quite similar.
Anyway, back to the debate... if you don't mind...
You said the purpose wasn't to find the "ultimate reality" but rather to live a "good life". Well, according to who's objective standard are we supposed to live a "good life"?
Is being "good" raising a family, picket fence, being a good citizen, following Bush's laws? Waving the flag, being "with him" on his war on terrorism. Being on the lookout for suspicious A-rabs that might be potential terrorists? Being a good little tax slave?
Is being good, submitting myself to a life of poverty as a Tibetan monk, shaving my head, meditating all day, going around and begging the local population for change to feed me, and eating off their hard labor?
Next point, you said if I "pursue it (enlightenment), I will not be denied". By this you probably mean that the search is the way, and that enlightenment is in seeking not in attainment. Well what is enlightenment then? And how would one know when they find it or are experiencing it? if they are in fact searching for it how can they be experiencing it at the same time? When does one stop searching and begin living?
Next point, you said the purpose of life is to live in the present moment... But there is a use to looking forward and backward or else people would not do it. It may be that one's current situation or environment is harmful and it is more beneficial to their mind to derive inspiration from the past or hope from the future.
Last point, you said don't search on the outside but search within... Well, every experience we encounter on the "outside" adds another ingridient to our personality, and therefore, our inner world is colored with the experiences and encounters we face in the outside world. Certain scenary or faces and environments we encounter on the outside inspire inner well being. So it is foolish to think we must force ourselves to make the best of a bad situation or environment, because we could waste precious time in our lives doing that, when it would be much easier to instead find an outer environment that is already pleasing to us.
Australian Bastard:
Please don't say you've already studied or looked into Buddhism until you have already done so, I myself have read Sufi poetry and other stuff that is similar, but it would be ignorant for me to just disregard everything else similar based upon that similarity without looking at it myself, as it would be for you too.
The good life standard is according to the Dhammapada (but that is the short answer because the Dhammapada teaches you not to rely on it like some people lean on their holy books, rather salvation comes from oneself) and no; being a monk isn't necessarily the good life, as I illustrated in my last post; it is not necessarily a requirement of the good life to become a monk, I'll disregard the rest of your tirade on Bush and taxes, etc.
however deep your knowledge of scriptures,
it is no more than a strand of hair
in the vastness of space;
however important appears
your worldy experience,
it is but a drop of water in a deep ravine.
-Tokusan.
Now about enlightenment; personally I believe for me it is in both the searching as much as the attainment, I feel you can't attain it without the searching, if you just had it without the context of your search it would not be enlightenment and if you have it without any context you will not know for yourself if you are on that path (more on this towards the end of the post.....) As for what is enlightenment itself, as I said it is indescribeable, it can be described but always imperfectly, so that is why in Buddhist poetry and art it is alluded to but is never described utterly and fully because that is impossible.
there is no beginning to practice
nor end to enlightenment;
there is no beginning to enlightenment
nor end to practice.
-Dogen.
Onto the next point, sure life is about living in the moment and by that I did not imply that the looking to the past or present is irrelevant as you seem to have again assumed.
It is hard to explain this part in my own words, but this being in the present is a characteristic of enlightenment and the good life; it is hard to explain in my own word so heres what the Dhammapada has to convey about that, it starts with your own mind;
Mind is the forerunner of (all evil) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, suffering follows one, even as the wheel follows the hoof of the draught-ox.
Mind is the forerunner of (all good) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind, AFFECTION follows one, even as one's shadow that never leaves.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
``He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me,'' in those who harbour such thoughts hatred is not appeased.
``He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me,'' in those who do not harbour such thoughts hatred is appeased.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hate is not overcome by hate; by Love (Metta) alone is hate appeased. This is an eternal law.
The others know not that in this quarrel we perish; those of them who realise it, have their quarrels calmed thereby.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
^I see this as having far reaching implications for oneself, not just with love or hate, but understanding and how one genuinely pursues it.
Also enlightenment should not be seen as some different place, instead, it is identical to the world or universe humans experience in this life, but it is state of mind that is different through enlightenment.
Now onto you're last point; I agree you cannot ignore the outer world, but by saying that peace comes from within was I discounting the outer world? Again your posts are laden with assumptions. But I'll assume you are capable of such a thing as free and lateral thinking. ;)
But like the quote from the Dhammapada above, its not so much about withdrawing into ones own mind, it is more about building peace within yourself so that you can build on the outside.
TraceOneInfinite:
--- Quote from: ...thus spaketh Overfiend on August 04, 2008, 09:12:02 PM ---
Please don't say you've already studied or looked into Buddhism until you have already done so, I myself have read Sufi poetry and other stuff that is similar, but it would be ignorant for me to just disregard everything else similar based upon that similarity without looking at it myself, as it would be for you too.
--- End quote ---
But as I said above, I have "practiced" the idealogy and way that you are advocating and expressing... only under a different name... it was called "sufism" (or also I intensely studied and practiced James Redfield's Celestine Prophecy series and he admittedly borrows from Buddism) instead of "Buddism" but all the ideas and practices you are expressing were contained within it. And no, I'm not talking about reading a few Rumi poems (as your sticman caricature of me assumes)... but rather I travelled and studied with an Islamic group called the Jammat Tabligh and so many of their ideas and practices paralell everything your saying only they have some additional and minor differences like beards and dress like the prophet Muhammad's "sunnah" rather than the shaved heads of the Buddists. But all the principles of piety, humility, content, finding the beauty in your suffering, your search for truth and insight, looking inward, self-denail and so on and so forth are present in much the same way.
--- Quote from: ...thus spaketh Overfiend on August 04, 2008, 09:12:02 PM ---
The good life standard is according to the Dhammapada (but that is the short answer because the Dhammapada teaches you not to rely on it like some people lean on their holy books, rather salvation comes from oneself) and no; being a monk isn't necessarily the good life, as I illustrated in my last post; it is not necessarily a requirement of the good life to become a monk, I'll disregard the rest of your tirade on Bush and taxes, etc.
however deep your knowledge of scriptures,
it is no more than a strand of hair
in the vastness of space;
however important appears
your worldy experience,
it is but a drop of water in a deep ravine.
-Tokusan.
Now about enlightenment; personally I believe for me it is in both the searching as much as the attainment, I feel you can't attain it without the searching, if you just had it without the context of your search it would not be enlightenment and if you have it without any context you will not know for yourself if you are on that path (more on this towards the end of the post.....) As for what is enlightenment itself, as I said it is indescribeable, it can be described but always imperfectly, so that is why in Buddhist poetry and art it is alluded to but is never described utterly and fully because that is impossible.
there is no beginning to practice
nor end to enlightenment;
there is no beginning to enlightenment
nor end to practice.
-Dogen.
Onto the next point, sure life is about living in the moment and by that I did not imply that the looking to the past or present is irrelevant as you seem to have again assumed.
It is hard to explain this part in my own words, but this being in the present is a characteristic of enlightenment and the good life; it is hard to explain in my own word so heres what the Dhammapada has to convey about that, it starts with your own mind;
Mind is the forerunner of (all evil) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, suffering follows one, even as the wheel follows the hoof of the draught-ox.
Mind is the forerunner of (all good) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind, AFFECTION follows one, even as one's shadow that never leaves.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
``He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me,'' in those who harbour such thoughts hatred is not appeased.
``He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me,'' in those who do not harbour such thoughts hatred is appeased.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hate is not overcome by hate; by Love (Metta) alone is hate appeased. This is an eternal law.
The others know not that in this quarrel we perish; those of them who realise it, have their quarrels calmed thereby.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
^I see this as having far reaching implications for oneself, not just with love or hate, but understanding and how one genuinely pursues it.
Also enlightenment should not be seen as some different place, instead, it is identical to the world or universe humans experience in this life, but it is state of mind that is different through enlightenment.
Now onto you're last point; I agree you cannot ignore the outer world, but by saying that peace comes from within was I discounting the outer world? Again your posts are laden with assumptions. But I'll assume you are capable of such a thing as free and lateral thinking. ;)
But like the quote from the Dhammapada above, its not so much about withdrawing into ones own mind, it is more about building peace within yourself so that you can build on the outside.
--- End quote ---
Most of the rest of your post was detailing how the "good life" consists of carrying a pure mind and heart. And that if actions are done with good intention and pure mind then the results are will be good.
But this is simply not true. There is a natural cause and effect relationship between our actions and their consequences regardless of whether or not they are done with a pure and clean mind or a perverted mind. To deny the natural consequences that exist resulting from our actions is a recipe for dissapointment.
Let me give you and example. You may befriend me as a gesture done with a pure and clean mind with love in your heart for my general well-being. Yet, severely bad consequences could result. I may take advantage of you, and demand you to do many things on my behalf, which distracts you from giving time and energy to the people who really do love and care for you and would not harm you but rather bring benefit to your life. And in the end I am ungrateful of your help and both you and I suffer bad consequences for your supposedly "pure" actions.
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