Lifestyle > Train of Thought
I don't think that there is free will....
Eleven2Three:
--- Quote from: Acolyte Overfiend on April 05, 2009, 07:22:32 PM ---
--- Quote from: rhodamagnetics on April 05, 2009, 11:39:24 AM ---Please, do stop mixing things up.
No one questioned whether humans are have a thinking faculty. No one questioned whether we have a will.
--- End quote ---
?
I thought the thread title was 'I don't think that there is free will...I really don't'.
--- End quote ---
That's what the thread title says, but that's not what the replies are about.
"You don't need to build a house or a toilet, you can sleep under someone else's roof or you can take a shit outside on the lawn, right? Of course you have a free will."
Whether or not you can "take a shit outside on the lawn" has nothing to do with the freedom of the will; it only says that there is such a thing as a will and the ability to choose.
"Every-single moment is an exercise of your will and a choice is made, even in the most mundane of matters like to fart or scratch your ass are choices that have huge consequences, for instance if you don't allow yourself to fart you may get a stomach ache later...."
Same story. You have the ability to choose, but it says nothing about how autonomous those choices are.
The argument from what the ancient Greeks believed, and what Buddhists and Hindus believe, is pretty weak too, although it perhaps does say a lot about how deeply and blindly influenced you are. So what if that's what others believe? What does that say about what is true and what is not?
"IMO, we have choices, those choices impact the world around us and effect the karmic chaos/order."
Yes, yes, and yes.
Now let us bring it back to square one: are those choices part of the "karmic chaos" which is already there, and are they thus always influenced by the course of things, or is there some sort of thing beyond the material existence where the will co-exists?
Mr. O:
how about coming to dubcnn.com. Isn't that a freewill?
TraceOneInfinite:
--- Quote from: pc8381 on April 06, 2009, 06:19:13 AM ---how about coming to dubcnn.com. Isn't that a freewill?
--- End quote ---
nope. Just appears like it is, but really all this was decided way in advance.
its kind of like a hitter in baseball. All we see is the swing. We don't see everything that came before, the wieghtlifting, hours of practice, techniques he learned way back in little league, and so on. Its actually the preparation that goes on in his head before the 100 mile an hour fastball that determines the swing. The swing is just a manifestation of what was already a forgone conclusion.
RETURN OF THE OVERFIEND!:
--- Quote from: rhodamagnetics on April 06, 2009, 03:53:02 AM ---"You don't need to build a house or a toilet, you can sleep under someone else's roof or you can take a shit outside on the lawn, right? Of course you have a free will."
Whether or not you can "take a shit outside on the lawn" has nothing to do with the freedom of the will; it only says that there is such a thing as a will and the ability to choose.
"Every-single moment is an exercise of your will and a choice is made, even in the most mundane of matters like to fart or scratch your ass are choices that have huge consequences, for instance if you don't allow yourself to fart you may get a stomach ache later...."
Same story. You have the ability to choose, but it says nothing about how autonomous those choices are.
--- End quote ---
Isn't that what free will is? The ability of one to choose behaviour and thought within the circumstances one finds themself in?
--- Quote from: rhodamagnetics on April 06, 2009, 03:53:02 AM ---
The argument from what the ancient Greeks believed, and what Buddhists and Hindus believe, is pretty weak too, although it perhaps does say a lot about how deeply and blindly influenced you are. So what if that's what others believe? What does that say about what is true and what is not?
--- End quote ---
Truth is subjective. Some subjective perspectives have objective recognition. So some truths are held to be universal. Therefore what others believe is very important.
--- Quote from: rhodamagnetics on April 06, 2009, 03:53:02 AM ---
"IMO, we have choices, those choices impact the world around us and effect the karmic chaos/order."
Yes, yes, and yes.
Now let us bring it back to square one: are those choices part of the "karmic chaos" which is already there, and are they thus always influenced by the course of things, or is there some sort of thing beyond the material existence where the will co-exists?
--- End quote ---
Some of those choices are but they are barely choices, the more important choices are not a result of karma but effect one's own karma or participation in karma, yes our choices are influenced by the course of things, and yes there is a state where will co-exists.
RETURN OF THE OVERFIEND!:
--- Quote from: Infinite African AND American West Coastin on April 06, 2009, 06:37:51 AM ---
--- Quote from: pc8381 on April 06, 2009, 06:19:13 AM ---how about coming to dubcnn.com. Isn't that a freewill?
--- End quote ---
nope. Just appears like it is, but really all this was decided way in advance.
its kind of like a hitter in baseball. All we see is the swing. We don't see everything that came before, the wieghtlifting, hours of practice, techniques he learned way back in little league, and so on. Its actually the preparation that goes on in his head before the 100 mile an hour fastball that determines the swing. The swing is just a manifestation of what was already a forgone conclusion.
--- End quote ---
Infinite, isnt that just the same as saying 'I told you so!' after something happened.
You had no idea what would happen in the future, you only feel confident in saying that something is pre-determined because you can see it has already occured!
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