Lifestyle > Train of Thought
U kno what I hate more than black people who still complain about slavery today?
virtuoso:
All of my posts have broached the wider issue of slavery, not slavery confined to just one nation. To draw the obvious parallels between black slavery and white slavery.
You see every time slavery is mentioned the average person pictures evil white men enslaving black people when the reality was both black and white and therefore it blows my mind that todays generation of black people should have such a chip on their shoulder about the actions of the white man. Hell, some black groups base their very ideolog/racial hatred on the white man enslaving you.
Fraxxx:
--- Quote from: virtuoso on April 15, 2013, 02:33:51 PM ---
Okay Fraxx, all slavery is horrific, but white children were sold into slavery, they were treated as sub human, the prisoners who were forced to go to the caribbean were treated as sub human, they were disenfranchised, just because the white so called intellectuals apologise for their suffering by using terms like "indentured servitude" does not escape this fact.
The scots retained a history while being slaughtered and stripped of their land, just like the irish, many irish, english scots found themselves being work to death in the sugar mils. As far as the elite of the day were concerned these people were not worthy of respect, pity, they were scum who were there only to serve a purpose for their masters.
Tell me why is it when a group of scumbags rule over a society that for them to view black's with disdain is worse than viewing white lower slass as scum? Let's not forget that the black slave trade would not have been possible without a co-ordinated and well organised slave trade in Africa which included the participaton of black's, the upper class black people. As far as I am concerned history has been skewered so much that it never addresses anything other than fragments which push an agenda.
--- End quote ---
Fuck, somehow my original post got lost. >:( Once again in very short:
I think we're talking past each other. You're right with everything regarding the necessity of telling the whole story. People must realize that there are very few simple answers and that most issues are rather complex.
I never compared different peoples suffering, as if you could rate the quality of what they went through. If that's not cynical, what is?
My only point was, that the different aspects of the history of enslavement of blacks in the U.S. in total are a pretty good explanation for a lot of problems that still exist within the black community.
And the fact that others struggeled as well doesn't make that a less valid point. Where's the problem with acknowledging that? Like I wrote before:
"don't act as if Russia as a whole had a functional society. You can very well blame that on serfdom and what came with it and I can't see a reason to not bring it up as an explanation, as well as black slavery regarding African-
Americans."
I understand that you think that hand-picked parts of history are instrumentalized to reach certain goals, to push an agenda, I agree to an extent. Only, the way that you express your resentment of that practice, you kinda make it sound
like African slavery wasn't all that bad. If that's not your objective and you really just wanna point out that big parts of that issue are surpressed cuz it's serving a certain purpose, I definitely got you wrong.
M Dogg™:
--- Quote from: virtuoso on April 16, 2013, 12:51:38 PM ---
All of my posts have broached the wider issue of slavery, not slavery confined to just one nation. To draw the obvious parallels between black slavery and white slavery.
You see every time slavery is mentioned the average person pictures evil white men enslaving black people when the reality was both black and white and therefore it blows my mind that todays generation of black people should have such a chip on their shoulder about the actions of the white man. Hell, some black groups base their very ideolog/racial hatred on the white man enslaving you.
--- End quote ---
The problem with that is prior to the 1600's, slavery was a nationalism thing. British enslaved Scottish and Irish, Russians put themselves into serfdom, European nations enslaved their African colonies. This was NOT based off of racism, this was based off nationalism and it was based off conquering another people. In fact, when the US colonies set up it's laws in the 1660's-1690's, the British crown disagreed with what the people in the US colonies did. They did not want the people in the Americas defining what white was. To them it should stay British, not white. What these laws did in this country was tell you that one person was better than another because of skin color. NEVER before in history had this happen. NEVER. Never had a people said, we are white, you are black, therefore we are better than you. In terms of British and Irish, or British and Scottish, or rich and poor (especially rich and poor) then yes you saw enslavement. But never because of just color.
Had the settlers just said before, are nation is just stronger than yours, that's why we took you, then when slavery ended, racism would have ended as well. It's what every single empire did before the US colonies, they just said our nation is stronger than yours, we won a war and now you are in debt to us. But instead slavery was based off racial superiority, and it was done to separate white and black servants who rebelled together. It was the first case of the Elite coming together and saying "we need to separate the servant population." Look up Bacon's Rebellion as to why the original elite class in the US would want to do this. The laws that followed Bacon's Rebellion would lay the foundation of racial superiority that until then was never seen. For the first time, instead of British the colony elite said "white" to separate themselves from the rest of the population. They freed the white servant population, gave them all a gun and welcomed them into their false sense of "whitehood." They then changed the laws saying that all servants were now slaves for life, and if you are the child of a slave you would be born into slavery. For the next 300 years, until the 1960's, laws to separate people based on race would be passed over and over again in this country. For 300 years, this land would be founded on the bases of racism and the legacy of racism.
This is why black people complain. Because until 50 years ago, it was legally acceptable to racially discriminate against someone. Right now, still in Georgia, one school has segregated proms and the governor of the state supports that. We are just ONE generation removed from Jim Crow. Now black people are targeted as the labor behind the prison industrial complex. There is no question about it, it will take more than 50 years to heal from 300 years of slavery and racism. 50 years ago, think about how old your parents are. Think about how old your grandparents are. Think about the fact that only 20 years before your birth, it was legal to discriminate against someone, LEGAL.
Aladin:
--- Quote from: M Dogg on April 16, 2013, 02:41:34 PM ---
The problem with that is prior to the 1600's, slavery was a nationalism thing. British enslaved Scottish and Irish, Russians put themselves into serfdom, European nations enslaved their African colonies. This was NOT based off of racism, this was based off nationalism and it was based off conquering another people. In fact, when the US colonies set up it's laws in the 1660's-1690's, the British crown disagreed with what the people in the US colonies did. They did not want the people in the Americas defining what white was. To them it should stay British, not white. What these laws did in this country was tell you that one person was better than another because of skin color. NEVER before in history had this happen. NEVER. Never had a people said, we are white, you are black, therefore we are better than you. In terms of British and Irish, or British and Scottish, or rich and poor (especially rich and poor) then yes you saw enslavement. But never because of just color.
Had the settlers just said before, are nation is just stronger than yours, that's why we took you, then when slavery ended, racism would have ended as well. It's what every single empire did before the US colonies, they just said our nation is stronger than yours, we won a war and now you are in debt to us. But instead slavery was based off racial superiority, and it was done to separate white and black servants who rebelled together. It was the first case of the Elite coming together and saying "we need to separate the servant population." Look up Bacon's Rebellion as to why the original elite class in the US would want to do this. The laws that followed Bacon's Rebellion would lay the foundation of racial superiority that until then was never seen. For the first time, instead of British the colony elite said "white" to separate themselves from the rest of the population. They freed the white servant population, gave them all a gun and welcomed them into their false sense of "whitehood." They then changed the laws saying that all servants were now slaves for life, and if you are the child of a slave you would be born into slavery. For the next 300 years, until the 1960's, laws to separate people based on race would be passed over and over again in this country. For 300 years, this land would be founded on the bases of racism and the legacy of racism.
This is why black people complain. Because until 50 years ago, it was legally acceptable to racially discriminate against someone. Right now, still in Georgia, one school has segregated proms and the governor of the state supports that. We are just ONE generation removed from Jim Crow. Now black people are targeted as the labor behind the prison industrial complex. There is no question about it, it will take more than 50 years to heal from 300 years of slavery and racism. 50 years ago, think about how old your parents are. Think about how old your grandparents are. Think about the fact that only 20 years before your birth, it was legal to discriminate against someone, LEGAL.
--- End quote ---
Well analysed, although there are exceptions. the bigger picture is the difference like you described.
Peace,
Aladin
virtuoso:
Yet I am not denying that the racism was tangible, but what I am conveying to you is that slavery has never been about black and white and while black slavery was going forwards so too was white slavery. The reality is of course that the impoverished blacks were seen as lesser individuals than even the scum bag poor whites because they could not communicate effectively and were seen as being extremely backwards. Fraxx....what happened to black slaves was horrific, many of them didn't even make it dying on the boats in god forsaken living conditions, treated like pieces of shit, However in the South M Dogg as you claim to know about the history then you will no doubt be aware that after the North freed the africans from slavery, they freely encouraged africans to indiscriminately terrorise and murder piss poor southerners, in fact that is where the original Ku Kluxx Klan stemmed from, it was seen as the poor whites protectorate which then of course spawned a a much harder stance, a deeper hatred of black people, the segregation of black people from white people. That is what pisses me off about history MDogg sure you can talk about segregation and i agree it is deplorable but the reason it stood for so long was because your average white person in the south was scared to death following the so called revenge attacks.
There is no doubt that racism and disdain exist and have existed, but to see black people 80's baby's see white people as having held them back is just laughable. To see the black generation of today demand reparations for the horrors inflicted on people they did not know who were around hundreds of years before them is disgusting. To see black people today preaching racism and hatred based upon the actions of people (and a minority at that) from a completely time zone and culture is bewildering. To see liberal white people today tippy toe around black people and apologise for all the ills of people who have been lying in graves for 150 plus years is an indictment of the brain washing which has gone on. I think all racism is bullshit, as for black people of today, they reap the benefits of racist laws like affirmative action. I see that shit slowly creep creeping into the ideology of businesses here too. Except they don't call it discrimination they call it being "positively diverse" and at that moment I am taken back to George Orwell's 1984.
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