It's May 04, 2024, 06:00:49 AM
^I've heard that arguement before how when the Muslim Empire was around (the Ottomons? the Caliph?) they were accepting of other religions living in their territory. The catch is, yes other religions were allowed to live in Islamic lands, but they had to pay more tax, a special tax that was levied onto unbelievers living in Islamic lands. Also other rules like if a Church was next to a Mosque and the Church was in need of maintenance the Christians were not allowed to maintain it or repair the Church so it had to be left to slide into disrepair. In this regard, adherents to other religious faiths were kinda second class citizens. Also, if you were not a Muslim but living in an Islamic country, then Islamic law would not apply to you, neither the punishments but also neither the rights. It was all a far cry from Western secular government today, or even modern authoritarian Islamic government today. But word, over the Inquisition, the Jews wouldve had it safer in Islamic lands.
For instance, in the West, we have laws on anti-discrimination, etc. These laws can't bring about the total end of discrimination or prejudice, but we can at least take it so far; so that people of all races, colours and creeds can, to an extent live together with some dignity, self-determination and peace.
ITS THE ONLY COUNTRY WHERE IF YOU ARE BORN THERE YOU STILL ARE NOT CONSIDERED A CITIZEN UNLESS YOU'RE A JEW-----YOU'RE BORN IN US... YOUR A US CITIZEN DISREGARDS TO UR RELIGION...YOU'RE BORN IN SUADI ARABIA...YOUR A SAUDI CITIZEN DISREGARDS TO UR RELIGION...YOU'RE BORN IN JAPAN...YOUR A SAUDI CITIZEN DISREGARDS TO UR RELIGION...
Quote from: IslamInevitable on August 23, 2009, 03:25:24 PMITS A PARADOX THEY CALL REALITYNON RELIGION IS A RELIGION AS LONG AS YOU CONGREGATE AND ASSOCIATE WITH EACH OTHER ON THIS ESPOUSED BASISWhich not many people actually do mind you. Rather, people who don't profess to any established religion get together for all manner of reasons that involve the actual living of life. The issue is not someone's belief, rather their degree of objectivity, tolerance and humility in the face of actually knowing nothing. Most religions, including Islam, believe God is knowable, but also vastly unknown.Nothing. Everything.In this sense, maybe you can understand something of aethism and secularism.
ITS A PARADOX THEY CALL REALITYNON RELIGION IS A RELIGION AS LONG AS YOU CONGREGATE AND ASSOCIATE WITH EACH OTHER ON THIS ESPOUSED BASIS
Quote from: Illuminati Clique on August 20, 2009, 08:02:56 PMFor instance, in the West, we have laws on anti-discrimination, etc. These laws can't bring about the total end of discrimination or prejudice, but we can at least take it so far; so that people of all races, colours and creeds can, to an extent live together with some dignity, self-determination and peace. This can be a topic for another day, but why do we need anti-discrimination laws? You could just say that we should be punished for the harm we do to other people and be done with it.You don't have to force affirmative action for minorities to be successful. Look at the great success Jews, Arabs, Asians, etc. have had in the West. They stick together and pool their resources and spend within the community and therefore they become successful even more quickly then whites in many cases.Most anti-discriminatory laws only had to take place because of previous laws that endorsed discrimination; such as slavery and Jim Crow laws.
Quote from: Illuminati Clique on August 23, 2009, 05:23:44 PMQuote from: IslamInevitable on August 23, 2009, 03:25:24 PMITS A PARADOX THEY CALL REALITYNON RELIGION IS A RELIGION AS LONG AS YOU CONGREGATE AND ASSOCIATE WITH EACH OTHER ON THIS ESPOUSED BASISWhich not many people actually do mind you. Rather, people who don't profess to any established religion get together for all manner of reasons that involve the actual living of life. The issue is not someone's belief, rather their degree of objectivity, tolerance and humility in the face of actually knowing nothing. Most religions, including Islam, believe God is knowable, but also vastly unknown.Nothing. Everything.In this sense, maybe you can understand something of aethism and secularism. Very interesting exchange between the two of you right here. I agree with brother Islaminevitable that the world has a very limited view of what constitutes "religion". Because in Islam we translate religion to mean "way of life". Therefore, the average American who works and watches football with his buddies and goes drinking at a bar every weekend is practicing his own religion. The bar is like the alter upon which he worships, the local football team he projects his hopes, frustrations, judgments, the coach is like a Preacher or Imam... local team good/ far away team bad.. national anthem before every game, local country good, far away country bad... and he does his work to maintain this lifestyle. There are many parallels that can be made. So in this way I agree with my dear brother Islaminevitable.However, I also agree with Illuminati Clique and I think he makes an excellent point, in focusing on not the religion, but rather the role of subjectivity which leads to intolerance and potentially genocide of an opposing religion or race.
yo illuminati, we gotta have this conversation face to face, cuz you convolute your words way too much for me to understand what you mean...
Sure we can simpy say, "lets just punish people for the wrong they commit to others" but then of course you have to define what is a wrong! Whats the point in punishing that person if the wrong wasn't defined or if he had no knowledge that such a wrong was a wrong. The world is much more complicated than just assualt, murder, battery, etc There are really two types of law: Natural law (informed by religious and spiritual values) and the law of the State. Slavery became a crime, when the State (aka the Leviathan) made it legally a crime.
Theres a reason for affirmative action aka positive discrimination, because lets say we make the law equal. That is, make the law non-discriminatory, because remember back in ye old times it was, let say if we make it equal, it does nothing but preserve the status-quo. Because just simply practising equality, will not necessarily result in equality. If two people start off in incomparable situations, treating them similarly will merely perpetuate this, , furthure accentuating the differences.
Anyway, word, this is getting into a different topic, but the reason I raised it was that, IslamInevitable said that we can never have total objectivity, and we can never be totally separated from our prejudices, I agreed, but cited anti-discrimination law as an example of where objectivity (and the law is supposed to be objective) can take us so far.
The point I'm trying to convey with that Saladin video (Nothing. Everything) and with that last post, is that, most religions or paths of spirituality cite God as being both knowable, but also vastly unknown. Zen is all about being totally ungraspable through explanation. Also I'm sure it says something about this in Koran aswell, I was read the Koran as a kid, but I can't remember verses or anything. But I remember it was something like there are 99 names of Allah that are known to man, but there is also Gods true name, which is only known to God. Therefore the Koran too acknowledges that God is knowable but also vastly unknowable. To me, as I see it: that footballer dude you were using as an example and aethists for that matter, are simply people who cope quite well with this unknowable facet of God. In simply living life and not knowing God, and knowing that they know nothing of God they are incrediblly spiritual and religious by not being spiritual or religious. Because God can only comprehend and understand God, only God knows God's true name; all the other names are imperfect and this is why secularism, aethism and objectivity for that matter are essential in this world. Essential. Essential. Essential. *echo fades out* And none of y’all will ever know God’s real name-'A Bullet Never Lies' (off Ill Bill's Moment of Reprisal, Vinnie Paz's verse)
Quote from: LIGHTS on August 22, 2009, 11:38:18 AMQuote from: RoCcY on August 19, 2009, 04:26:24 PMQuote from: LIGHTS on August 19, 2009, 08:19:12 AMITS SO HARD TO CHOOSE SIDES THOUGH... JEWS AND MUSLIMS HAVE SO MUCH HISTORY...BUT THEY SHOW THEY HATE HEACH OTHER...Jews and Muslims have lived together in peace for years...there is no hate on either side.are u fuckin shrooming dogg?lol look at palestine and israel...obviously there is hatebtw..Palestine=1 country..cant talk for all muslims.
Quote from: RoCcY on August 19, 2009, 04:26:24 PMQuote from: LIGHTS on August 19, 2009, 08:19:12 AMITS SO HARD TO CHOOSE SIDES THOUGH... JEWS AND MUSLIMS HAVE SO MUCH HISTORY...BUT THEY SHOW THEY HATE HEACH OTHER...Jews and Muslims have lived together in peace for years...there is no hate on either side.are u fuckin shrooming dogg?lol look at palestine and israel...obviously there is hate
Quote from: LIGHTS on August 19, 2009, 08:19:12 AMITS SO HARD TO CHOOSE SIDES THOUGH... JEWS AND MUSLIMS HAVE SO MUCH HISTORY...BUT THEY SHOW THEY HATE HEACH OTHER...Jews and Muslims have lived together in peace for years...there is no hate on either side.
ITS SO HARD TO CHOOSE SIDES THOUGH... JEWS AND MUSLIMS HAVE SO MUCH HISTORY...BUT THEY SHOW THEY HATE HEACH OTHER...
Thanks Infinite.Before you made a huge post, I agree with alot of it, but I must admit I don't know much about US social issues or affirmative action in the US. Positive discrimination dosn't have to be racially based however, its just another word, for instance, here in Australia you have to meet certain requirements to be eligable for welfare (such as only earn a small amount of money, no job, etc) so in this sense welfare here discriminates between rich and poor and targets the poor and needy, hence the term 'positive discrimination'. I was talking more from a legal perspective, on what the law should be and justifying it for what it is. The law may say one thing, and I believe it is essential to have laws first, so that society can have something to build upon, but I never argued that the law is a 'magic wand'. Afterall, most countries (including the US and Australia) are bound by the UN International Convenant on Economic, Cultural and Social Rights, and according to this document nobody is suppose to be homeless without shelter, without food, without adequate drinking water, etc. Its all excellent in principle, however it is far from the actual reality. Concerning affirmative action however, in Australia it is kind of a different story. Black people here are indigenous, native to the country, right now, Australia has actually derogated from the UN International Convention on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination and has temporarily put aside its anti-discrimination laws so that it can positively discriminate against indigenous Australians, so this country is engaging in a level of positive discrimination that Conservative Americans would probablly find ridiculous. Now its not an easy issue, indigenous Australians have never really had a motivation to create wealth and such for themselves, which is also fine. Really, before the European settlers came, they lived a very nomadic lifestyle. The government has tried all types of policies including doing nothing, however, many tragic issues within Aboriginal society like petrol sniffing, child abuse, alcoholism, have always drawn back the intervention of the government. Its a sad issue for Australia.Peace
what you are purporting is essentially a nihilistic skeleton of a existentialist ideology... but all forms of practiced ideologies are judged by their own course of existence; in your case you state uS to be that example where, although the reality contradicts it, "freedoms" are afforded to everyone and according to you these are the products of objective idealism. in an existentialist perception, this freedom of attaining pleasure is suitable to everyone's carnal appetite... so as long as that persuit doesnt violate another's persuit;but in your terms if you look at it in a utilitarian perspective its a society thats doomed to implode, cuz the utility of an object is derived from its moral worth, since no moral code is standard as that would be infringing on people's freedom, this spirit of nihilism has led to multiple conflicts that are bound to pour over eventually into an implosion -> dysfunctional america which is the true america and full of contradictions, and the one you paint is only applicable to you!and please dont be a cross cultural judge and state that muslim societies suffer due to the lack of these objective idealism... its only due to the european invasion of those lands that those conflicts arose, and european invasion was incited due to its own ideology of objective idealism which you fervently espouse...