Lifestyle > Train of Thought
100,000+ protesting in Copenhagen?
virtuoso:
--- Quote from: M Dogg on December 15, 2009, 10:07:20 PM ---I just will say this, to deny global warming is to say the world is flat, and to think we as humans can't at least help in slowing down global warming, is to be just retarded. The End.
--- End quote ---
Simplistic soundbites which don't attempt to address anything, we know there is no concensus, we know that the earth has experienced warming in the last 100 years, we know for the last 10 years it hasn't, we know the polar bears are not dying, they can show you footage of an ice cap melting all they like, it doesn't mean that the volume of ice caps overall is significantly melting, you have warm periods and you have cool periods. We know that information has been falsified, withheld, in other words we know that rampant fraud has been taking place which has led to inaccurate (diplomatically put) data. So we know the case itself is based on lies, so for you to ignore that, makes your whole response baseless.
As for the other response given about slowing down the economy, define slowing down? there was already a 5% retraction in the UK economy last year last alone, a 90% cut means rationing out electricity, rationing oil, and the cap and trade system is designed so the richest will continue to pollute, the small companies will simply fold up. I hope you are right and a fracturing does set in, BUT these developing countries know the ramifications of cutting carbon dioxide, it means reducing output, therefore reducing economic growth and with it less wealth. So the reason these countries are jostling is because it has a severe effect on wealth, so it's no different for the west either. When the middle class, particularly lower to middle middle class have just been frozen out courtesy of no real wage increases for well over a decade, they now want to reduce living standards much much further still.
Ask people in the third world if they live in a free enlightened society, and the unanimous answer will be hell no, that's why they want to become developed, prosperity for the many is intertwined with freedom.
M Dogg™:
--- Quote from: virtuoso on December 16, 2009, 05:04:34 AM ---
--- Quote from: M Dogg on December 15, 2009, 10:07:20 PM ---I just will say this, to deny global warming is to say the world is flat, and to think we as humans can't at least help in slowing down global warming, is to be just retarded. The End.
--- End quote ---
Simplistic soundbites which don't attempt to address anything, we know there is no concensus, we know that the earth has experienced warming in the last 100 years, we know for the last 10 years it hasn't, we know the polar bears are not dying, they can show you footage of an ice cap melting all they like, it doesn't mean that the volume of ice caps overall is significantly melting, you have warm periods and you have cool periods. We know that information has been falsified, withheld, in other words we know that rampant fraud has been taking place which has led to inaccurate (diplomatically put) data. So we know the case itself is based on lies, so for you to ignore that, makes your whole response baseless.
As for the other response given about slowing down the economy, define slowing down? there was already a 5% retraction in the UK economy last year last alone, a 90% cut means rationing out electricity, rationing oil, and the cap and trade system is designed so the richest will continue to pollute, the small companies will simply fold up. I hope you are right and a fracturing does set in, BUT these developing countries know the ramifications of cutting carbon dioxide, it means reducing output, therefore reducing economic growth and with it less wealth. So the reason these countries are jostling is because it has a severe effect on wealth, so it's no different for the west either. When the middle class, particularly lower to middle middle class have just been frozen out courtesy of no real wage increases for well over a decade, they now want to reduce living standards much much further still.
Ask people in the third world if they live in a free enlightened society, and the unanimous answer will be hell no, that's why they want to become developed, prosperity for the many is intertwined with freedom.
--- End quote ---
So we should do nothing to make ourselves better and make cleaner burning energy that will allow less pollution in the air.If you don't believe in air pollution, drive in LA in traffic during the hot summer months and then try to see the mountains that are only 15 miles away. You can't. You talk all these economical terms, as if that's the only thing that drives this world, not the responsibility we have to keep it clean. For almost 2 centuries, massive industrialization in our world has changed our environment, it's change rates in asthma (cities with high air pollution have high number of asthma rates), we have increases in cancer (only 3% of deaths in 1900 were of cancer, in 2000, it's up to about 20%), we just live in an unhealthy world.
Another thing is that 1 billion people don't have drinkable water. You talk about causing nations to not be industrialized, well many nations biggest threat is the fact that their countries don't even have drinkable water. If you live in an area were there is a high Somali population, like Minneapolis, ask the ones old enough to remember Somalia if they had drinkable water. More than likely, they didn't. Many countries need to start from the bottom up in their development. Why do these countries never develop, even though they are provided with aid, after aid. You can't start building factories if your people don't even have water. These countries are developing backwards, and they trying to become the next China when they have worst water than Mexico.
Of course people in developing countries don't want a free enlightened society, they want water, food, medicine and education for their kids.
virtuoso:
--- Quote from: M Dogg on December 16, 2009, 05:00:09 PM ---
--- Quote from: virtuoso on December 16, 2009, 05:04:34 AM ---
--- Quote from: M Dogg on December 15, 2009, 10:07:20 PM ---I just will say this, to deny global warming is to say the world is flat, and to think we as humans can't at least help in slowing down global warming, is to be just retarded. The End.
--- End quote ---
Simplistic soundbites which don't attempt to address anything, we know there is no concensus, we know that the earth has experienced warming in the last 100 years, we know for the last 10 years it hasn't, we know the polar bears are not dying, they can show you footage of an ice cap melting all they like, it doesn't mean that the volume of ice caps overall is significantly melting, you have warm periods and you have cool periods. We know that information has been falsified, withheld, in other words we know that rampant fraud has been taking place which has led to inaccurate (diplomatically put) data. So we know the case itself is based on lies, so for you to ignore that, makes your whole response baseless.
As for the other response given about slowing down the economy, define slowing down? there was already a 5% retraction in the UK economy last year last alone, a 90% cut means rationing out electricity, rationing oil, and the cap and trade system is designed so the richest will continue to pollute, the small companies will simply fold up. I hope you are right and a fracturing does set in, BUT these developing countries know the ramifications of cutting carbon dioxide, it means reducing output, therefore reducing economic growth and with it less wealth. So the reason these countries are jostling is because it has a severe effect on wealth, so it's no different for the west either. When the middle class, particularly lower to middle middle class have just been frozen out courtesy of no real wage increases for well over a decade, they now want to reduce living standards much much further still.
Ask people in the third world if they live in a free enlightened society, and the unanimous answer will be hell no, that's why they want to become developed, prosperity for the many is intertwined with freedom.
--- End quote ---
So we should do nothing to make ourselves better and make cleaner burning energy that will allow less pollution in the air.If you don't believe in air pollution, drive in LA in traffic during the hot summer months and then try to see the mountains that are only 15 miles away. You can't. You talk all these economical terms, as if that's the only thing that drives this world, not the responsibility we have to keep it clean. For almost 2 centuries, massive industrialization in our world has changed our environment, it's change rates in asthma (cities with high air pollution have high number of asthma rates), we have increases in cancer (only 3% of deaths in 1900 were of cancer, in 2000, it's up to about 20%), we just live in an unhealthy world.
Another thing is that 1 billion people don't have drinkable water. You talk about causing nations to not be industrialized, well many nations biggest threat is the fact that their countries don't even have drinkable water. If you live in an area were there is a high Somali population, like Minneapolis, ask the ones old enough to remember Somalia if they had drinkable water. More than likely, they didn't. Many countries need to start from the bottom up in their development. Why do these countries never develop, even though they are provided with aid, after aid. You can't start building factories if your people don't even have water. These countries are developing backwards, and they trying to become the next China when they have worst water than Mexico.
Of course people in developing countries don't want a free enlightened society, they want water, food, medicine and education for their kids.
--- End quote ---
Firstly my friend you mistake my words, I am not disputing with you on any of the things you have just said there, I know we pollute, I know it's had a real impact on human health. My point was they are making this whole issue about carbon dioxide and my point was the argument itself is based on lies and deceptions and the alarmist hysteria they have employed does nothing to address the issues of pollution. However meanwhile contrast the pollution in most of the west with china and india, this aimed at the west, when perversely the west has cleaned up a lot.
The most wacky and perverse story I have seen was the ministry of defence announcing it was reducing C02 emissions from it's tanks!, not banning depleted uranium you understand, but just C02 lol. The fact is the world needs C02 because it forms a layer of protection around the earth, now the other fact is, lets say that humans were causing global warming, statistics alone, tell you that the natural sources of carbon are just as responsible, so by that alone, it is a complete falsehood to say that even if every human was wiped out, that global warming would stop.
So this isn't an altruistic ideology and where the transition from pollutant to cleaner can be made quite quickly, then that's all well and good, but they just jumped onto carbon dioxide because since everything we do produces it even right now, your lights, your pc, your monitor, your tv etc etc, then they can use it to control every facet of our lives through a carbon rationing card and while squeezing and squeezing, they will push the living standards further and further down.
It is important to once again put re emphasis (broken record snydrome on the fact that they want 90% reductions on C02, i.e. all activities outside of breathing that produce carbon dioxide they have said will be no more. Now meanwhile and once again broken record syndrome lol, research what contraction and convergence is, they don't want to make life better, they want to consume even more power.
Now as for you talking about clean water, food, yes, it's called the Maslow Hierarchy Of Needs, but if they are dictated to and controlled, then the most they can ever hope for is sustenance, but that is the most basic of needs and the only way they can prosper is by not allowing themselves to be dictated to. The third world is only the third world because it has been held down.
The Overfiend:
The real issue is that there is a dependence on oil and gas that cannot last coupled with an ever-growing energy demand;
in order to remain viable and thrive on this here planet we must change from where and how we use energy.
Its ultimately fear-mongering from all around telling us that this will lead to the destruction of economies and depopulation and genocide, then on the other hand being told we will all suffer if we 'dont act on climate change' anyway. There will naturally be a slow in the world's economies, and famine and genocide will continue as they have always done because this is not heaven its the world. But the aim is that from this period new industry will emerge under new guidelines and with it a potential for greater energy sovereignty.
The human race is not divided into the irrational and the rational, as some idealists think. All humans are irrational, but there are two different kinds of irrationality - those who love old ideas and hate and fear new ones, and those who despise old ideas and joyfully embrace new ones. Homo neophobus and homo neophilus. Neophobus is the original human stock, the stock that hardly changed at all for the first four million years of human history. Neophilus is the creative mutation that has been popping up at regular intervals during the past million years, giving the race little forward pushes, the kind you give a wheel to make it spin faster and faster. Neophilus makes a lot of mistakes, but he or she moves. They live life the way it should be lived, ninety-nine percent mistakes and one percent viable mutations.
-Robert Anton Wilson
The Illuminatus! Trilogy: The Eye in the Pyramid, The Golden Apple, Leviathan
MediumL:
LOL @ people not beilieving in climate change in 2009. I bet some of you don't believe in evolution either :laugh:
How can the CO2 levels in a planet change so drastically over 100yrs which in the universe is little to no time?
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