Jimmy Iovine and Warren G

[Jimmy H.]

Sorry, not buying the argument. Cube's albums aren't getting spins because he doesn't have a major pushing them, not the same as being blackballed and nothing to do with Eminem and Lil Wayne. Dre didn't make the album because he works on a different time table than Cube who had a deadline to meet.

I read the Source interview with Suge locked up (believe it was late 1999 or early 2000 and had Master P on the cover?) and don't recall reading anything of that nature. To say that Death Row was the #1 label when Big died is funny to me. They were on their way down. I wouldn't say it's much different from how Jimmy is handling G-Unit or how he handled Ruff Ryders. They were a major force on the charts for years. However, Suge was locked up and a lot of civil suits were coming in. They had their most marketable act being Dr. Dre signed to his own label and had the rights to all of Pac's music so they saw no need to continue in a business relationship with a label that was caught up in civil trials for literally hundreds of miliions of dollars. They didn't need to blackball Suge or Death Row, all they had to do was distance themselves from it.

The Soopafly and Top Dogg music didn't "all of a sudden" have trouble getting airplay. It was never getting any to begin with. It's not some elaborate situation as to why Pac music gets played and the other stuff doesn't. Established artists have a proven market where as it takes a lot more time, money, and effort to break new acts. That's just how it goes. Cashis didn't get shit for airplay when he dropped that EP on Shady. Was he being blackballed? I'm not saying that there isn't a lot of bullshit red tape and politics in the music industry. However to say it all stems from the evil, greedy Jimmy Iovine pulling a switch and telling everyone what to do is utter, childish horseshit. Yes, the content on "Chronic 2000" was good but as I stated in the previous reply, that's all neither here nor there. I'm still left to wonder why if this blackballing was such inside knowledge, why Priority would not have sued the shit out of Interscope for tampering with their money. Priority had both Death Row and No Limit, Interscope had the still relatively-unproven Aftermath. How exactly would Jimmy be in a position to block them from getting spins? I mean, assuming you're Bryan Turner or one of these guys at EMI, why are you standing back and let Jimmy kill your deal. It's not gonna happen. If Jimmy's going to blackball Death Row, he's not gona stand back let Priority sink money into them and then block them from eating, he's going to fix it so none of these labels even bid on Death Row and they are stuck with nothing. Again, let's think about this. Yes, we all perpetuate this idea that Death Row was so "raw and real" that all these fake-ass labels conspired to destroy them by blackballing them out of the industry but the evidence doesn't support it to me. Interscope isn't going to blackball Priority Records.

[KyleEshna]

Sorry, not buying the argument. Cube's albums aren't getting spins because he doesn't have a major pushing them, not the same as being blackballed and nothing to do with Eminem and Lil Wayne. Dre didn't make the album because he works on a different time table than Cube who had a deadline to meet.

Doesn't Cube have a marketing/distribution deal through EMI?

[love33]

Read this interview here about some of the shady business practices of Interscope:  http://www.deathrizzo.com/index.php?topic=525.0

Fact of the matter is when Suge put together the new roster of Soopafly, Tha Realest, Top Dogg, Daz Dillinger, and Crooked I he got a buzz going in 1999 and then when he got out in 2001, he updated his roster with Crooked I, Eastwood, Kurupt, and he was even working with Juvenile, Ja Rule, and Petey Pablo.  Fact of the matter is a lot of radio stations would not touch his stuff.  It didn't matter how great the quality was, they did not want to air his work.  The "Still Tha Row" video was banned from MTV and could only be seen 2 in the morning on BET.  Some radio stations even ran ads against Suge.  He couldn't get "So Damn Hood" played outside of LA, minus a couple spins on Hot97 when he did an interview there.  "Change The Game" got airplay from Dogg Pound '2002' because Jay-Z was on it and it was on DJ Clue's album, but the stations wouldn't touch "Gangsta Rap" with Crooked I.  He simply had a tarnished name and it didn't matter if he had signed Game and dropped an album they simply were not going to rotate his music.  "Dead Man Walkin" was completely blocked from radio stations because Snoop told them not to play it or they would get no interviews, radio station appearances, and promotions for "Tha Last Meal."  Could you sue for that? Maybe for collusion, but it would get tied up in court for years with a lot of 'he said, she said' that would get frowned upon by judges who simply don't know about music and don't want to deal with what they percieve as using taxpayer dollars to sort out rap beefs.

[love33]

To say that Death Row was the #1 label when Big died is funny to me.

Who was #1 then? Up until 1998, Death Row's albums were all platinum with a couple golds except for "Christmas on Death Row" album.  In 1997, they had 'Gridlock'd Soundtrack' do well with sales, Lady of Rage dropped her album and it did over Gold, and Gang Related went platinum and had a solid movie.  Plus, radio stations were bumping 'All Eyez On Me' (96) like crazy and "R U Still Down" dropped which was a lot of Death Row tracks that Afeni sued over and released them.  And there was a huge buzz around unreleased Pac tracks, Snoop's future with the label, Snoop was on the Lollapolozza Tour, the future of Snoop's career (he got married that year also and "Smokefest" was rumored and never dropped).  Everyone was still shell-shocked at the loss of Pac and B.I.G. was lost in March of that year.  It was a dark year for Hip Hop and Death Row was struggling to hold it's spot but still had it.

[Jimmy H.]

I've read 90% of the stuff in that link already. It's nothing new to me.

Doesn't Cube have a marketing/distribution deal through EMI?

Perhaps but just because a major is distributing your product does not mean they are out there pushing it. Kind of the point I was trying to make. Everyone wants to throw up the idea of "blackballing" whenever someone's records don't get played or something isn't cleared but there's often bigger circumstances involved.

Who was #1 then? Up until 1998, Death Row's albums were all platinum with a couple golds except for "Christmas on Death Row" album.  In 1997, they had 'Gridlock'd Soundtrack' do well with sales, Lady of Rage dropped her album and it did over Gold, and Gang Related went platinum and had a solid movie. Nobody said they weren't still succesful but #1 implies that they had the best-selling albums and top-charting singles. In 1997, not one Death Row single made the Top 100. Bad Boy had three singles in the top 20 alone.

Plus, radio stations were bumping 'All Eyez On Me' (96) like crazy and "R U Still Down" dropped which was a lot of Death Row tracks that Afeni sued over and released them.

There was no Death Row material on "R U Still Down", it was all 1993-94 era Interscope product. Radio was bumping Tupac. Again, it's not blackballing. Death Row had a hot artist in Tupac but it's naive to think that just because the radio gives airplay to one of your artists who is in major demand that they are going to grant the same kind of spins to other artists who you're trying to break because they are on the same label.

"Dead Man Walkin" was completely blocked from radio stations because Snoop told them not to play it or they would get no interviews, radio station appearances, and promotions for "Tha Last Meal."  Could you sue for that?

Priority was furious over "Dead Man Walkin" because they felt it was stepping on what they were trying to create with "Last Meal". Promoting a single like that without the cooperation of the artist or the label he was signed to was never gonna happen. Death Row probably could have tried to sue but Priority was already going at them legally behind it.  Also, wasn’t it Interscope who you originally painted as the villain in this story? The way you’re telling it. Priority just sat back while Jimmy fucked them out of their money by blackballing Death Row product they were distributing. Now, it’s two or three years later and instead of suing Interscope, they’ve dropped Death Row and joined in on blackballing them out of the industry. Somebody want to explain to me how this makes any sense at all? PLEASE. I’ve already asked this twice before. This is the third time now. 

it would get tied up in court for years with a lot of 'he said, she said' that would get frowned upon by judges who simply don't know about music and don't want to deal with what they percieve as using taxpayer dollars to sort out rap beefs.

You have to kidding me. You do realize that there are hundreds of thousands of civil suits like these in the entertainment industry, every year. We’re not talking about two local rappers arguing over a couple hundred dollars worth of studio time. These are record labels arguing over millions of dollars. It’s not a requirement of “knowing about music” or “rap beefs”. It’s called being able to read contracts and understanding the laws and rights of business, which I assure you, any “judge” knows how to do. It’s foolish thinking to argue that either label is going to take a potential loss of millions because they are worried about a judge frowning down upon them.

As far as taxpayers being furious, I suggest you do some research on “civil trials”, which are completely separate from criminal trials, which are decided by the state and footed by the taxpayers.

[love33]

Are you kidding me? You just admitted that he was blackballed with "Dead Man Walkin."  What's not fair about a company who owns the tracks trying to release them and make money off them?  About breaking a new artist you state:

Death Row had a hot artist in Tupac but it's naive to think that just because the radio gives airplay to one of your artists who is in major demand that they are going to grant the same kind of spins to other artists who you're trying to break because they are on the same label.

But it's okay for Birdman and Puffy to get their new artists played -- lets see Mase, Shyne, Drake, etc.  Badboy and Cash Money new artists only flop due to lack of quality, but their artists still get a crack...Death Row artists didn't even get a crack...they never got a fair shake for their second generation artists...Soopafly, Top Dogg, Realest, and Crook never really got a crack

In 1997, not one Death Row single made the Top 100.

Lady of Rage was #7 in Top R&B/Rap singles with "Afro Puffs" plus all the Pac singles

[Jimmy H.]

"Afro Puffs" came out in 1994. I'm talking about hit singles in 1997, the year they were supposedly #1.

Are you kidding me? You just admitted that he was blackballed with "Dead Man Walkin."  What's not fair about a company who owns the tracks trying to release them and make money off them?

The company was not blocked from releasing the tracks and making money off them. The album came out. Radio didn't play the single because it was a three-year-old song that was being put out by another label without the support of the artist or his current label. If they were blackballing, they would have blocked Death Row entirely, not just the Snoop single. Furthermore if Interscope wanted to blackball Suge, they could have put the pressure on him to sign over Pac's music instead of investing their own money into no less than three releases with Death Row logos on them between 1999-2002. I'd argue that distributing Death Row product of any kind is pretty pointless if you're blackballing the company.

But it's okay for Birdman and Puffy to get their new artists played -- lets see Mase, Shyne, Drake, etc.  Badboy and Cash Money new artists only flop due to lack of quality, but their artists still get a crack...Death Row artists didn't even get a crack...they never got a fair shake for their second generation artists...Soopafly, Top Dogg, Realest, and Crook never really got a crack

Nobody said the music business was fair and balanced when it came to that shit. I'm not saying there weren't politics or other issues facing Death Row at that point but that isn't blackballing. Not every new artist on Bad Boy, Cash Money, or Interscope automatically gets played either. Did the next generation of Ruff Ryders all get airplay after they moved over to a smaller distributor? How many labels that don't have an artist-producer running the ship actually get that kind of opportunity? There is a world of difference between "We're blackballing them" and "We're not returning their phone calls because they don't currently have a hit song on the radio". It happens every fucking day in the entertainment industry. Did Van Damme and Steven Seagal go from blockbusters to making straight-to-video shit because somebody blackballed them?

How many artists going from having a #1 hit single to not being able to get any of their songs on radio? The industry is full of "#1 Hit Wonder" tales. So why should it be so odd for a label with its CEO in prison, its three biggest artists no longer around, and no backing from a major to slip out of the top spot relatively quickly.

Your comment that all these other label artists only flop because of poor quality is the usual naive BS. Talent and music quality have never been the top priority when it comes to the industry. The backstabbing and politics exist at every label and are not exclusively aimed at Death Row as part of a master scheme to keep the West Coast down.

[love33]

You make some good points about politics in the industry and we both agree on the fact that there are some nasty situations.  However, your arguments are very much based around the concept that if the artist don't have a powerhouse distributor behind them, they are likely going to suffer the consequences of low airplay and low sales.  And while that IS the case in the industry as it follows trends and such dictated through the airplay of singles backed by majors, it doesn't hold to the fact that I'm saying that "Death Row Records" was a MAJOR.  Everyone looks at Interscope as the big powerhouse but if you go back into time, Death Row was partnered up with Interscope.  They were the heavy powerhouse (I mean look at the situation with Time Warner and the lyrical content with 'Dogg Food,' they didn't change the lyrics).

Now, where we disagree.  There was without a doubt a disdain against Suge Knight and here are some of the industry politics that took front level:

1. Many Eastcoast outlets would refuse to play Death Row music (however, the West rotated East music)
2. Bullshit Theories were made and spread all around the internet about Suge Knight and his involvement in Pac's murder making him look like an evil bad guy.
3. The Interscope deal with Pac music was just that -- they only cared about pushing Pac's music and wouldn't have even involved Death Row except for the fact that Suge was a smart enough businessman at the time that he owned all the master recordings so they had to go through him to release the music and they knew the value behind it
4. Executives and media took the blame for the East/West beef and the deaths around it so all of a sudden the radio content shifts to Pac 'Hit Em Up' to Will Smith 'Just the Two of Us' -- the gangsta element was being wiped off the airwaves, which was the brand of Death Row and the West
5. 'Death Row' was even distorted from some of the tracks on "Until the End of Time"
6. 'Dead Man Walkin' was blocked from radio play to take Snoop's side
7. Unless it's Pac, there was always some reason the media wouldn't rotate Soopafly's "Like It Or Not," Top Dogg's "Cindafella," Realest's "Because of You Girl" ft. Daz, and Crooked I's "Still Tha Row."
8. Interscope even backed the movie where a fake Pac quote was put in where he says "I wasn't happy on Death Row"

In comparison, Puffy could come out with Shyne or Black Rob, Yung Joc, or any other R&B artist (Cassie, b5, etc.) and they would get a shot even if they flopped but Death Row didn't get that same type of treatment...the media loved Puffy's "Missing You" but never played Naughty's Pac tribute "Mourn You Til I Join You" -- there was a lot of disdain and shady things going on against the West

My argument is that Death Row in itself was a brand just like Interscope.  People forget that they dropped the first double album, were the first label to wear their logo on their necks, first major powerhouse label to control the rap game, sold 40 million in a matter of 4 years, and were the first to shake the entire music industry with gangsta rap (they basically took gangsta rap from the streets to the radio).

In response, other people were allowed to use the Row brand of gangsta music, but death row was essentially blackballed from the industry.  And even if you want to look at the label situation (which I argue that 'Death Row' was it's own brand just like Interscope was until they blackballed them), Puffy got his artists airplay, Birdman got and continues to get his artists airplay, and Master P even got his artists airplay on the same distributor the row was on (Priority Records in the late 1990's).

[Jimmy H.]

Death Row was not a brand like Interscope. We're talking two different purposes all together. Death Row was more in the veign of Bad Boy, Aftermath, Roc-A-Fella, Cash Money, Murder, Inc., Ruff Ryders, G-Unit, etc. They are all sublabels of bigger groups like Interscope, Universal, Def Jam, Priority.

Allow me to also touch on a few of your other comments.

  Many Eastcoast outlets would refuse to play Death Row music (however, the West rotated East music)  

Really?  Can you name one hip-hop station anywhere that you can outright prove did not play anything from the Death Row catalog?  Are we talking nothing from Chronic? No Tupac? Or are we talking about breaking new artists?

The Interscope deal with Pac music was just that -- they only cared about pushing Pac's music and wouldn't have even involved Death Row except for the fact that Suge was a smart enough businessman at the time that he owned all the master recordings so they had to go through him to release the music and they knew the value behind it

Right there. That is the music business. Death Row had something of value to Interscope so they had to go through them and do business to get it. It's the same deal with radio. If you're going to blackball a label, you are not going to play some of their records or release some of their music. You're going to block all of it.

Executives and media took the blame for the East/West beef and the deaths around it so all of a sudden the radio content shifts to Pac 'Hit Em Up' to Will Smith 'Just the Two of Us' -- the gangsta element was being wiped off the airwaves, which was the brand of Death Row and the West.

Hit Em' Up was never a big radio favorite... EVER. It was a B-side that caught some spins because of its controversial nature. Pac's biggest radio hits were records like How Do You Want It and California Love.

 'Dead Man Walkin' was blocked from radio play to take Snoop's side

Snoop was promoting a new album with Priority. No radio station was going to push a three-year-old song from the vaults over albums being actively pushed with artist support by major labels. It’s not an issue of Death Row vs. Snoop, it’s common sense. Wu-Tang’s singles were getting radio play, ODB’s single on his album (also distributed by D3) didn’t. For sake of argument, you name me one single on an album that D3 put out in their entire existence that got any real radio play and maybe you’ll have something. Again, it’s the same case with that last Ruff Ryder project that came out on another smaller label with different artists.

Unless it's Pac, there was always some reason the media wouldn't rotate Soopafly's "Like It Or Not," Top Dogg's "Cindafella," Realest's "Because of You Girl" ft. Daz, and Crooked I's "Still Tha Row."

The media has nothing to do with video or music rotation. Media is generally a word associated with journalists in either print, televsion, or radio. Media is a word for the people who report or write opinion columns on the news.

Interscope even backed the movie where a fake Pac quote was put in where he says "I wasn't happy on Death Row"  Said movie was authorized by Tupac’s estate. Death Row has put out movies with Jimmy Iovine’s home address on them, does that mean Death Row is blackballing Interscope?

In comparison, Puffy could come out with Shyne or Black Rob, Yung Joc, or any other R&B artist (Cassie, b5, etc.) and they would get a shot even if they flopped but Death Row didn't get that same type of treatment...the media loved Puffy's "Missing You" but never played Naughty's Pac tribute "Mourn You Til I Join You" -- there was a lot of disdain and shady things going on against the West  Naughty By Nature were an East Coast group on Tommy Boy. Also once again, the media doesn’t play records or dictate which ones get played.

As for this continuing comment about how every label but Death Row gets a million shots even if they flop, it just isn’t true. Bad Boy had several factors. The most obvious being that their CEO, Puff Daddy, was an artist himself. Suge was not. He was in the middle of promoting his own album so he could afford to push several acts at once. The same can be said of artists like Dr. Dre, Eminem, and 50 Cent. Most of their biggest successes as label heads have come from acts that benefited from their direct involvement in the promotion. Eminem’s biggest record sales came off of the album he was pushing at the time of the “Up In Smoke” tour. Puffy was breaking a lot of acts on the ‘No Way Out” tour. 50 Cent was doing similar after “Rock The Mic” with Jay-Z. There was a level of artistic exposure that just wasn’t available for the new acts on Death Row. Beyond not being an artist, Suge was locked up in prison until 2001. When he came out, he was no longer being distributed by a major. He was going through D3, which I’m willing to bet equaled much smaller project budgets than the ones he was getting through Interscope. By the time he was released, there really weren’t any major names left on Death Row anymore so he really didn’t have an artist he could build the label around. In the risk of sounding redundant, “talented rappers” and “marketable artists” are not always one in the same.

People forget that they dropped the first double album….  

Benny Goodman would beg to differ. I suppose you’re talking about hip-hop though. In which case, both Esham and Master P were ahead of Pac.

…were the first label to wear their logo on their necks…  

Really, they were the first label to wear emblam necklaces? If only radio DJ’s had known this back in 1998, I bet they would have dedicated a whole hour to playing singles off of “Chronic 2000”.

first major powerhouse label to control the rap game…  

Now, you’re just embarrassing yourself. Apparently, you live in an alternative universe where Suge Knight traded lives with Reverend Run’s older brother.

…and were the first to shake the entire music industry with gangsta rap (they basically took gangsta rap from the streets to the radio).  

If it were possible for my head to explode reading something, it probably would have happened right there.  Could someone explain Ruthless Records to this guy already. I’ve lost the energy.

I'd also mind you not to confuse "blackballing" with "backlash". Radio stations follow trends. If the public decides that they are sick of something, the radio usually makes it a point not to play it anymore. Gangsta rap had been on the radio for close to ten years when Biggie died so in terms of mainstream appeal, it's not altogether impossible to think that the public might have grown tired of it.
 

[love33]

I think you need to listen to the track "They wanna be like us" on Chronic 2000, it explains the reflection of the influence the label had on the industry.  When Dre and Suge dropped "The Chronic" that album took gangsta rap to places it had never been -- Ruthless Records was nowhere near on the level of Death Row -- Death Row took gangsta rap from the streets to the suburbs.  Read some of the older interviews.  And FYI, "All Eyez On Me" was advertised as Hip Hop's first double album.  Tha Row was a blueprint for future labels like No Limit, Cash Money, Murder Inc. (Irv Gotti gave Tha Row major props for laying the blueprint down for rap), Ruff Ryders, etc.  Death Row even had an influence on Bad Boy because they were the first powerhouse and Bad Boy was the second.  I think you need to really sit back and read some of the old Suge Knight and Dr. Dre interviews and read how Suge talks about how they took gangsta rap to places it had never been.  I think you should examine the sales of Death Row in the five-year span from the time Chronic dropped to 97 and you won't find another label out there who put out that many artists with that many hits.

Also, you still didn't respond as to why Soopafly, Top Dogg, Realest, and Crooked I never got a legit crack with their singles and they were all distributed by Priority (except Crooked, and they even banned his music video on MTV) at the time meanwhile Black Rob, Shyne, Lox, Lil Kim, Loon, and Mase had no problem getting their cracks.  You tell me how that is fair?

Hit Em' Up was never a big radio favorite... EVER

I don't know where you live or if you live in New York or whatever, but "Hit Em Up" was a huge track on the radio and everyone was talking about it -- it was on the single with 'How Do U Want It' that was shipped out to radio and everyone was bumpin it

To say that there wasn't a major cultural shift in the conduct of hip hop including what music gets played on the radio, television, and what music a major will push after Pac & Biggie passed away would be like saying there were no changes after 9-11 in politics and culture.

Can you name one hip-hop station anywhere that you can outright prove did not play anything from the Death Row catalog?

Most Hip Hop stations out East, particularly Boston, New York, D.C., Virginia have been avoiding West Coast music for years -- that is fact.  It's not just new Row artists, but Mr. Short Khop, Chico and Coolwadda, Daz's 'So So Gangsta', Luniz, DJ Quik, and on and on and even Ice Cube.  Cube even talks about it in his new track "I Rep That West" where he talks about how he doesn't care that they won't play his music in Virginia.  Even Shade Shiest was saying that it took him 3 weeks to get his music added in New York because they weren't playing it and it was on the charts and they still weren't playing it

[terrymak]

yall niggas need 2 chill wit dat paragraph shit. i dnt like readin dat much shit