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The official The Dark Knight Rises thread...
DeeezNuuuts83:
--- Quote from: Shallow on May 01, 2012, 05:41:22 PM ---I grow more and more weary of the last two films as time passes. Which isn't to deny that they are the best super hero films ever, because they are (though I really liked Punisher Warzone). What I mean is I'm not hyped for this film. I was when I just finished watching Dark Knight for the first time. I'll watch it and I'll still enjoy it more than any of the past Marvel films, but now I'm going in expected to find a whole bunch of things wrong with it. I wasn't that way with Dark Knight before it came out. I had my issues with BEgins but not as many as I do now. Throw in the issues I have with DK and I can't get myself excited over DK Rises.
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What are the "issues" you have with The Dark Knight?
doggfather:
--- Quote from: Chamillitary Click on May 01, 2012, 10:20:28 AM ---
Anyway, I'm excited. Been waiting for this since 2008.
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Shallow:
--- Quote from: DeeezNuuuts83 on May 02, 2012, 06:23:17 AM ---
--- Quote from: Shallow on May 01, 2012, 05:41:22 PM ---I grow more and more weary of the last two films as time passes. Which isn't to deny that they are the best super hero films ever, because they are (though I really liked Punisher Warzone). What I mean is I'm not hyped for this film. I was when I just finished watching Dark Knight for the first time. I'll watch it and I'll still enjoy it more than any of the past Marvel films, but now I'm going in expected to find a whole bunch of things wrong with it. I wasn't that way with Dark Knight before it came out. I had my issues with Begins but not as many as I do now. Throw in the issues I have with DK and I can't get myself excited over DK Rises.
--- End quote ---
What are the "issues" you have with The Dark Knight?
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Nothing overly major that ruins the film for me, but I thought the two Face story at the end was way too rushed and a bit unbelievable (within the confines of the already unbelievable DC universe). There was no teasing of a dark side for Harvey Dent at all during the film, and no reason for him to jump to the psychopath he became. It's one thing to go nuts after losing your girl thanks to a fucked up police force. It's another to contemplate killing a child.
Now I'm usually not a "in the comics" guy because what works in comic books and what works in film are very different, and also a lot of conflicting portrayals occurred "in the comics" over the years. That being said; in one aspect of the comics Two Face isn't really a villain in the criminal sense. He's a split personality torn between the two ways of fighting crime. One side wants to put them on trial and get them convicted, the other wants to punish them right where they stand. Neither side wants to kill an innocent child. And regardless of what the comics say it just seemed silly watching it on screen.
The accident with his face combines the two personalities and creates one entity that has no preference of which of the two ways to treat the criminals, so he lets the coin decide. Two Face wants justice. One side wants it done through the process of the law, the other wants to take the law into his own hands.
And one little thing that really irked me was when that employee of Wayne Tech discovered the Tumbler as being part of Wayne Enterprises and he brought it to the attention of Lucius; Lucius just jumped to the conclusion that the guy was accusing Bruce of being Batman. As far as anyone is concerned Bruce is the party boy billionaire heir that just owns Wayne Enterprises because of his birthright. Most everyone that works there assumes Lucius is in fact running the daily operations while Bruce just collects the cash. There is absolutely no reason for this guy to think the Tumbler being part of Wayne means Bruce is Batman, and even less of a reason to for Lucius to think this guy is accusing Bruce.
If anything, the logical reason for the Tumbler is that Lucius is running some secret vigilante program using a Batman or group of soldiers dressed as the Batman to fight crime in Gotham. Nothing anyone knows about Bruce would imply that he himself is even capable of being Batman.
DeeezNuuuts83:
--- Quote from: Shallow on May 02, 2012, 06:54:22 PM ---Nothing overly major that ruins the film for me, but I thought the two Face story at the end was way too rushed and a bit unbelievable (within the confines of the already unbelievable DC universe). There was no teasing of a dark side for Harvey Dent at all during the film, and no reason for him to jump to the psychopath he became. It's one thing to go nuts after losing your girl thanks to a fucked up police force. It's another to contemplate killing a child.
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I get what you mean about the Two-Face story having been rushed and squished into such a short timeframe after the Joker had been captured. But again, they weren't pushing Two-Face to resemble the yin-and-yang dichotomy of the Two-Face from the comics -- he was a reinvented character, just like everyone else in Nolan's trilogy. His "dark side" was pretty tame (and really only came out when he held the guy at gunpoint when Batman intervened) and not exactly like a split personality, but it was amplified in a manner that you explained very well, actually. His "jump to the psychopath he became" was a bit sudden, but I don't think the transformation was presented with "no reason." Remember that he wasn't really a villain -- the only people he wanted to punish were those who he believed shouldered some responsibility for what happened to him and Rachel. And it's not as if he went out late at night looking for every firstborn of Gotham -- the only reason he was in a position to kill Commissioner Gordon's family was because he wanted Gordon to know what it felt like to be in his shoes when he was pleading to Rachel (over the intercom) that everything would be okay when she ended up dying anyway.
--- Quote from: Shallow on May 02, 2012, 06:54:22 PM ---Now I'm usually not a "in the comics" guy because what works in comic books and what works in film are very different, and also a lot of conflicting portrayals occurred "in the comics" over the years. That being said; in one aspect of the comics Two Face isn't really a villain in the criminal sense. He's a split personality torn between the two ways of fighting crime. One side wants to put them on trial and get them convicted, the other wants to punish them right where they stand. Neither side wants to kill an innocent child. And regardless of what the comics say it just seemed silly watching it on screen.
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But even in the comics, while Two-Face was still a villain overall. It's not as if "heads" meant that he would save a cat from a burning tree or "tails" meant that he would rob a bank -- it only determined the fate of his victims, for the most part, not quite whether or not he would commit a crime. The Harvey Dent personality of Two-Face wasn't still out for justice the way he was as a district attorney, whereas the Two-Face from The Dark Knight movie, as you said, was out for his new perception of justice (and not being a villain doing bad-guy things), but again, like the comic book presentation of the character, consulted his coin to determine whether or not he would let someone live. It wasn't something done to determine who wins between two sides of a dichotomy but to be the deciding factor of what happens next. The Two-Face of The Dark Knight was still just one person with one mindset.
--- Quote from: Shallow on May 02, 2012, 06:54:22 PM ---The accident with his face combines the two personalities and creates one entity that has no preference of which of the two ways to treat the criminals, so he lets the coin decide. Two Face wants justice. One side wants it done through the process of the law, the other wants to take the law into his own hands.
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If you're referring to the Two-Face from the movie, I don't think that the coin is deciding whether justice is coming from the law or from his own hands -- it was only whether or not he is administering justice. The coin dictating that he ends up not killing the person himself didn't mean that he was turning them in to the police, it just meant that he wouldn't kill them, hence the Joker being let go, but because Two-Face still did feel the Joker had some responsibility for what happened, he flipped the coin on him, but he lucked out.
--- Quote from: Shallow on May 02, 2012, 06:54:22 PM ---And one little thing that really irked me was when that employee of Wayne Tech discovered the Tumbler as being part of Wayne Enterprises and he brought it to the attention of Lucius; Lucius just jumped to the conclusion that the guy was accusing Bruce of being Batman. As far as anyone is concerned Bruce is the party boy billionaire heir that just owns Wayne Enterprises because of his birthright. Most everyone that works there assumes Lucius is in fact running the daily operations while Bruce just collects the cash. There is absolutely no reason for this guy to think the Tumbler being part of Wayne means Bruce is Batman, and even less of a reason to for Lucius to think this guy is accusing Bruce.
If anything, the logical reason for the Tumbler is that Lucius is running some secret vigilante program using a Batman or group of soldiers dressed as the Batman to fight crime in Gotham. Nothing anyone knows about Bruce would imply that he himself is even capable of being Batman.
--- End quote ---
Again, you bring up a good point, since the Tumbler having originally been designed by Wayne Tech doesn't necessarily equate to Bruce Wayne being Batman. But when that employee ended up on the TV show, he was there to reveal Batman's identity (which was stated in the captions on the TV), so it's safe to assume that he had deduced that Batman was Bruce Wayne, even though he didn't insinuate that to Lucius. But after Bruce had saved him when crashing his Lamborghini, the guy and Bruce exchanged looks when the police arrived, almost as if they had come to some sort of silent, unspoken understanding.
Shallow:
I wasn't trying to describe the true Two Face and comparing him to Nolan's Two Face. I was simply pointing out the type of Two face that I like and would like to have seen on screen, and pointing out all the things about Nolan's Two Face that I didn't like. It's just an opinion on what I felt about the film.
As for the Wayne Tech guy, if anything he didn't deduce shit, Lucius Fox gave away the identity of Batman as Bruce when Lucius jumped to the conclusion tat this guy thinks it's Wayne. All the employee said was that he found out the Tumbler is one of the projects worked on by Wayne Tech. My complaint isn't bas much about the guy being able to figure it out as it is about Fox acting so stupid about it. Lucius Fox is much more clever. I don't mean Lucius in the comics or Lucius as I envision him, but the actual Lucius Fox from the film. He wouldn't make such a stupid mistake. And if he did it should be presented as such with in the film; that he really fucked up. Now if said employee was Edward Nigma then perhaps that'd be acceptable.
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