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PACMAN FANS...HELLO,anybody out there?????

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DeeezNuuuts83:
He just got overconfident.  Realistically speaking, he had bounced back from the knockdown, knocked Marquez down, broke his nose and was winning the fight and outpunching him... until he forgot that Marquez is one of the best counterpunchers in the game.

Javii:

--- Quote from: DeeezNuuuts83 on December 15, 2012, 06:28:07 PM ---He just got overconfident.  Realistically speaking, he had bounced back from the knockdown, knocked Marquez down, broke his nose and was winning the fight and outpunching him... until he forgot that Marquez is one of the best counterpunchers in the game.

--- End quote ---

I don't trust compubox numbers at all. They basically had Pacquiao outlanding Marquez two to one? Come on now. Manny like in all of his fights, misses a lot. But Judges and especially some commentators suffer from MannyVision. For fuck's sake, Lampley was almost in tears because Pacquiao was knocked out! All of this PED talk nowadays, it's all fucking karma that has been building up for 3 years. For 3 straight years: Manny, Freddy, and Bob Arum have avoided random blood and urine testing. People claim, Manny agreed Manny agreed, but look at the facts. He never agreed to testing with any of his opponents, when he could have. Excuses ranged from "giving blood makes me weak" and "let the commission do its job". Freddy got caught implying Marquez is on PEDs, and he quickly backtracked once Marquez said "Let's do it, as long as Pacquiao goes in for testing too" He then stated he was joking. LMAO. It's absoltely shameful though that Floyd was given shit for asking Pacquiao to submit random blood and urine testing. HBO, sports writers, and fans gave him shit. Now when they're hero gets destroyed, all of a sudden....PED discussion is on the table.


And in regards to defense. That's a characteristic of a Freddy Roach fighter, especially one that he molds for a long time. These fighters have little to no defense. Look at his 3 big recent profile fighters. Chavez Jr (shitty defense), Pacquiao (below average defense), Khan (shitty defense, and he left Roach). I do give Roach a lot of credit for creating good attack fighters though. 

DeeezNuuuts83:

--- Quote from: Javii on December 17, 2012, 06:34:34 PM ---I don't trust compubox numbers at all. They basically had Pacquiao outlanding Marquez two to one? Come on now. Manny like in all of his fights, misses a lot.
--- End quote ---
Manny was throwing a lot of punches and also landing a lot too, clearly outlanding Marquez.  I don't think that is up for debate.


--- Quote from: Javii on December 17, 2012, 06:34:34 PM ---But Judges and especially some commentators suffer from MannyVision.
--- End quote ---
The judges obviously didn't have "MannyVision" back in June during the Bradley fight, so that goes out of the window.  People say that what the commentators say can influence the viewers at home (which may or may not be true), but the reality is that for the 10,000+ people watching the fight, they obviously don't hear what the commentators say, yet they also react as well.  But obviously when Manny's opponents land punches on him, they get attention too.  Though admittedly I think people in general do get a little excited when Manny starts throwing punches, period.


--- Quote from: Javii on December 17, 2012, 06:34:34 PM ---All of this PED talk nowadays, it's all fucking karma that has been building up for 3 years. For 3 straight years: Manny, Freddy, and Bob Arum have avoided random blood and urine testing.
--- End quote ---
Well, they have never avoided urine testing, so that's an inaccuracy right there.  It's been in every fight.  And speaking of which, they both tested negative, so there's not much else to say about PEDs for either of them.  Effective or not, remember that it was URINE tests, not blood tests, that caught Berto and Petersen earlier this year, so it's not like they don't work.  I'm not sure about Morales' test being urine or blood, but I think that was supposedly a false positive.  It's just silly when people try to act like Manny doesn't want drug testing at all, which obviously isn't the case.


--- Quote from: Javii on December 17, 2012, 06:34:34 PM ---BPeople claim, Manny agreed Manny agreed, but look at the facts. He never agreed to testing with any of his opponents, when he could have. Excuses ranged from "giving blood makes me weak" and "let the commission do its job".
--- End quote ---
That was true in the beginning, but if you followed boxing news at all, Manny's side began to make compromises and eventually accept the blood testing.  I think it was stupid for them to avoid it in the beginning, but the fact remains that they did agree to the full blood testing demands (with no cutoff) in 2011.  But the problem was that whenever Floyd was asked about if he would fight Manny, he would redirect attention to the blood tests.  For example, after he beat Cotto, I think he was asked about it and the money split was brought up (where Floyd made the completely unreasonable demand of Manny only getting $40 million while he got to keep the rest, which likely would've ended up being well in excess of $100 million), he avoided that topic and again talked about blood testing, making it seem like that was the road block while conveniently drawing attention away from the money issue.  Besides, he wouldn't agree to testing with his opponents when no one other than Mayweather was demanding it.  In Pacquiao-Marquez III, there were also mentions of Marquez's physique, but Manny's side specifically said that they didn't feel like asking Marquez to take blood tests since that would have been hypocritcal of them.  And they stuck to it.


--- Quote from: Javii on December 17, 2012, 06:34:34 PM ---Freddy got caught implying Marquez is on PEDs, and he quickly backtracked once Marquez said "Let's do it, as long as Pacquiao goes in for testing too" He then stated he was joking. LMAO.
--- End quote ---
That's not true.  Roach has always been a joking-kind of guy, and he's not going to throw serious accusations like that when his own fighter got accused of it and sued his accusers and won in court.  Roach said he was joking after Marquez's trainer threatened legal action against him.


--- Quote from: Javii on December 17, 2012, 06:34:34 PM ---It's absoltely shameful though that Floyd was given shit for asking Pacquiao to submit random blood and urine testing. HBO, sports writers, and fans gave him shit. Now when they're hero gets destroyed, all of a sudden....PED discussion is on the table.
--- End quote ---
But they're not holding anyone to double-standards.  With Marquez, Roach just made ONE comment about him, and it was him alone.  Manny, Ariza, Koncz, Arum, etc. didn't make any comments about Marquez and PEDs.  Additionally, they did not demands any tests of Marquez beyond what the NSAC requires.  I don't blame Floyd for wondering if Manny was on PEDs, but they went pretty far with their stance, from requiring random blood testing (and shifting their requirements -- remember that during the first round of negotiations, Floyd's side allowed a 14-day cutoff before the fight, then they ended up wanting random tests up until the day of the fight) and making repeated blatant accusations of PED use not just from Floyd but Floyd Sr., Roger and Oscar too.  The fact that it went to court and ended up in a settlement and a verbal retraction of their accusations shows what it was.


--- Quote from: Javii on December 17, 2012, 06:34:34 PM ---And in regards to defense. That's a characteristic of a Freddy Roach fighter, especially one that he molds for a long time. These fighters have little to no defense. Look at his 3 big recent profile fighters. Chavez Jr (shitty defense), Pacquiao (below average defense), Khan (shitty defense, and he left Roach). I do give Roach a lot of credit for creating good attack fighters though.
--- End quote ---
I agree with you there, 100%.  I suppose Roach's idea for a good defense being a good offense is only good when his fighter can throw punch after punch to the point where his opponent can't fire back, at least not effectively.  He's introduced things like better head movement, but not much beyond that.  But he clearly doesn't emphasize it enough to the point where the fighter sticks with it, since even something so basic as that goes out of the window after a couple of rounds.  I know that is one thing that Floyd Sr. has always commented on about Manny, saying that his defense is poor and his head movement is minimal.

In the end, I hope Manny bounces back -- even Floyd has gone on record and said that too, as uncharacteristic as it was to read those statements.  While Marquez clearly has had the best performance between the two of them in their four fights, I still think that he owes it to Manny to give him another shot, since Manny gave him a shot when the official stats for Marquez were 0-2-1.  Even the rubber match was iffy at first, since that is usually reserved for when the score is 1-1, not 1-0-1 (or 0-1-1 for Marquez).  And if he loses again, then that story ends and Manny should retire if it's either a one-sided fight or another KO.

Javii:
1. It is up for the debate. Look at the fight, the compubox clearly favors Manny.

2. Crowd is the worst indicator of how close a fight is. Most of them have horrible views of the fight. They thought De La Hoya was robbed vs Mayweather LOL

3 and 4. Pacquiao has never submitted himself to a blood test. Talking and these verbal so called agreements that come from outside show nothing. Put it into action.

Pacquiao had a chance to get blood tested for these fights, but never chose to.
-Clottey
-Margarito
-Cotto
-De La Hoya
-Marquez III and IV
-Bradley.

How about do the damn thing instead of claiming to be in favor of it.


They agreed to 14 day cut off date, because Top Rank was fucking crying about it. Once they agreed to 14 days, Top Rank chose to fight Clottey instead. STRAIGHT KARMA. Pacquiao was never fucking questioned by the sports writers, HBO, and majority of fans. Here you go on the days of one of the biggest knock outs in the history of the sport, then came the PED talk for Marquez. Oh so now it's time to clean up the sport when their damn idol loses in a vicious fashion.

Javii:
How simple would have been for not only negotiations but to just shut up the critics, was to submit himself to random blood testing in any of his numerous fights. And according to the chemists out there that work with sport athletes, your team has to be completely moronic to get caught with a urine test.

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