so quik always says he produced whitney and janet...

[Sir Petey]

so then daz has NEVER been a producer correct?

[bouli77]

If you're not overseeing the creation of the song from start to finish then you aren't producing.

this definition is very flexible in the rap industry. a lot of people, especially in the east, get producing credits just for making the beat. and that's where I agree with Petey where he said that there's a blurry line between a producer, a musician, and an engineer. because a lot of rap releases aren't very professional, a lot of them are independent, so they're not very strict and accurate when it comes to credit, and you can have stubborn people that will do anything to get producing credit. in the end we don't really know who did what when it's simply writtent "produced by", if the credits are more detailed then we can get an insight into the production of the song but then again it's written, the information given can be false.

Death Row especially were not very reliable with their credits. We have learned over the years that Dre was involved somehow in the creation of Big Pimpin', and 21 Jump Streets, on the former the booklet says "produced & mixed by Daz" and on the latter Dre gets mixing credit. Snoop said in interviews that Dre is the reason why What Would You Do sounds so good, and he's only credited as the one who mixed the record. Same goes for All Eyez On Me, the credits aren't very detailed, and we have learned that Quik had a big hand in the creation of Skandalouz because he played fender rhodes on it and had a bass player redo Daz's beat.

I know we've had this type of discussions time and time again but the definition of producing a song is very blurry. Let's say the listed producer oversaw the creation of the song, did the beat, but then had the musicians do their things and the engineer record and mix the song, then sure the listed producer deserves his credits, but maybe the musicians added their expertise to the song by modifying elements to the song (like chord progression / bridge / etc.) because they have a better knowledge of music than the producer, and the engineer maybe has more experience and a better ear than the producer and downplayed some elements of the instrumental and insisted on others, shouldn't they get producing credits too ?

[Sccit]

bottom line, if something says "produced by dre", then dre poured a whole lot more of his heart and soul into the record than the cat who came to him with a simple beat loop. any muthafucka with fruity loops can just sit there and think up a dope lil rift, but how many cats can actually produced a track? like jimmy said, producing is a whole lot more work than just comin up with an idea for a beat....thats why tracks like "kush", "topless" etc. should have a "produced by dr dre" credit, but since the definition of production has become so skewed and because mufuckaz nowadays think like petey, then khalil gets the production....in 1992, it woulda said "produced by dr dre", and rightfully so, because he did the bulk of the work in crafting the beat to perfection and making it hit as it should....


lemme use one of ur beats as an example...imagine if u sent dre that "g shit" beat u sent me the other day. what if dre got his hands on it, completely re-did it with live instruments, got the drums hitting to perfection, re-worked the bassline to a t, added signature dre build-ups, structured it to perfection with new melodies comin in and out + alla that shit. it would end up havin the dre signature sound, comin from ur idea. in that sense, if dre's doin all the work in bringin that muthafucka to life, he's producing the track. it should say produced by dr. dre and king petey.....just like "2001" the whole album said "produced by dr. dre and mel-man". best believe, dre was doin all the magic, though

[Sir Petey]

bottom line, if something says "produced by dre", then dre poured a whole lot more of his heart and soul into the record than the cat who came to him with a simple beat loop. any muthafucka with fruity loops can just sit there and think up a dope lil rift, but how many cats can actually produced a track? like jimmy said, producing is a whole lot more work than just comin up with an idea for a beat....thats why tracks like "kush", "topless" etc. should have a "produced by dr dre" credit, but since the definition of production has become so skewed and because mufuckaz nowadays think like petey, then khalil gets the production....in 1992, it woulda said "produced by dr dre", and rightfully so, because he did the bulk of the work in crafting the beat to perfection and making it hit as it should....


lemme use one of ur beats as an example...imagine if u sent dre that "g shit" beat u sent me the other day. what if dre got his hands on it, completely re-did it with live instruments, got the drums hitting to perfection, re-worked the bassline to a t, added signature dre build-ups, structured it to perfection with new melodies comin in and out + alla that shit. it would end up havin the dre signature sound, comin from ur idea. in that sense, if dre's doin all the work in bringin that muthafucka to life, he's producing the track. it should say produced by dr. dre and king petey.....just like "2001" the whole album said "produced by dr. dre and mel-man". best believe, dre was doin all the magic, though

because hes good with music form a technical standpoint? if thats the case brian big bass gsrdner and bernie grundman produced 90 percent of the music we grew up on.


dre picks and chooses who he does this kind of shit with...i heard a story about him totally replaying havocs start from scratch beat and didnt take one iota of the production credit then ive heard daz stories how dre put a cymbal on a beat and then it came out PRODUCED BE DR DRE.

[Sccit]

then ive heard daz stories how dre put a cymbal on a beat and then it came out PRODUCED BE DR DRE.

LOL if u believe this


it's a lot more than bein good with music from a technical standpoint, my dude.....it actually has a lot to do with having a musical ear and bein the perfectionist that dre is, he knows what goes where and why, what sounds best, what drops where, the perfect build-ups for a chorus, what drums sound hits the hardest for that certain style of beat, etc. etc.....basically, he's a musical genius, and those who actually understand music and have worked with him will all attest to that.

[Jimmy H.]

i wouldnt claim i produced that solely when all i did is  help bring another mans ideas to fruition...
 

Hate to burst your bubble but bringing ideas to fruition, be it your own, an artist's, or a label executive's, is the definition of "producing".

I know we've had this type of discussions time and time again but the definition of producing a song is very blurry. Let's say the listed producer oversaw the creation of the song, did the beat, but then had the musicians do their things and the engineer record and mix the song, then sure the listed producer deserves his credits, but maybe the musicians added their expertise to the song by modifying elements to the song (like chord progression / bridge / etc.) because they have a better knowledge of music than the producer, and the engineer maybe has more experience and a better ear than the producer and downplayed some elements of the instrumental and insisted on others, shouldn't they get producing credits too ?

I would say whether or not, they get credit is entirely up to the guy who is being paid to "produce". The producer is not accidentally surrounding himself with talented people. They are there for a reason and it's not just do what he tells them to do like puppets. This is true at any level. The producer's job is to screen all these ideas in a room full of brains and egos and see which work best for the overall, end product. This isn't grimey, industry practice. This is how being the captain of the ship works. This is true of great lawyers, sports coaches, film directors, military generals, world leaders. All have brilliant and creative minds doing the foot work and research, bringing them strong ideas, and it becomes their job to fine-tune it and make the very best of it. If they don't, they take the heat because their name is behind it.

[Sccit]

^precisely

[Spoonie Luv]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/vSzkWw1tJ7A" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/vSzkWw1tJ7A</a>

[chorus]
who been there, who done that
you got snapped, becuz you still rap
a million mc'z on this planet earth
better watch your back and peep the game
or you will get jerked [x2]

[verse I]
no question the real about d-r-e
that he's been there had me written ryhme for free
ain't trying to give a nigga no roy-yal-tee
make a mil off my shit and give me a few g'z
since way back when he was with eazy
stealing credits from snoop and the d.o.c.
can't forget barney rubbles and the d-a-z
ain't deshing on his own since 73'
worldwide
can't deinied that the fact you lie
got niggas steady working while you steady jerking
on the side it's not your style see you know what's really fowl
these niggas wonder how you do it with a smile
it's the real not out of the spike
if it wasn't for suge knight you'll be working for tamica wright
do your math before the aftermath
or feel the warth
i'm kicking for real for the niggas who don't know the half

[chorus]

[verse II]
young black ebenezer scrooge betray us like caeser
pocket sqeezer gas my head like some good refer
cuz' a fool gets his dope all slit
i guess i played the fool and he got what he could get
but i'm a little wiser now
so i guess he got to find another pimp-pal
and jack they style and live off they flows
he wanted me to fire my manager (what)
she was asking about my pesos
doing shit like that, you'll never be the quincey jones of rap
it only gets you wipe off the map
you out to screw
you got my loot i'm gonna sue but if you were true
you wouldn't do what you do
but instead you take other niggas ryhmes and beats
and say you did them becuz you twisted and twick
j-flex with the real
comeing from eastside of the crew
letting the whole fucking world know who

[chorus]

[verse III]
i should be a millionair with mad loot to spear
but when the chopper told me that the loot wasn't there
somebody wasn't playing fair
off my ends dre was bubbleing
ain't nuthin' goin' on but the fuckin' publishing
never thought flex could read between the lies
and when i figure out your plot you act surprise
you diguise your grieves with a grin
and yet you got to pay me one day or hit the courtroom once again
"boolayall"
pay me my ends or take the fall you dying and indicining but i come raw
give me the cash and take a foot up yo azz
and bounce on through
cuz i'm a let the world know who

[Sccit]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/vSzkWw1tJ7A" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/vSzkWw1tJ7A</a>

[chorus]
who been there, who done that
you got snapped, becuz you still rap
a million mc'z on this planet earth
better watch your back and peep the game
or you will get jerked [x2]

[verse I]
no question the real about d-r-e
that he's been there had me written ryhme for free
ain't trying to give a nigga no roy-yal-tee
make a mil off my shit and give me a few g'z
since way back when he was with eazy
stealing credits from snoop and the d.o.c.
can't forget barney rubbles and the d-a-z
ain't deshing on his own since 73'
worldwide
can't deinied that the fact you lie
got niggas steady working while you steady jerking
on the side it's not your style see you know what's really fowl
these niggas wonder how you do it with a smile
it's the real not out of the spike
if it wasn't for suge knight you'll be working for tamica wright
do your math before the aftermath
or feel the warth
i'm kicking for real for the niggas who don't know the half

[chorus]

[verse II]
young black ebenezer scrooge betray us like caeser
pocket sqeezer gas my head like some good refer
cuz' a fool gets his dope all slit
i guess i played the fool and he got what he could get
but i'm a little wiser now
so i guess he got to find another pimp-pal
and jack they style and live off they flows
he wanted me to fire my manager (what)
she was asking about my pesos
doing shit like that, you'll never be the quincey jones of rap
it only gets you wipe off the map
you out to screw
you got my loot i'm gonna sue but if you were true
you wouldn't do what you do
but instead you take other niggas ryhmes and beats
and say you did them becuz you twisted and twick
j-flex with the real
comeing from eastside of the crew
letting the whole fucking world know who

[chorus]

[verse III]
i should be a millionair with mad loot to spear
but when the chopper told me that the loot wasn't there
somebody wasn't playing fair
off my ends dre was bubbleing
ain't nuthin' goin' on but the fuckin' publishing
never thought flex could read between the lies
and when i figure out your plot you act surprise
you diguise your grieves with a grin
and yet you got to pay me one day or hit the courtroom once again
"boolayall"
pay me my ends or take the fall you dying and indicining but i come raw
give me the cash and take a foot up yo azz
and bounce on through
cuz i'm a let the world know who

it's a diss about dre, of course he's gunna say that ol' played out BS...it comes from people who share the same logic petey displayed. he steals beats in the same sense that a head coach steals ideas from his assistant coaches LOL

[Spoonie Luv]

Watch @ 0:54 mark

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/SPrB0R0skWA" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/SPrB0R0skWA</a>

[bouli77]

I would say whether or not, they get credit is entirely up to the guy who is being paid to "produce". The producer is not accidentally surrounding himself with talented people. They are there for a reason and it's not just do what he tells them to do like puppets. This is true at any level. The producer's job is to screen all these ideas in a room full of brains and egos and see which work best for the overall, end product. This isn't grimey, industry practice. This is how being the captain of the ship works. This is true of great lawyers, sports coaches, film directors, military generals, world leaders. All have brilliant and creative minds doing the foot work and research, bringing them strong ideas, and it becomes their job to fine-tune it and make the very best of it. If they don't, they take the heat because their name is behind it.

the thing is you obviously talk about producers ala Dre which in the rap game are clearly the exception. you have a host of superproducers like Dre who capitalize on the concentration of talent that surrounds them and who are the creative force. that's one way of producing tracks. apart from these superproducers,  I don't see this happening for your regular rap game producer, who's a beatmaker that might be playing keyboard a little bit but not that well but who might use a few musicians (Warren G for example). and in that case we might wonder who gets producing credit ?

My point is that in rap, the word "producer" has been debased like never before. When you read a Beatles song "produced by Phil Spector", you know damn well Phil Spector didn't compose the song and didn't play instruments but gave his input and musical direction. whereas in rap a producer is often associated with the "composer" of the track, the man responsible for either the instrumental or the entire track, from the chorus to the way the rapper punches. so the producer can either B : the artist (if he chose the musical direction, said what sample should be used, told the producer/musician to play this way and not that way), the beatmaker (most of the time that's the case), the musicians (composer is almost synonymous with producer in rap, the engineers, the A&R (who's gonna tell you to give this or that direction to a particular song).

If you read booklets, usually there's only "produced by", "co-produced by". But sometimes you have "composed by" with "music by" and finally "produced by", but that is the exception and that usually concerns big budget album. that's much more accurate, but the problem with rap music is that it's more amateur than professional, there are more home-made, underground and independent albums being released than anything, and therefore they can use the word producer for whatever seems correct to them, not to a standardized norm.

as far as Quik for In Da Club, I don't believe he was anywhere near the creation of the song and can't claim a producer credit. just because Dre used his drum sounds doesn't mean shit, it must feel nice for Quik to know that's his sound on one of the most popular tracks of its days but realistically he wasn't involved in the production of the song in that case.

[makaveliapostle]

and i don't doubt it, but what exactly did he do for them? i'm sure it must be some ghost production or something, cause as far as i can gather he mixed a record for whitney (fine) which is prod. raphael saadiq? maybe produced more by quik in reality, or both of them. janet though, there's a remix of 'all for you' and that's it? just a remix for a single, no new vocals. not something you'd normally be in the studio for. i always thought 'go deep' sounded like a heavily quik influenced track, but there must be something else he did.

anyone got any credits or insight into this?

well, i think you sort of captured the extent of his work with them in your own question.  it seems tip and sadeeq produced "fine" for whitney and you said quik mixed it.  it also apparently features the south central chamber orchestra.  i could see quik helping with the arrangement and engineering of the orchestra considering he has performed live with string sections.  it's also woth noting that this song was featured on arista records.  it's probably no coincidence that quik's long time label perhaps recruited him for some work on the record.  the overall production has somewhat of a quik feel to it, in comparison to the remixes he did around this time for other artists. 

and in regrards to janet, it does seem that the remix for "all for you" is just that - a remix.  so, in a way he worked with these artists, whether directly in the studio or whether he was just requested by whitney and janet to do some work without them physically being there - we probably won't know.  but either way, he did "work" with both these artists in some fashion.

and as for the old quik forum....i remember it, but didn't really find out about it until after it kind of tapered off.  i think i found the forum when i found an episode of "weakest link" with a bunch of rappers on there.  it was fucking hilarious.  quik said something like "the 1980s called and want their hairstyle back" to the host and nate dogg replied to host's question "why are you hands in you pockets" with, "because i'm trying not to steal anything."  shit was classic.  i used to have a poor quality video of it on my old computer but can't find it.  anybody have this???!!!

[Sccit]

wtf? there was a weakest link with nate dogg and quik? lmao some1 up that shit .

[Sir Petey]

i remember watching that shit ist was funny


and props to bouli for breaking shit down...you cant really say shit else. (even though im sure some windbag will come thru and try lol "NO dre is a magical artist and he can blah blah...."


thread killa.

[Matty]

and i don't doubt it, but what exactly did he do for them? i'm sure it must be some ghost production or something, cause as far as i can gather he mixed a record for whitney (fine) which is prod. raphael saadiq? maybe produced more by quik in reality, or both of them. janet though, there's a remix of 'all for you' and that's it? just a remix for a single, no new vocals. not something you'd normally be in the studio for. i always thought 'go deep' sounded like a heavily quik influenced track, but there must be something else he did.

anyone got any credits or insight into this?

well, i think you sort of captured the extent of his work with them in your own question.  it seems tip and sadeeq produced "fine" for whitney and you said quik mixed it.  it also apparently features the south central chamber orchestra.  i could see quik helping with the arrangement and engineering of the orchestra considering he has performed live with string sections.  it's also woth noting that this song was featured on arista records.  it's probably no coincidence that quik's long time label perhaps recruited him for some work on the record.  the overall production has somewhat of a quik feel to it, in comparison to the remixes he did around this time for other artists. 

and in regrards to janet, it does seem that the remix for "all for you" is just that - a remix.  so, in a way he worked with these artists, whether directly in the studio or whether he was just requested by whitney and janet to do some work without them physically being there - we probably won't know.  but either way, he did "work" with both these artists in some fashion.

and as for the old quik forum....i remember it, but didn't really find out about it until after it kind of tapered off.  i think i found the forum when i found an episode of "weakest link" with a bunch of rappers on there.  it was fucking hilarious.  quik said something like "the 1980s called and want their hairstyle back" to the host and nate dogg replied to host's question "why are you hands in you pockets" with, "because i'm trying not to steal anything."  shit was classic.  i used to have a poor quality video of it on my old computer but can't find it.  anybody have this???!!!

well thanks for the reply. i thought as much, but you never know when somebody with inside knowledge is gonna pop up and enlighten us with info on quik's many ghost productions.

as for the weakest link episode, enjoy http://www30.zippyshare.com/v/64448953/file.html