Last night I attended a public lecture by a Sudanese Shiek...truth about Sudan

[infinite59]

Here are some key points from the presentation.

-Yes, the Jan Jaweed are what we would call in America, "thugs" and "gangsta's".  But one Sudanese official told America, "We will stop the Jan Jaweed when you find Bin Laden"... meaning that the Jan Jaweed, perform their raids, hide out amongst the people, then reappear, do more dirt, hide out again, and on and on.  They have been around for a long time, but they are very hard to identify, they are not an organized group with an organized leader, but rather a mysterious group of bandits who's way of life is dependant on raiding farms and villages.

-There is NO ETHNIC CLEANSING[/i].  Last night the Shiek had his son get up and stand next to him.  Both of them are very dark skinned, but his son has a long looking nose that is an Arab feature, the Shiek explained that he would be classified as an African and his son would be classified as an Arab. That really, almost all of Sudan is very black and African, (except for a few select Arab tribes) although some of it's people may have Arab features.  The Sudanese government for example, is very black, and to any of us we would identify them as black African.

-The government really doesn't have much involvement in the problem.  They are not totally innocent, but they are definitely not totally responsible.  Some people of the Jan Jaweed joined military wings of the government, just to obtain weapons to pursue their own vigilante objectives.

-The government has absolutely zero involvement in any of the reported "raping" that has taken place in Sudan.  It is possible that some ignorant individual amongst the Jan Jaweed may raped a women during their raids, but rape is something in the Sudan that is punishable by death of stoning, and it is something that is HATED[/i] and NEVER[/i] happens in the Sudan.

-The severity of the conflict has been severely miscalculated.  The number killed is less than half that of the reported number.  The number of refugee's is also much smaller than is being reported.  Many of the refugee's live and eat better on the food they are recieving at refugee camps, then the standard of living they had in their villages back home, this has motivated some of them to exzagerate the conflict and leave their homes for refugee camps.

-It is not a situation where the North is Muslim and the South is Christian.  Only a small percentage of the South is Christian and despite many efforts made by the West to Christianize the South, the number of Christians is dwendling.   



*************************************

....The Shiek offered some other items that fueled the conflict I can only touch on a few here


-Sudan's oil producing capabilities[/i]!  Sudan knew it had oil decades ago, but Saudi Arabia bribed them into not producing their oil so that they could keep their monopoly on oil productions.  In the recent years, Sudan has hired Iranian and Chinese companies to come in and begin pumping oil out of the Sudan.  Since China is the biggest oil consumer in the world, and they are trading partners with Sudan, they are able to veto America and Britian in the United Nations, and protect Sudan from Western involvement.  Sudan has spent it's oil revenue's on it's infrastructure and it has biult many hospitals and universities with it.

-Sudan is the largest country in Africa and has many countries upon it's borders.  It has so many unique tribes and regions that in and part of neighboring countries and if you travel from one region to another in Sudan it is like going to a whole nother country.

-Sudan has a military style government and sometimes they try to force their issue's at the barrel of a gun.  This causes many people to uprise against the government.  For example they made a deal with South Sudan and neglected Western Sudan (Darfour).  Some elements of Western Sudan demanded some consessions and the government tried to supress them militarily.  This lead to conflict.

-Sudan was colonized by the West for 100 years, and like most African states, when the colonial power left, they left elements inside the country that would continue to decay at the peace and prosperity of the Nation.

***************

If you have any more questions or comments I can speak more on the topic here, I was only able to touch on a few key points, but this conflict has a deep history, and is very complex.

[Woodrow]

I stopped posting in here, but I'm gonna make an exception to come here and fuck your whole world up.

It's funny to see you try and legitimize Jihad and the actions that are going on in the Sudan. It shows your complete lack of intelligence, common sense, and reason. You're no better than a fucking talking head. How does it feel not to think for yourself? Does it feel good to have somebody else think for you? You're a weak individual.

meaning that the Jan Jaweed, perform their raids, hide out amongst the people, then reappear, do more dirt, hide out again, and on and on.  They have been around for a long time, but they are very hard to identify, they are not an organized group with an organized leader, but rather a mysterious group of bandits who's way of life is dependant on raiding farms and villages.

So this makes it OK not to do something about the problem? The Arab backed government IS the problem. They are the ones who armed the janjaweed. LOADS of the janjaweed fighters are also members of the official Sudanese army. The Sudanese government gave official military uniforms to janjaweed fighters so they would be able to avoid scrutiny. The janjaweed and the Sudanese air force worked together to destroy whole towns.

It just shows your ignorance regarding this issue when you say that there isn't an organized leader. Musa Hilal isn't a leader of the Janjaweed? The US didn't issue a list of the 30 most wanted janjaweed leaders? Boy, I guess your sheik knows more than the United States AND the United Nations!

There is NO ETHNIC CLEANSING[/i].  Last night the Shiek had his son get up and stand next to him.  Both of them are very dark skinned, but his son has a long looking nose that is an Arab feature, the Shiek explained that he would be classified as an African and his son would be classified as an Arab. That really, almost all of Sudan is very black and African, (except for a few select Arab tribes) although some of it's people may have Arab features.  The Sudanese government for example, is very black, and to any of us we would identify them as black African.

No ethnic cleansing? Are you kidding me? Have you done ANY research on this issue or are you just spouting off what the “Sheik” told you? It’s COMMON Knowledge that there is ethnic cleansing going on in the Sudan. The entire world community acknowledges that. One man says different and you take all the evidence to the contrary and agree with him? Do you see how ignorant that is? The sheik that spoke is a bald faced liar. It’s obvious that he’s trying to play on peoples ignorance of the situation to garner support for the Jihad in the Sudan.  It’s also funny that you say “A few select Arab tribes” when in reality, 40% of the country’s population is “Arab.” Your ignorance continues.

-The government really doesn't have much involvement in the problem.  They are not totally innocent, but they are definitely not totally responsible.  Some people of the Jan Jaweed joined military wings of the government, just to obtain weapons to pursue their own vigilante objectives.

Once again, this is a complete and utter lie. Why would you take the word of this “Sheik” over the ENORMOUS amount of evidence that proves him wrong?

-The government has absolutely zero involvement in any of the reported "raping" that has taken place in Sudan.  It is possible that some ignorant individual amongst the Jan Jaweed may raped a women during their raids, but rape is something in the Sudan that is punishable by death of stoning, and it is something that is HATED[/i] and NEVER[/i] happens in the Sudan.

So you just said that the janjaweed joined the government army, but now the government doesn’t have any involvement in the raping and killing going on? Now you are contradicting your OWN words. It’s obvious to anybody with half a brain that you’re talking out of your ass.

-The severity of the conflict has been severely miscalculated.  The number killed is less than half that of the reported number.  The number of refugee's is also much smaller than is being reported.  Many of the refugee's live and eat better on the food they are recieving at refugee camps, then the standard of living they had in their villages back home, this has motivated some of them to exzagerate the conflict and leave their homes for refugee camps.

So if the numbers are wrong, that makes everything that’s going on ok? I like how you try and justify that the refugees are better of living on the borders. That’s more of your bankrupt logic.  This kid looks like he’s having a GREAT time in the refugee camp. Even if the numbers are cut in half, 500,000 people are displaced, and 15 to 30 thousand people killed since the conflict started last year.

-It is not a situation where the North is Muslim and the South is Christian.  Only a small percentage of the South is Christian and despite many efforts made by the West to Christianize the South, the number of Christians is dwendling.

2 million Christians is a “Small percentage”??? Come on. It’s obvious by your comments above what your true motivation for this post was. You’re trying to justify Jihad and Dhimmitude in the Sudan. You’re trying to support the spread of Islam through violent means. You disgust me with your ignorance. One more question. What about all the local tribes who aren’t “protected” under Sharia? It’s obvious by your comments above what your true motivation for this post was. You’re trying to justify Jihad and Dhimmitude in the Sudan. You’re trying to support the spread of Islam through violent means. You disgust me with your ignorance. One more question. What about all the local tribes who aren’t “protected” under Sharia?


I hope your dreams are haunted by the cries of thousands of African babies, murdered in the name of Jihad.

For anybody who wants to do some REAL research on the subject rather than ignore facts, should check out these sites.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/su.html
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040830fa_fact1
http://www.mideasti.org/countries/countries.php?name=sudan
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L02610633.htm
http://www.fact-index.com/d/di/discrimination_against_non_muslims_in_sudan.html

[white Boy]

I stopped posting in here

why?

[Thirteen]

probably because he realizes it's pointless and a waste of time like i did

this section should be called "train of opinions" because hardly any thought goes on around here. once you read the title on the thread, people already have their minds made up of what they are going to say...for example, if it's something good america has done, people will bring up slavery. if it's a terrorist bombing, it's not the terrorist's fault and so on

[tommyilromano]

Nicely done.. He is full of shit but I think everyone knows that.

I stopped posting in here, but I'm gonna make an exception to come here and fuck your whole world up.

It's funny to see you try and legitimize Jihad and the actions that are going on in the Sudan. It shows your complete lack of intelligence, common sense, and reason. You're no better than a fucking talking head. How does it feel not to think for yourself? Does it feel good to have somebody else think for you? You're a weak individual.

meaning that the Jan Jaweed, perform their raids, hide out amongst the people, then reappear, do more dirt, hide out again, and on and on.  They have been around for a long time, but they are very hard to identify, they are not an organized group with an organized leader, but rather a mysterious group of bandits who's way of life is dependant on raiding farms and villages.

So this makes it OK not to do something about the problem? The Arab backed government IS the problem. They are the ones who armed the janjaweed. LOADS of the janjaweed fighters are also members of the official Sudanese army. The Sudanese government gave official military uniforms to janjaweed fighters so they would be able to avoid scrutiny. The janjaweed and the Sudanese air force worked together to destroy whole towns.

It just shows your ignorance regarding this issue when you say that there isn't an organized leader. Musa Hilal isn't a leader of the Janjaweed? The US didn't issue a list of the 30 most wanted janjaweed leaders? Boy, I guess your sheik knows more than the United States AND the United Nations!

There is NO ETHNIC CLEANSING[/i].  Last night the Shiek had his son get up and stand next to him.  Both of them are very dark skinned, but his son has a long looking nose that is an Arab feature, the Shiek explained that he would be classified as an African and his son would be classified as an Arab. That really, almost all of Sudan is very black and African, (except for a few select Arab tribes) although some of it's people may have Arab features.  The Sudanese government for example, is very black, and to any of us we would identify them as black African.

No ethnic cleansing? Are you kidding me? Have you done ANY research on this issue or are you just spouting off what the “Sheik” told you? It’s COMMON Knowledge that there is ethnic cleansing going on in the Sudan. The entire world community acknowledges that. One man says different and you take all the evidence to the contrary and agree with him? Do you see how ignorant that is? The sheik that spoke is a bald faced liar. It’s obvious that he’s trying to play on peoples ignorance of the situation to garner support for the Jihad in the Sudan.  It’s also funny that you say “A few select Arab tribes” when in reality, 40% of the country’s population is “Arab.” Your ignorance continues.

-The government really doesn't have much involvement in the problem.  They are not totally innocent, but they are definitely not totally responsible.  Some people of the Jan Jaweed joined military wings of the government, just to obtain weapons to pursue their own vigilante objectives.

Once again, this is a complete and utter lie. Why would you take the word of this “Sheik” over the ENORMOUS amount of evidence that proves him wrong?

-The government has absolutely zero involvement in any of the reported "raping" that has taken place in Sudan.  It is possible that some ignorant individual amongst the Jan Jaweed may raped a women during their raids, but rape is something in the Sudan that is punishable by death of stoning, and it is something that is HATED[/i] and NEVER[/i] happens in the Sudan.

So you just said that the janjaweed joined the government army, but now the government doesn’t have any involvement in the raping and killing going on? Now you are contradicting your OWN words. It’s obvious to anybody with half a brain that you’re talking out of your ass.

-The severity of the conflict has been severely miscalculated.  The number killed is less than half that of the reported number.  The number of refugee's is also much smaller than is being reported.  Many of the refugee's live and eat better on the food they are recieving at refugee camps, then the standard of living they had in their villages back home, this has motivated some of them to exzagerate the conflict and leave their homes for refugee camps.

So if the numbers are wrong, that makes everything that’s going on ok? I like how you try and justify that the refugees are better of living on the borders. That’s more of your bankrupt logic.  This kid looks like he’s having a GREAT time in the refugee camp. Even if the numbers are cut in half, 500,000 people are displaced, and 15 to 30 thousand people killed since the conflict started last year.

-It is not a situation where the North is Muslim and the South is Christian.  Only a small percentage of the South is Christian and despite many efforts made by the West to Christianize the South, the number of Christians is dwendling.

2 2 million Christians is a “Small percentage”??? Come on. It’s obvious by your comments above what your true motivation for this post was. You’re trying to justify Jihad and Dhimmitude in the Sudan. You’re trying to support the spread of Islam through violent means. You disgust me with your ignorance. One more question. What about all the local tribes who aren’t “protected” under Sharia? It’s obvious by your comments above what your true motivation for this post was. You’re trying to justify Jihad and Dhimmitude in the Sudan. You’re trying to support the spread of Islam through violent means. You disgust me with your ignorance. One more question. What about all the local tribes who aren’t “protected” under Sharia?


I hope your dreams are haunted by the cries of thousands of African babies, murdered in the name of Jihad.

For anybody who wants to do some REAL research on the subject rather than ignore facts, should check out these sites.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/su.html
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040830fa_fact1
http://www.mideasti.org/countries/countries.php?name=sudan
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L02610633.htm
http://www.fact-index.com/d/di/discrimination_against_non_muslims_in_sudan.html

[Don Rizzle]

come on you critise the west for nearly everything they do but when an arab government is in the wrong you try and justify them which proves you are brainwashed by your religion. the reason the black africans started to rebel was because the the arab governement neglected the african regions so they bombed them and unleashed the janjaweed who are still driving black africans from their homes murdering mem and raping women and burning villages and there are plenty of refugees to varify it and new report from new refugees proves its still going on. sadaneese governemnt recently said it was gonna send a load of police to dalfaur but what it didn't mention is many of those police will be janjaweed. the government is banking on the international community not acting to strengthen their position for as long as possible. i think the african union should put troops in dalfaur to keep the peace but sudan wants to avoid  this at all costs, and they havn't even met the requirements of the last sicurity council resolution which they agreed to. i hiope sanctions are placed next week to make them act.

[infinite59]

Did you guys read anything I said?  THE GOVERNMENT IN SUDAN IS EVEN DARKER THAN AFRICAN AMERICAN'S!  THEY ARE NOT ARAB![/i]  This is the biggest lie of all that this is an ethnic cleansing of Arabs against Africans. 

[Woodrow]

Did you guys read anything I said?  THE GOVERNMENT IN SUDAN IS EVEN DARKER THAN AFRICAN AMERICAN'S!  THEY ARE NOT ARAB![/i]  This is the biggest lie of all that this is an ethnic cleansing of Arabs against Africans. 

I read everything you said. IT WAS ALL WRONG![/i]

The Sheik that spoke was a bald faced liar.

[infinite59]

Did you guys read anything I said?  THE GOVERNMENT IN SUDAN IS EVEN DARKER THAN AFRICAN AMERICAN'S!  THEY ARE NOT ARAB![/i]  This is the biggest lie of all that this is an ethnic cleansing of Arabs against Africans. 

I read everything you said. IT WAS ALL WRONG![/i]

The Sheik that spoke was a bald faced liar.

Go look at some pictures of members of the Sudanese government.  Then go look at some pictures of the Saudi government.  Then get back to me.  Some people don't even know what an Arab is.  And Britian and America fuel this misunderstanding, they will falsely label black African's as Arab just because of they have a long nose, or an Arab feature, or for no reason other than to divide people. 

[Woodrow]

And Britian and America fuel this misunderstanding, they will falsely label black African's as Arab just because of they have a long nose, or an Arab feature, or for no reason other than to divide people. 

God you just keep getting more and more out there. It's not the Jihads fault, It's America!!!!!! Blame America.

Your "debate" tactics won't work on me. I've taken your whole "arguemnt" apart point by point. You really need to just unplug your internet connection.

Fur = African = Southerns
Nomad = Arabs = Northerns

"If you look at pictures from the war as an American, you'd say everybody in them is black. But Africans are as racist as anybody else, even against themselves - and to the Northern Sudanese who run the country, the southerners are black, primitive losers. They even have their own version of the N-word: "zurug," "black."

Did you know that the northerners get a whole huge amount of help from those Wahabbi fucks in saudi arabia?

[Woodrow]

Don't even post in here Tech. I can sense you thinking about it.

[King Tech Quadafi]

1. the sudanese govt helps, arms and suppots the janjaweed, however they are not direct extentions of the state.

2. govt supports the janjaweed against anti govt rebels aided by chad

3. war is also divided along tribal, economic lines, and ethnic lines s well.

4. both sides are muslims, so this is not a' ''jihad''.

5. it is within thiscontext, that janjaweed attacks on civilians occur.

it is not as simple as bloodthirsty arabs massacring africans for the sake of it.

[King Tech Quadafi]

just to clarify because i can sense englewood whining, that there HAS been occuring janjaweed attacks on civilians, and the situation in all of sudan is depressing not just darfur.

just remember this wanton killing is occuring within the midst of a complicated and messy war.

Tech doesnt wanna hear any jihad, foreign intervention, islam is evil bullshit

[King Tech Quadafi]

Don't even post in here Tech. I can sense you thinking about it.

 

[Woodrow]

1. the sudanese govt helps, arms and suppots the janjaweed, however they are not direct extentions of the state.

So when the Government supplies arms, thats not an extention of the state? When the government uses it's air power to soften up targerts, then has the janjaweed come in and clean up, thats not an extention of the state? Wow. I wonder if your change of heart will translate for the United States actions in South America? Somehow I think not.

2. govt supports the janjaweed against anti govt rebels aided by chad

Yes.

3. war is also divided along tribal, economic lines, and ethnic lines s well.

Yes.

4. both sides are muslims, so this is not a' ''jihad''.

This is flat out false. You obviously need to do some more reading on the subject.

it is not as simple as bloodthirsty arabs massacring africans for the sake of it.

No, it's a land grab and a Jihad.