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Quote from: I TO DA GEEZY on November 18, 2004, 09:29:55 AMQuote from: Don Rizzle on November 15, 2004, 03:23:54 PMthey been there hundreds of years thats proof enough its their enough for me. you know you sound very imperialistic there were no "they", don't u get it, Their national identity is one big hoax, U can't take some dweller from 300 years ago that was passing through this region and base their right to inherit this land on him.....Jews lived in many places around the world for hundreds of years while leadership changed and revolutions erupted, still they never were considered to be the owners of the Land, even despite the fact they had very strong national characteristics that defined them and distinguished them from the rest. The Palestinians did not even exist close to 150 years ago...I'm going to have to say that this is complete bullshit. Palestinians didn't even exist close to 150 years ago? Israel didn't exist 60 years ago.
Quote from: Don Rizzle on November 15, 2004, 03:23:54 PMthey been there hundreds of years thats proof enough its their enough for me. you know you sound very imperialistic there were no "they", don't u get it, Their national identity is one big hoax, U can't take some dweller from 300 years ago that was passing through this region and base their right to inherit this land on him.....Jews lived in many places around the world for hundreds of years while leadership changed and revolutions erupted, still they never were considered to be the owners of the Land, even despite the fact they had very strong national characteristics that defined them and distinguished them from the rest. The Palestinians did not even exist close to 150 years ago...
they been there hundreds of years thats proof enough its their enough for me. you know you sound very imperialistic
Jews in Palestine only made up a very small percentage of the population during the 19th century and early 20th century. American & Zionist interests forced European Jews to seek refuge in Palestine in order to boost the population. Zionists didn't want Jewish refugees to come to America, even though the U.S. Department of Labor announced that it could easily absorb 400,000 new immigrants. By 1947, this flood of Jewish settlers still only composed 30% of Palestine's population, and owned only 6% of the land. The UN plan was to grant Jews 55% of the land (when they only make up 30% of the population), and on top of that, the number of Palestinian Arabs who lived in the area designated to become the Jewish state was about 400,000 (almost as large as the number of Jews in that area).Israeli fighters had the goal of forcing Palestinians off the land, to clear it of Arab residents in order to consolidate a Jewish presence. They managed to steal about 70% of Mandate Palestine, and forced 750,000 Palestinians into exile. Israel claimed that Palestinians fled because their leaders told them to. However, by the 1980s, with documentation in Western countries, as well as Israel, the historians of Israel were able to tell the truth. Benny Morris, an Israeli historian, stated that the refuge problem was caused by attacks by Jewish forces on Arab villages and towns, and by the inhabitants' fear of such attacks, expulsions, atrocities, and the Israeli Cabinet decision in 1948 to bar a refugee return. So, don't come with that whole "a land with no people, for a people with no land" bullshit ideology... how can one claim it's a "land with no people", when there are hundreds of thousands of inhabitants, making up 70-95% of the total population (depending on what year you're looking at)
Quote from: Don Rizzle on May 10, 2006, 03:16:12 AMiraq would just get annexed by iranThat would be a great solution. If Iran and the majority of Iraqi's are pleased with it, then why shouldn't they do it?
iraq would just get annexed by iran
First of all, you can't go around calling it the "historical Jewish homeland" and their return to it.
First of all, you can't go around calling it the "historical Jewish homeland" and their return to it. One reason is because no matter how far you go back in history, there was always someone there "before". The ancient Hebrews settled there after the Philistines (ancestors of Palestinians). Palestinians never left that land. They've always been there. Secondly, as previously stated, before the Zionist movement, the Jewish population in that area was less than 10%. Those European Jews never lived on that land, nor did their ancestors. A majority of European Jews are descendants of the Khazzar tribe, which converted to Judaism in the 8th century. It really makes no sense to go back thousands of years in history to try and proclaim who was there first, but even if you did, it is evident that Hebrews arrived there to find the Philistines. You ask why Palestinians never proclaimed a national identity... you have to remember they were under Ottoman control for about 400 years. World War I changed that... Britain and France began negotiations with Arab leaders, promising them independence if they helped over throw the Ottomans. At the same time, Britain and France also made their own little secret negotiations with the Sykes-Picot Agreement dividing the Arab world between themselves. Then Britain took a third contradictory position by announcing the Balfour Declaration, promising Zionists a Jewish home. Obviously, all promises could not be met. The British weren't willing to give Palestinians an independent state because they knew that large scale Jewish immigration sponsored by European/American zionists would be brought to a stop.By the end of the war, the U.S. was controlling about 40% of Middle Eastern oil, and they were desperate for a "stable" ally, so they turned to the backing of the creation of a Jewish state which would be dependent on America and subservient to meet all its needs and carry out the dirty work. The Palestinian population was completely ignored. You heard of Chaplain Klausner? He was the Zionist organizer, and admitted that most of the Jewish refugees wanted to come to America, but they were only offered refuge if they went to Palestine. His exact statement was: "I am convinced that the people were forced to go to Palestine." Then, anyone that challenged Zionism was quickly labeled anti-Semitic, but do you see the irony in that? The U.S. would not allow Jews to come here, yet uses the concept of anti-Semitism for its own diplomatic/economic gain. The U.S. pressured Britain to lift all restrictions on Jewish immigration to Palestine. Zionist militias blew up eight roads and bridges in Palestine in 1946 when the British tried to bargain with them about the immigration quotas. Then a few months later, Irgun (Zionist militia) blew up the British government's wing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem... killing 80 people, Arab, Jewish and British. Clashes erupted across the land and in 1947 Britain turned the problem over to the newly created UN. The U.S. was the most powerful member of the organization; there were only 55 member states, and most of those depended on U.S. aid to rebuild their war shattered countries/economies. For example, the Philippines voted against the partition and creation of a Jewish state. Guess what happened to the diplomat who spoke out in the General Assembly? He was recalled. The same thing happened to the delegate from Siam (Thailand). Arabs and Jews continued fighting and in 1948 Israel just declared its independence. With the U.S. recognition of that theft of land, there was nothing anyone could do about it.Could you imagine Assyrians rising up and wanting half of Iraq's land as their own nation?By the way, if you know anything about the President Wilson (League of Nations/14 Points), you'd know about something called "Self-Determination".
So, what if they were under Ottoman control for about 400 years so were the rest of the Arabs of the erea? (Jews were exiled for 2000 years yet they were the ones to start fighting for this Land), Leaders of Arab nations did gain land due to those Negotiations: Jordan, Egypt, Syria....Where were the Palestinians? why didn't they gain Land like the rest of the Arab parties? I'll tell you why, Because they had no Identity, They were refugees way before Israel proclaimed it's formal independence, They had no leadership since they weren't a singular mass...They proclaimed their national identity only to Claim their piece of the pie.I forgot to coment on Chaplain Clausner, With the amount of Jews that fleed to USA after the WW2 I would say his convictions were hystoriclly incorect.
You ask why Palestinians never proclaimed a national identity... you have to remember they were under Ottoman control for about 400 years. World War I changed that... Britain and France began negotiations with Arab leaders, promising them independence if they helped over throw the Ottomans. At the same time, Britain and France also made their own little secret negotiations with the Sykes-Picot Agreement dividing the Arab world between themselves. Then Britain took a third contradictory position by announcing the Balfour Declaration, promising Zionists a Jewish home. Obviously, all promises could not be met. The British weren't willing to give Palestinians an independent state because they knew that large scale Jewish immigration sponsored by European/American zionists would be brought to a stop.
-The historic Philistines were a people that inhabited the southern coast of Canaan around the time of the arrival of the Israelites.-Philistia the name of the Philistine Kingdoms became "Palestine" under the RomansThis is out of an encyclopedia... I'm assuming that it's biased in your opinion...
Quote from: I TO DA GEEZY on November 19, 2004, 06:27:15 AMSo, what if they were under Ottoman control for about 400 years so were the rest of the Arabs of the erea? (Jews were exiled for 2000 years yet they were the ones to start fighting for this Land), Leaders of Arab nations did gain land due to those Negotiations: Jordan, Egypt, Syria....Where were the Palestinians? why didn't they gain Land like the rest of the Arab parties? I'll tell you why, Because they had no Identity, They were refugees way before Israel proclaimed it's formal independence, They had no leadership since they weren't a singular mass...They proclaimed their national identity only to Claim their piece of the pie.I forgot to coment on Chaplain Clausner, With the amount of Jews that fleed to USA after the WW2 I would say his convictions were hystoriclly incorect.I already answered that in my post:Quote from: *Jamal* on November 19, 2004, 05:05:45 AMYou ask why Palestinians never proclaimed a national identity... you have to remember they were under Ottoman control for about 400 years. World War I changed that... Britain and France began negotiations with Arab leaders, promising them independence if they helped over throw the Ottomans. At the same time, Britain and France also made their own little secret negotiations with the Sykes-Picot Agreement dividing the Arab world between themselves. Then Britain took a third contradictory position by announcing the Balfour Declaration, promising Zionists a Jewish home. Obviously, all promises could not be met. The British weren't willing to give Palestinians an independent state because they knew that large scale Jewish immigration sponsored by European/American zionists would be brought to a stop.By the way, I didn't get any of my information from any website at all. I read books.In addition, if you don't hold the statements made by an ISRAELI HISTORIAN credible, and feel that you know more about the situation than he does, then what do you consider a credible source? The Israeli government's website?
p.s So suddenly The Birts didn't want the Jewish imigration to stop? The Jewish Irguns terrorised the Brits, They had no interest in granting Jews with a state...At least the Palestinians didn't fight them.
Yes, Jews did come to the U.S.He didn't say that no Jews came here; he stated that at the time, in Europe, a large number of Jews were only offered refuge if they went to Palestine.,By the way, Klausner was a ZIONIST ORGANIZER, and this is what he told the American Jewish Congress.Benny Morris, the ISRAELI HISTORIAN, is the one who said that the refuge problem was caused by attacks by Jewish forces on Arab villages. (contradictory to the bullshit the Israeli government made up decades before saying that the Arab leaders told the people to flee).LOL, seriously, look at the sources in capital letters.... if you consider that "bias" then there's no point in arguing with you because God forbid I use an Arab/Palestinian source... we'd have PROPAGANDA typed all over the thread...