Lifestyle > Train of Thought
Arafat Has Passed Away
I TO DA GEEZY:
--- Quote from: *Jamal* on November 18, 2004, 09:54:47 AM ---
--- Quote from: I TO DA GEEZY on November 18, 2004, 09:29:55 AM ---
--- Quote from: Don Rizzle on November 15, 2004, 03:23:54 PM ---they been there hundreds of years thats proof enough its their enough for me. you know you sound very imperialistic
--- End quote ---
there were no "they", don't u get it, Their national identity is one big hoax, U can't take some dweller from 300 years ago that was passing through this region and base their right to inherit this land on him.....Jews lived in many places around the world for hundreds of years while leadership changed and revolutions erupted, still they never were considered to be the owners of the Land, even despite the fact they had very strong national characteristics that defined them and distinguished them from the rest. The Palestinians did not even exist close to 150 years ago...
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I'm going to have to say that this is complete bullshit. Palestinians didn't even exist close to 150 years ago? Israel didn't exist 60 years ago.
--- End quote ---
what defines The Palestinians as a nation is the Palestinian Declaration, The point is they proclaimed themselves as a nation to base their right to take over this Land (Since it's widely excepted that every nation should have a national Home), Israel is a country, and the isue is not How long it exsited, Jews on the other hand Existed for a couple of thousands years at least(as a nation, they weren't made up for the occasion).
*Jamal*:
Jews in Palestine only made up a very small percentage of the population during the 19th century and early 20th century. American & Zionist interests forced European Jews to seek refuge in Palestine in order to boost the population. Zionists didn't want Jewish refugees to come to America, even though the U.S. Department of Labor announced that it could easily absorb 400,000 new immigrants. By 1947, this flood of Jewish settlers still only composed 30% of Palestine's population, and owned only 6% of the land. The UN plan was to grant Jews 55% of the land (when they only make up 30% of the population), and on top of that, the number of Palestinian Arabs who lived in the area designated to become the Jewish state was about 400,000 (almost as large as the number of Jews in that area).
Israeli fighters had the goal of forcing Palestinians off the land, to clear it of Arab residents in order to consolidate a Jewish presence. They managed to steal about 70% of Mandate Palestine, and forced 750,000 Palestinians into exile. Israel claimed that Palestinians fled because their leaders told them to. However, by the 1980s, with documentation in Western countries, as well as Israel, the historians of Israel were able to tell the truth. Benny Morris, an Israeli historian, stated that the refuge problem was caused by attacks by Jewish forces on Arab villages and towns, and by the inhabitants' fear of such attacks, expulsions, atrocities, and the Israeli Cabinet decision in 1948 to bar a refugee return.
So, don't come with that whole "a land with no people, for a people with no land" bullshit ideology... how can one claim it's a "land with no people", when there are hundreds of thousands of inhabitants, making up 70-95% of the total population (depending on what year you're looking at)
I TO DA GEEZY:
--- Quote from: *Jamal* on November 19, 2004, 02:03:59 AM ---Jews in Palestine only made up a very small percentage of the population during the 19th century and early 20th century. American & Zionist interests forced European Jews to seek refuge in Palestine in order to boost the population. Zionists didn't want Jewish refugees to come to America, even though the U.S. Department of Labor announced that it could easily absorb 400,000 new immigrants. By 1947, this flood of Jewish settlers still only composed 30% of Palestine's population, and owned only 6% of the land. The UN plan was to grant Jews 55% of the land (when they only make up 30% of the population), and on top of that, the number of Palestinian Arabs who lived in the area designated to become the Jewish state was about 400,000 (almost as large as the number of Jews in that area).
Israeli fighters had the goal of forcing Palestinians off the land, to clear it of Arab residents in order to consolidate a Jewish presence. They managed to steal about 70% of Mandate Palestine, and forced 750,000 Palestinians into exile. Israel claimed that Palestinians fled because their leaders told them to. However, by the 1980s, with documentation in Western countries, as well as Israel, the historians of Israel were able to tell the truth. Benny Morris, an Israeli historian, stated that the refuge problem was caused by attacks by Jewish forces on Arab villages and towns, and by the inhabitants' fear of such attacks, expulsions, atrocities, and the Israeli Cabinet decision in 1948 to bar a refugee return.
So, don't come with that whole "a land with no people, for a people with no land" bullshit ideology... how can one claim it's a "land with no people", when there are hundreds of thousands of inhabitants, making up 70-95% of the total population (depending on what year you're looking at)
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The mistake is to precieve the entire mass of inhabitants as a single "nation", Before Jews started to return to their hystorical Homeland these "tribes" had diffrend interests and goals, at many times they were Hostile towards one another, They proclaimed a single national identity for themselves only to claim the Land for themselves(Why didn't they try to Claim it during the British Mandate if they wanted it so badly??) They were intimidated by this relatively small percentage of Jews that started to reapear in the Region, what were they fearing(considering the figures you yourself just presented)? and considering the entire territory was under British control for some time, Hagana and Lehi(the Zionistic Fighters) wanted to removed the Brits first and for all. The Radical right Wing of those days(to which these organizations blonged) wanted to create a Bi-National State with the Locals, not to squash them, Problem was the Locals were unwilling and more often Hostile.
*Jamal*:
First of all, you can't go around calling it the "historical Jewish homeland" and their return to it. One reason is because no matter how far you go back in history, there was always someone there "before". The ancient Hebrews settled there after the Philistines (ancestors of Palestinians). Palestinians never left that land. They've always been there. Secondly, as previously stated, before the Zionist movement, the Jewish population in that area was less than 10%. Those European Jews never lived on that land, nor did their ancestors. A majority of European Jews are descendants of the Khazzar tribe, which converted to Judaism in the 8th century. It really makes no sense to go back thousands of years in history to try and proclaim who was there first, but even if you did, it is evident that Hebrews arrived there to find the Philistines.
You ask why Palestinians never proclaimed a national identity... you have to remember they were under Ottoman control for about 400 years. World War I changed that... Britain and France began negotiations with Arab leaders, promising them independence if they helped over throw the Ottomans. At the same time, Britain and France also made their own little secret negotiations with the Sykes-Picot Agreement dividing the Arab world between themselves. Then Britain took a third contradictory position by announcing the Balfour Declaration, promising Zionists a Jewish home. Obviously, all promises could not be met. The British weren't willing to give Palestinians an independent state because they knew that large scale Jewish immigration sponsored by European/American zionists would be brought to a stop.
By the end of the war, the U.S. was controlling about 40% of Middle Eastern oil, and they were desperate for a "stable" ally, so they turned to the backing of the creation of a Jewish state which would be dependent on America and subservient to meet all its needs and carry out the dirty work. The Palestinian population was completely ignored.
You heard of Chaplain Klausner? He was the Zionist organizer, and admitted that most of the Jewish refugees wanted to come to America, but they were only offered refuge if they went to Palestine. His exact statement was: "I am convinced that the people were forced to go to Palestine." Then, anyone that challenged Zionism was quickly labeled anti-Semitic, but do you see the irony in that? The U.S. would not allow Jews to come here, yet uses the concept of anti-Semitism for its own diplomatic/economic gain. The U.S. pressured Britain to lift all restrictions on Jewish immigration to Palestine. Zionist militias blew up eight roads and bridges in Palestine in 1946 when the British tried to bargain with them about the immigration quotas. Then a few months later, Irgun (Zionist militia) blew up the British government's wing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem... killing 80 people, Arab, Jewish and British. Clashes erupted across the land and in 1947 Britain turned the problem over to the newly created UN. The U.S. was the most powerful member of the organization; there were only 55 member states, and most of those depended on U.S. aid to rebuild their war shattered countries/economies. For example, the Philippines voted against the partition and creation of a Jewish state. Guess what happened to the diplomat who spoke out in the General Assembly? He was recalled. The same thing happened to the delegate from Siam (Thailand).
Arabs and Jews continued fighting and in 1948 Israel just declared its independence. With the U.S. recognition of that theft of land, there was nothing anyone could do about it.
Could you imagine Assyrians rising up and wanting half of Iraq's land as their own nation?
By the way, if you know anything about the President Wilson (League of Nations/14 Points), you'd know about something called "Self-Determination".
Don Rizzle:
i'd like to see how i geezy responds to that
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