Lifestyle > Train of Thought
us marine kills wounded, unarmed man in a mosque in al-falluja
BuddenzNasir:
Makavelli thats like saying Americans shouldnt get caught for the things they do wrong!.....ummm u guys mess up so much its gonna get caught once in a while, no wonder americans are the most hated as it is. and really Ur winning the war but ur still fighting these little iraqi rebels and its not even close to an end. its still kinda sad in my eyes.
Fathom:
I would have shot that man too. Insurgents had been faking death in mosques and then blowing themselves up. The marine that had shot that man had been injured a few hours earlier by one of those insurgents.
Ant:
--- Quote from: Dangerfield on November 17, 2004, 12:27:40 PM ---
--- Quote from: Dosia on November 17, 2004, 11:19:48 AM ---^ so how do you explain us going into their country and blowing up inncoent civilians. is your excuse "Whoops, the bomb didnt hit the right target!" From what ive read we have killed over 100,000 innocent. they (as in terrorists not innocent) killed what 3500 of us during the attack on the towers? I by no means support terrorism but i think this "war in iraq" is bullshit.
--- End quote ---
it is bullshit but since it's happening, we might as well try to get some good done, those insurgents are destroying everything and anything they want to....i know they want america to look bad and get out but they are the leading cause of the 100,000 civilian deaths. after the war was declared over, that should have ended the majority of the violence, there would be no more need for large US forces, bombing runs and all that, we would have just rebuilt and got out... now not only are they killing their people, they're causing us to kill their people and the US is going to do the same thing they planned on doing
--- End quote ---
The insurgency exists for a number of reasons, not all are America's fault, but some are. Its not just a bunch of people who are there to fuck up there country. The initial formation of the Al Sadr insurgency was the result of a US decision to close down a newspaper that was printing negative stories about the U.S. Al Sadr, saw this as a form of oppression, and denial of freedom of speech, and formed a militia that really was the start of a majory insurgency. Before that decision the insurgency was relatively small. After losing his voice when his newspaper was closed down, the insurgency was formed.
Now there is another major reason for the Iraqi insurgency, and that is Halliburton. Basically, when we went in and blew up all the buildings, we gave Halliburton contracts to rebuild Iraq. This angered a lot of iraqis who say an American firm profiting from the destruction of their country, while they were out of work. I supported the war initially saying that if GWB truly liberated iraq, and proved to the muslim world we were there 1) to fight terrorism 2) to spread prosperity then even if there were no WMD the was in iraq would not have been such a bad thing. Obviously now, this is not the case. We neither found WMD, nor proved to the Muslim world that the US was truly intending to spread prosperity. Instead we made them believe exactly the opposite. In many ways we confirmed there worst fears: that the US is an imperialistic power that came to Iraq looking for profits and power. Now it is still debatable whether this is entirely true, but when your dealing with a group of people who are already skeptical of your actions, and you get caught running a tortute prison, then you give away all the reconstruction profits to American firms, and you install, what many iraqis see, as a puppet government you tend to rub them the wrong way.
So, Halliburton played a large part in inciting the insurgency. The iraqis saw foreign workers and foreign corporations profiting from the destruction of their cities, and it confirmed their belief that the US was not here to liberate, and spread prosperity, but instead to occupy and steal from their nation.
So yeah, there are probably other reasons for the insurgency, for example some of these people just want power, or just hate the US. That may be the reason why some of the insurgent leaders are fighting, but the insurgent leaders need followers, and their followers exist due to the reasons explained above.
Thirteen:
i know what you're saying ant and i agree with the freedom of speech one but honestly, do you think that since an american company got the contract to rebuild these people's home is the reason they are going out and killing their own people lining up for jobs?
just doesn't make sense
Ant:
well i see that as part of the reason why things are what they are. i'm sure some of what happens is just based on hate and anger, but i believe some iraqis see the people lining up for jobs as traitors.
you know initially, dick cheney said, halliburton recieved the contracts because they were best equipped for the job. When i first heard that, I actually thought it made sense, and in some ways it does. Halliburton, technically, is the probably more efficient at reconstruction than the iraqis would be themselves. But I ended up thinking it was a mistake to give Halliburton the job, because had we given contracts to iraqi firms for reconstruction it would have a) employed a lot of people b) given the iraqis the opportunity develop skill sets c) in some ways lower costs because reconstruction would not be disrupted as much if iraqi firms were doing the work.
i think when they see iraqis working with the americans they seem them as traitors because the majority of the work is being done by american firms, and if work is being done by an iraqi he isn't the business owner, he is just an employee most likely of an american firm. they see the same thing with the iraqi police and iraqi military. they are paid to fight other iraqis, many people see them as traitors, because to a lot of people the reason for the resistance makes sense. to the avg. iraqi right now, we look like imperialists. we tortured people, we killed civilians, we gave all the reconstruction money to us firms, etc. regardless of our intentions, sometimes perceptions are reality and they percieve us as being assholes. so to the avg. iraqi, the insurgents dont seem as evil as they seem to us. the insurgents aren't killing civilians, they are killing foreigners and people they view as traitors.
overall, if the reconstruction for iraq was conducted by iraqis i think it would have greatly benefited iraqi interests and US interests. the avg. iraqi would be more upset with the insurgents, and less tolerant of them had we given them an opportunity to earn a decent wage, and helped them grow their economy. instead their economy has progressively declined for example take this latest bit of news:
"Since the March 2003 invasion, malnutrition among children between the ages of 6 months and 5 years has grown from 4 percent to 7.7 percent, said Jon Pedersen, deputy managing director of the Oslo, Norway-based Fafo Institute for Applied Social Science, which conducted the survey." -AP
I supported the iraq war, because i thought if we went in, found wmd, and brought prosperity to iraq, the muslim world would be less inclined to support terrorism. they would look up to the US, and believe we are a country with integrity and it would make the terrorists seem like assholes. Instead the decisions we made almost garaunteed we would not bring prosperity to iraq and in the end, we lost the support of the iraqi people, the international community, and we gave skeptical muslims a reason to believe their skepticism was not misguided.
.. sorry for the lengthy post, i have a tendency to be wordy, and im too lazy to edit.
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