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George W. Bush's Vision For a Democratic Middle East Is Coming True

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nibs:
Fathom
Ant, you should apologize.  It was a liberal who got us in to Vietnam in the first place, and a Republican who got us out.  If that war would have been fought the right way it could have been won, not saying that I agree with the Vietnam War.

eisenhower / nixon era republicans were not conservative by today's standards.  nixon signed off on epa regulations, osha, section 8 housing and welfare programs iirc.  most liberals would be doing back flips to have a guy like nixon in the white house today.  bob dole stated that richard nixon couldn't win the republican nomination now a days because he's too liberal.  don't smear the good name of richard m nixon by portraying him as a conservative republican of these times.

*Jamal*:

--- Quote from: nibs on March 03, 2005, 01:01:43 PM --- don't smear the good name of richard m nixon by portraying him as a conservative republican of these times.

--- End quote ---

LOL

Sikotic™:
Somebody watches too much Fox News.

nibs:
Siko-lic-no bitch azz niggaz, So when you see the B-D-O-double G, sleep creep low:
Somebody watches too much Fox News.

i don't know that the issue is that simple.

CWalker187:
A few weeks ago, a former prime minister of Lebanon was assasinated by Syria. Well, the people of Lebanon have apparently had enough because since then they have taken to the streets to protest the Syrian presence and have called for independence and freedom.

alot of people believe that the cia may have been behind that assassination, and that the cia is also behind these protests (organizationally) in order to garner public outrage against syria, and ultimately justify a u.s. military intervention.   george bush does not care about the lebanese people, they are pawns against syria.  just like the iraqi people were pawns against saddam.  the u.s. has been building a case for military action against syria for some time.  look at the syrian accountability act of 2003.  all of a sudden with this assassination the pressure and attention is suddenly on syria.  very convenient for the u.s.

local elections recently held in Saudi Arabia

saudi arabia has faced 0 pressure from this administration.  women are not allowed to vote or participate in these local elections.  there is no focus at all on this regime.  what does the state dept think of saudi arabia?

The Government's human rights record remained poor overall with continuing serious problems, despite some progress. Citizens did not have the right to change their government. Security forces continued to abuse detainees and prisoners, arbitrarily arrest, and hold persons in incommunicado detention. There were cases in which Mutawwa'in continued to intimidate, abuse, and detain citizens and foreigners. Most trials were closed, and defendants usually appeared before judges without legal counsel. Security forces arrested and detained reformers, some of whom continued at year's end to seek an open trial. The Government reportedly infringed on individuals' privacy rights. The Government continued to restrict freedoms of speech and press, assembly, association, religion, and movement. There was widespread public perception that corruption by some members of the royal family and in the executive branch of the Government was a serious problem. There was little government transparency, especially notable in official budgets, and with no laws providing the right to access government information. The Government continued to discriminate against women, ethnic and religious minorities and to impose strict limitations on worker rights.

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2004/41731.htm

i wouldn't brag on successes in saudi arabia.

Israel and the Palestinians finally working for peace

after the assassination (poisoning) of arafat.  remember these guys have been at the table and close to deals in the past.  clinton had them pretty close.  this is no huge triumph of bush's policies.  well, maybe assassinating arafat was a huge triumph but we don't know who was behind that.

Libya giving up its nuclear weapons program, etc..

what about korea kicking out the iaea and developing several nuclear warheads?  north korea was at the table and bush refused to talk.  many people feel he dropped the ball completely there.

When it is all said and done, the neoconservatives are going to be proven to be right

you may be on to something there.  but it isn't going to be the spread of democracy and freedom.  there is no pressure on jordan, saudia arabia, qatar, turkey...etc.  the u.s. only pressures regimes they don't like.  the u.s. may succeed in destabilizing the region, weakening all the major players...etc. but there is no legitimate push towards freedom and democracy and prosperity.  it was never about that.

just like when they doubted President Reagan and the arms build up that ultimately led to the end of the cold war.

ronald reagan was a failure that unnecessarily prolongued the cold war with fooling talk about evil empires and such.  the soviet union collapsed on it's own; but for decades they had longed for improved and productive relations with the u.s.; something started under the nixon administration.

ronald reagan is a joke.

As history shows us, liberals are always wrong when it comes to foreign policy. Iraq will be no different.)


this isn't a matter of right and wrong.  if the neo-cons succeed in iraq (and really they already have), the iraqi people will not be better off.  that would be a nice by-product, but was never the main agenda.

we've already looked at saudi arabia.  here's qatar:
Although there were some improvements in a few areas, serious problems remained. Citizens did not have the right to peacefully change their government. The Government continued to restrict the freedoms of speech and press. The Government placed some limits on the freedom of movement of women. In practice, tradition and custom limited women's rights. Some domestic servants, who are not covered under the new labor law, were mistreated and abused and worked under conditions that were tantamount to indentured servitude. Noncitizens, who make up more than 75 percent of local residents, sometimes faced discrimination in the workplace. Foreign laborers were disadvantaged in cases involving the performance of labor contracts. They did not receive the same allowance and salaries that were given to citizens in equivalent positions. Further, they were not allowed to leave the country or change employment without the permission of their current sponsor. Unskilled foreign workers continued to suffer from the lack of a minimum wage in the private sector. The country was also a destination for trafficked persons
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2004/41730.htm

jordan:
Although the Government respected human rights in some areas, its overall record continued to reflect many problems. Reported continuing abuses included police abuse and mistreatment of detainees, allegations of torture, arbitrary arrest and detention, lack of transparent investigations and of accountability within the security services resulting in a climate of impunity, denial of due process of law stemming from the expanded authority of the State Security Court and interference in the judicial process, infringements on citizens' privacy rights, harassment of members of opposition political parties, and significant restrictions on freedom of speech, press, assembly, and association. Citizens did not have the right to change their government. Citizens may participate in the political system through their elected representatives to Parliament; however, the King has discretionary authority to appoint and dismiss the Prime Minister, members of the cabinet and upper house of Parliament, to dissolve Parliament, and to establish public policy. The Government imposed some limits on freedom of religion, and there was official and societal discrimination against adherents of unrecognized religions. There were some restrictions on freedom of movement. Violence against women, restrictions on women's rights, and societal discrimination against women persisted. "Honor" crimes continued. Child abuse remained a problem, and discrimination against Palestinians persisted. Abuse of foreign domestics was a problem.
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2004/41724.htm

turkey:
The Government generally respected the human rights of its citizens; although there were significant improvements in a number of areas, serious problems remained. Security forces reportedly killed 18 persons during the year; torture, beatings, and other abuses by security forces remained widespread. Conditions in most prisons remained poor. Security forces continued to use arbitrary arrest and detention, although the number of such incidents declined. Lengthy trials remained a problem. Convictions of security officials accused of torture remained rare, and courts generally issued light sentences when they did convict. In politically sensitive cases, the judiciary continued to reflect a legal structure that favors State interests over individual rights. The State and Government continued to limit freedom of speech and press; harassment of journalists and others for controversial speech remained a serious problem. At times, the Government restricted freedom of assembly and association. Police beat, abused, detained, and harassed some demonstrators. The Government maintained some restrictions on religious minorities and on some forms of religious expression. At times, the Government restricted freedom of movement. The Government restricted the activities of some political parties and leaders, and sought to close the pro-Kurdish Democratic People's Party (DEHAP). The Government continued to harass, indict, and imprison human rights monitors, journalists, and lawyers for the views they expressed in public. Violence against women remained a serious problem, and discrimination against women persisted. Trafficking in persons, particularly women, remained a problem. Child labor was a widespread problem.
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2004/41713.htm

turkey is the only "democracy" there.   the u.s. claims of "freedom and democracy" are pure hypocrisy given the track records of their allies in the region.

israel also has numerous problems:
The Government generally respected the human rights of its citizens; however, there were problems in some areas. Some members of the security forces abused Palestinian detainees. Conditions in some detention and interrogation facilities remained poor. During the year, the Government detained on security grounds but without charge thousands of persons in Israel. (Most were from the occupied territories and their situation is covered in the annex.) The Government did little to reduce institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country's Arab citizens. The Government did not recognize marriages performed by non-Orthodox rabbis, compelling many citizens to travel abroad to marry. The Government interfered with individual privacy in some instances.
Discrimination and societal violence against women persisted, although the Government continued to address these problems. Trafficking in and abuse of women and foreign workers continued to be problems. Discrimination against persons with disabilities persisted

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2004/41723.htm

these reports are detailed.  this is the u.s. state dept reporting, and the u.s. own allies have horrific track records.  and there is no pressure on any of these states.

*Jamal*:

--- Quote from: nibs on March 03, 2005, 06:47:05 PM --- the u.s. own allies have horrific track records.  and there is no pressure on any of these states.

--- End quote ---

It's okay if they're puppets... as long as they do what we tell them, they can do whatever else they want.

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