Lifestyle > Train of Thought
Islam in America
J @ M @ L:
Since you can't/don't want to respond to my post, I guess we're just left with your "corrections".. so here we go...
"when I said non practicing Muslims in Indonesia I meant I read that you have to be part of a major religion tere, like it's a rule, I'm not sure how true that is, but I read it like they are Muslim because they are from Muslm familes and say tey are muslim but they aren't religious."
LOLLLL it's funny reading through your posts and comparing this statement to: "Also since Christianity is already the religion of the vast majority, how can it grow? USA-80% Christian, Mexico-95% Christian, Canada-70% Christian, UK-70% Christian, Germany-70% Christian, France-90% Christian."
Do you happen to know what percentage of these "Christians" are religious? Or do you only use statistics as facts for yourself, but arbitrary bullshit for me? That was too easy... moving right along.
"Yes thrre are lmost 150 million Muslims in India but there are over 800 million Hindus. There are more Muslims in Pakistan than in India, and al those used to be part of India."
I'm gonna bring up my original post on India: "India - Muslims ruled India for about 1000 years. Now look at the population of Hindus in India, or better yet look at the proportion of Hindus to Muslims and tell me that Muslims forced the Hindus to convert by "the sword"."
You just confirmed it.
In the last post you stated:"The ones that were fully converted became Pakistan."
However, now we know that isn't true as you just admitted that there are almost 150 million Muslims in India, which is close to the number of Muslims in Pakistan, so we could say that a little more than half of the "fully converted" became Pakistan. Keep the bullshit out homie cuz I'ma call you out on it.
Show me where the Muslim Mongols are. Over 75% live in Mongolia and Inner Mongolia and they are almost all Bhuddists. You can talk about crossbred descendants all you want but the bulk of Mongols still live in Mongolia and are Bhuddist.
You can't talk about history and historic facts without taking into account crossbred descendants. The "bulk of Mongols" live in Mongolia... no shit, but if can't take into account that they ruled from Korea to Hungary, and that their descendants remain in parts of these lands, especially Central Asia, then your ignorance can't be blamed on me. I gave you a specific example of the Hazara ethnicity in Afghanistan who are direct descendants of the Mongols/Huns/etc.
When I say it's hard to convert Chritians and Muslims I mean devout ones, not ones that converted because it was easier to live under the coutries rules. You say India converted to Islam, so then why did 80% convert back to Hinduism?
I never said India converted to Islam. LOLL you keep proving my point. Once again, same quote:"India - Muslims ruled India for about 1000 years. Now look at the population of Hindus in India, or better yet look at the proportion of Hindus to Muslims and tell me that Muslims forced the Hindus to convert by "the sword"."
I don't know if you have trouble putting 2 and 2 together, but if you find it easier to believe that 800 million people converted to Islam and back to Hinduism, be my guest.
--- Quote from: Shallow on September 16, 2005, 03:06:54 PM ---And then there's this;
"LOL we won't even talk about the contradiction, but I just want to ask you something. If these people in the West are so "easily" converting from Christianity to Islam (since the majority is Christian), then could the same not be true centuries ago in places where the majority was Christian? That's the only point I was trying to make by bringing up America/Europe. "
I'm not sure what you are getting at. There is no contradiction in what I said. It's hard to convert devout Christians because they are devout. It's not as hard to convert people who were told to be Christians by their parents and then feel like doing something different for a while. I'd like to see how many Muslims would convert in the Islamic world if it was acceptable in society to even read Gospel. Every Muslim I know would get slapped in the mouth if they were caught with a New Testament by their parents drowing up, and they live in Canada. I can only imagine what it's like in Iran.
When I say ofcourse it's the fastest growing I mean Christianity can't grow it's already the huge majority. You can only grow so much. Talk to me when Islam comes anywhere near close to the numbers Christianity has in North America or Europe. This growth rate works in percentages. It's like if there are 2 Muslims in Nebraska and two more convert, and you come to me with the headline; "The Islamic population in Nebraska has doubled". It doesn't mean shit because there are two. (That was a hypothetical example).
--- End quote ---
I think you're having trouble comprehending simple statements, so let me clarify once again... I wish I could have diagrams here for people like you, but whatever...
I know the growth rate works in percentages, and you're missing the whole point, even though I've stated it time and time again. The point I was making by saying that more people are converting from Christianity to Islam each year in America/Europe is that: Don't you think the same could've been true back then in lands where the majority of the population was Christian?
--- Quote from: Shallow on September 16, 2005, 03:06:54 PM ---I'm not even going to respond to you
--- End quote ---
Anyways, you made all those correction, so I made another one for you:
"I am one of the most stubborn posters on the forum. If the issue at hand cannot be 100% proven then I will argue it to death or until you I give up"
Nice talking to you. :)
Shallow:
I haven't given up you just keep contradicting yourself. Your beating yourself more than I'm beating you. You bring up one point I respond to it and then you call the point irrlevant.
What I meant with Indonesia was that I read that the Governemt forces people to pick a religion, and I said I'm not sure how true that was.
If there are more Hindus in India than Muslim then were there at a time more muslims than Hindu or did the Hindu's remain Hindu and lived as second rate citizens? Either way it doesn't hurt my argument. When I say "by the sword" I mean or force, even if indirectly. If you conquer a nationand say you don't have to convert but those that don't will be enslaved or have to live at the bottom then that isn't willful conversion. It's a disgrace to the God that you worship. It goes against the very basis of what God is supposed to be.
Hazara is stil in the Minority of Mongols and they live in an Islamic country. I'll bet if the Afaghanistan was Chrstian from day one that the they would be Christian too. It's called adapting to your surroundings because sometimes you are forced to.
Here it is. You say that Islam never forced anyone to convert and we had a mix up from the beginning, because to me forcing someone and bribing someone (and punishing them when they won't take the bribe) are the same thing. You may think otherwise.
J @ M @ L:
--- Quote from: Shallow on September 16, 2005, 04:06:34 PM ---I haven't given up you just keep contradicting yourself. Your beating yourself more than I'm beating you. You bring up one point I respond to it and then you call the point irrlevant.
Talk about a delusion... you say I bring up a point and you respond to it? Please stop the bullshit... let me quote you:
"I'm not even going to respond to you, other than correcting a few mistakes you made when interpreting what I meant."
Even with that, I still respond to your "corrections" and point out everything. What I called irrelevant is your comments like "maybe the Indians converted to Islam and then converted back to Hinduism"... this is your own fucking opinion with no ground to base that 800 million Hindus converted to Islam and back to Hinduism. If anyone is beating themselves, it's you. You argue against my point, and while you do so, you bring up evidence to back my claim. Thanks.
What I meant with Indonesia was that I read that the Governemt forces people to pick a religion, and I said I'm not sure how true that was.
What percentage do you want to assign to that? Come on just make something up and I'll go with it. Even if you said 50%... 50 fucking percent... that would still be over 80 million people... you're reaching for straws man.
If there are more Hindus in India than Muslim then were there at a time more muslims than Hindu or did the Hindu's remain Hindu and lived as second rate citizens? Either way it doesn't hurt my argument. When I say "by the sword" I mean or force, even if indirectly. If you conquer a nationand say you don't have to convert but those that don't will be enslaved or have to live at the bottom then that isn't willful conversion. It's a disgrace to the God that you worship. It goes against the very basis of what God is supposed to be.
No there weren't more Muslims than Hindus. The poor Hindus converted because they were 3rd rate citizens within their own caste system. You're making assumptions here... I bring up facts, and you keep coming with "maybe this happened", "well probably this happened"... yeah the Muslims in America and Europe are also conquering America and Europe and are telling the Christians to convert or become slaves. ::)
Hazara is stil in the Minority of Mongols and they live in an Islamic country. I'll bet if the Afaghanistan was Chrstian from day one that the they would be Christian too. It's called adapting to your surroundings because sometimes you are forced to.
Hazara is in the minority of Mongols, but it's an example of one country. The Mongol empire stretched from Korea to Hungary. Did you know that some of the Greeks who conquered under Alexander... remained in Afghanistan and crossbred with the Afghan population there? If you were to make some dumb remark like "show me the Greeks in Afghanistan" I obviously wouldn't be able to "show you", but if you had any sort of common sense alongside some knowledge, you would know.
Here it is. You say that Islam never forced anyone to convert and we had a mix up from the beginning, because to me forcing someone and bribing someone (and punishing them when they won't take the bribe) are the same thing. You may think otherwise.
Here it is. You can't comprehend simple statements. Let me quote myself once again, since you have trouble remembering things:
"Muhammad and later Umar spent a lot of time conquering with their swords just as much as their wisdom."
By conquering we were talking about forced conversions, and I was saying that Muhammad didn't use force to convert people.
In the second part of your post you said:
"It wasn't until after Rome adopted it that it started detiorating, but he essence is alive and well in my opinion and just because those that claimed to be the head of the religion over the centuries contradicted it does not mean the religion is at fault. If I go aroud Toronto killing people and carving DUBCC on their heads, should the forum be blamed, or should it be me?"
I agree with that, so keep that in mind throughout the post.
And please don't accuse me of contradicting myself when you make comments like:
"It's really easy to grow rapidly in conversions when everyone is mostly Christian".
"Like I said, it's hard to convert Christians, just like it's hard to convert Muslims."
I'm tired of arguing with people who have no background knowledge of the subject at hand, and continue reaching for straws, making assumptions, and purposely putting words in my mouth just because they have no ground to base their argument on... and it's getting boring because I feel like I'm teaching people like you and CWalker instead of discussing.
--- End quote ---
J @ M @ L:
Now look through the last 2 or 3 of my posts... and see how after fucking up your entire argument with facts, you come with "well maybe this", and "probably this".... and tell yourself that you won the argument. I could really care less... tell yourself that I contradicted myself... when your posts are flip-flopping like John Kerry's pancakes... you already admitted you won't (can't) respond... so instead of trying to "make corrections" over and over... just save yourself the trouble because at this point you're just another CWalker... you admitted you were the most "stubborn" person... so there really is no point in trying to convince you that I'm right when you're telling yourself whatever helps you sleep at night. I shouldn't have even responded to your corrections, since you had no argument but were just trying to clarify your first post for your own dignity... understandable. However, I shouldn't have even responded after:
--- Quote from: Shallow on September 16, 2005, 08:11:51 AM ---I never claimed to be the smartest, but definitely the most stubborn.
--- End quote ---
because you have proven just that.... part 1 and 2 of that sentence.
Have a good day.
ZILLA THA GOODFELLA:
CWalker, without getting into detail, you don't believe Christopher Columbus was a murderer?
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