Lifestyle > Train of Thought
What kills more black people?
Eihtball:
--- Quote from: nibs on November 26, 2005, 05:01:32 PM ---kids listening to 50 and snoop is not the problem. how old are you? any young black professional you see today from 24-32 grew up (high school, college) listening to n.w.a. and snoop. you seem to be of this same generation, so what makes you special? did you not listen to snoop, or death row or ruthless? it's not like "successful blacks" are the ones that turned their backs on n.w.a.; that simply is not the case. you can't blame the music, as what is wrong in teh black community is much bigger than the music, and it's exacerbated by the dogs and vultures that continue to prey on and exploit the community. but you can't blame the music.
--- End quote ---
I'm 28. And yes, I grew up listening to N.W.A., Dre, Eazy, Snoop, Cube, Warren G, etc. I used to listen to "Doggystyle" so much that the tape eventually popped. On the other hand, I also listened to alternative stuff like Das EFX, Fu-Schnickens, and Digital Underground about as often as I listened to the gangsta stuff. That is the difference between my generation and this generation - when I was growing up, it was possible for Das EFX to sell multi-Platinum right alongside Dr. Dre (and that happened regularly). Gangsta rap was still too controversial, and major labels were still approaching it hesitantly - this was back in the days when conservative organizations were trying to get all of the gangstas thrown off their labels, and it was actually a realistic goal because there were so few of them.
It wasn't until around 1999 (after I'd graduated from college) that hip-hop - and specifically, gangsta rap - became established as the new dominant musical genre, and the controversy had died down and it all became acceptable. That led to the problem we have today - "gangsta"/"pimp"/"playa" became the dominant image, obscuring everything else. After 1999, if you weren't gangsta or thuggish, it was highly unlikely you'd sell Gold. It's only been recently that we've seen a reversion away from that trend (Kanye and Common selling Gold and Platinum), and I think that's simply because the market has been so over-saturated with thug shit for so long that even white kids may be getting tired of it. Indie hipster music (Death Cab For Cutie, The Shins, etc.) seems to be the new pop trend of white kids these days.
Anyway, it may not be fair to blame the individual rappers (I keep citing 50 and Snoop only because they're the most popular), but hip-hop is both a culture and a form of music. If the gangsta image becomes dominant, it becomes influential. If there was as many 50s' as there are Talibs, we'd have no problem. But as long as a culture linked to black identity is associated only with thuggin' and pimpin', it is hijacking and ruining our sense of identity as a people. I look at black kids today and indeed, many of them don't seem to listen to stuff like Mos Def or Common as often as 50 and Dipset. It's as much a problem with white kids as well as blacks, but the difference is, white kids don't live in an environment where being a gang member or a hustler is considered a viable way to live. So maybe hip-hop isn't the cause of the problem, but as long as the culture embraces the image of the gangsta entirely instead of treating it as merely one perspective of the inner-city (as it was in the early-90s'), things are certainly not changing.
And that's not how it should be - the promise of hip-hop that Public Enemy and even N.W.A. offered blacks was the potential to facilitate change by awakening AmeriKKKa to its own nightmare. That has yet to happen - and it dissapoints me.
--- Quote ---i completely disagree with your conclusion. kids in the ghetto that actually see the streets better know that hustlin', slangin'...is not glamorous, and is often not rewarding. these are the kids that have older brothers or uncles or whatever that are able to directly challenge the imagery they see on tv, and if anything are better suited with dealing with these negative images. unlike these posers in the suburbs or over in europe that tend to think everything is a game. and more importantly, where is the parenting? the images you see in the media and in multimedia are not as powerful as the direction that kids take from their parents. part of life is dealing with positive and negative influences all the time, and parents and family influences are going to outweigh anything one sees on tv or hears on some album. the music isn't nearly as big a problem as your comments would make things se
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Actually, that's not how it is. Even if they do recognize how dangerous the crack game is, though, they won't necesarily care. If you're broke and desperate, you'll take serious risks to get your paper. These cats may have homies that got shot or arrested, but that doesn't mean they'll recognize the downfall of the gangsta lifestyle automatically. Everyone I knew who hustled thought they wouldn't make the same mistakes as the people they knew who failed to come up. It's too easy to overestimate yourself - you can think, "I won't slang on this corner" or "I'll dump on these fools before they dump on me".
The music may not be a huge problem, but as I've said before, it's not helping. 50 makes it look like anyone can hustle and get rich, when that's not the case. Environment is an overwhelming factor, but music can be a part of that. As I've said, the gangsta image should not dominate hip-hop - brothers shouldn't feel as if hustling is the only way to come up.
nibs:
--- Quote from: Eihtball on November 26, 2005, 05:31:33 PM ---On the other hand, I also listened to alternative stuff like Das EFX
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"if only" was my shia...but das got pretty gangsta at times. iirc "hard like a criminal" was pretty gangsta, although just a b-side, still gangsta...
--- Quote ---Fu-Schnickens
--- End quote ---
"f.u. don't take it personal" - what type of message is that? "la schmoove"?!? lol. that was a hot track, but what type of message is that?
but seriously, let me make sure i understand your argument 100%
- blacks are a minority
- the white majority has demonstrated a preference for black music that reinforces negative stereotypes
- major record labels cater to this white majority as that is where the sales are
+ as a result: black music, and hip hop culture in general, is artificially imbalanced with music and content containing "self-destructive" and "negative" themes and messages. this imbalance is detrimental to the black community; and a result of basically the effects of a capitalist free market where the dominant consumer body prefers content that portrays the minority in a negative light...which would be a self-perpetuating self-reinforcing cycle per sé...
if this is your argument, it's hard to blame the record labels, they are simply trying to make a buck as best they know how. it seems like the true villain is the psychology of the larger white audience and their preference for these negative images...this isn't even an overtly hostile act, more of a byproduct of the collective psyche of the white audience...
nibs:
--- Quote from: Eihtball on November 26, 2005, 05:31:33 PM ---Actually, that's not how it is. Even if they do recognize how dangerous the crack game is, though, they won't necesarily care. If you're broke and desperate, you'll take serious risks to get your paper. These cats may have homies that got shot or arrested, but that doesn't mean they'll recognize the downfall of the gangsta lifestyle automatically.
--- End quote ---
yes, but you don't need a rapper to tell you this. the drug game (especially crack) blew up way before the music. the music followed it. i think that the problem is that you have people who are "broke & desperate". you take away the rappers and they will still look to slangin'. you take away the drugs and they still look to larceny, burglaries, robberies...criminality in general. the real problem is the "broke" and especially the "desperate". drug dealing or any other form of criminality is merely an expression of that reality.
--- Quote ---Everyone I knew who hustled thought they wouldn't make the same mistakes as the people they knew who failed to come up. It's too easy to overestimate yourself - you can think, "I won't slang on this corner" or "I'll dump on these fools before they dump on me".
--- End quote ---
we don't disagree here. what i'm saying is there is a difference between indiduals that are broke and look to criminality as an outlet, vs individuals in the sub-urbs that hear about slanging and decide to slang rather than work a summer job to buy clothes for school and have money to party. kids that work at the mall or do something basic for work, and then turn around and try slanging as easy money to augment their income. like a part time job or something.
--- Quote ---The music may not be a huge problem, but as I've said before, it's not helping.
--- End quote ---
i don't think we disagree, but the reality is if you get rid of the negative imagery in the music and culture, you still have individuals that are broke and desperate. where as if you get rid of the desperation, people can much easier reject the tempation of "easy" money.
Eihtball:
--- Quote from: nibs on November 26, 2005, 06:21:27 PM ---"if only" was my shia...but das got pretty gangsta at times. iirc "hard like a criminal" was pretty gangsta, although just a b-side, still gangsta...
"f.u. don't take it personal" - what type of message is that? "la schmoove"?!? lol. that was a hot track, but what type of message is that?
--- End quote ---
LOL, yeah, neither of them was perfect, but at least they were original for the time. Das EFX started selling out to the gangsta image later, tho.
--- Quote from: nibs on November 26, 2005, 06:21:27 PM ---but seriously, let me make sure i understand your argument 100%
- blacks are a minority
- the white majority has demonstrated a preference for black music that reinforces negative stereotypes
- major record labels cater to this white majority as that is where the sales are
+ as a result: black music, and hip hop culture in general, is artificially imbalanced with music and content containing "self-destructive" and "negative" themes and messages. this imbalance is detrimental to the black community; and a result of basically the effects of a capitalist free market where the dominant consumer body prefers content that portrays the minority in a negative light...which would be a self-perpetuating self-reinforcing cycle per sé...
if this is your argument, it's hard to blame the record labels, they are simply trying to make a buck as best they know how. it seems like the true villain is the psychology of the larger white audience and their preference for these negative images...this isn't even an overtly hostile act, more of a byproduct of the collective psyche of the white audience...
--- End quote ---
Yes, you've got my argument exactly. It's that simple. You've articulated it even better than I did, frankly.
And yes, record labels may just be doing what it takes to make money, but the fact is that it is fair to hold them as accountable as the rappers themselves. Still, as you've said, it mostly has to do with the way society is right now. White people like CWalker need to stop preaching to us to be "civilized" unless they're willing to take a good, long look at themselves first. If they want blacks to stop glorifying gangsterism, then they need to stop rewarding rappers who promote this lifestyle and encouraging them to put out such product so that they can get off on it with this whole sadomachoistic fantasy crap.
Oh, yeah, and never forget how many rappers were influenced by WHITE gangster flicks (The Godfather, Scarface, Goodfellas, etc.). That is the ultimate irony of the gangsta rap debate right now that I rarely hear mentioned.
--- Quote from: nibs on November 26, 2005, 06:42:55 PM ---yes, but you don't need a rapper to tell you this. the drug game (especially crack) blew up way before the music. the music followed it. i think that the problem is that you have people who are "broke & desperate". you take away the rappers and they will still look to slangin'. you take away the drugs and they still look to larceny, burglaries, robberies...criminality in general. the real problem is the "broke" and especially the "desperate". drug dealing or any other form of criminality is merely an expression of that reality.
we don't disagree here. what i'm saying is there is a difference between indiduals that are broke and look to criminality as an outlet, vs individuals in the sub-urbs that hear about slanging and decide to slang rather than work a summer job to buy clothes for school and have money to party. kids that work at the mall or do something basic for work, and then turn around and try slanging as easy money to augment their income. like a part time job or something.
i don't think we disagree, but the reality is if you get rid of the negative imagery in the music and culture, you still have individuals that are broke and desperate. where as if you get rid of the desperation, people can much easier reject the tempation of "easy" money.
--- End quote ---
As I've said, the problem is not that I think gangsta rap causes crime necesarily - there was a crack trade, Crips & Bloods, drive-bys and all that shit long before it. And there will be long after hip-hop loses its prominence in American culture. But to say it has no effect whatsoever would be an exaggeration - most gangsta rappers (not all) do desensitize people to the realities of gang life, because many of them DO actually glorify the lifestyle, not just portray it. This can effect anyone, white or black, poor or rich. So yes, getting ride of negative imagery won't make the problem go away, but frankly, it would help. This shouldn't involve banning rappers, though - I simply believe that the 50 Cents and Snoop Doggs of the world need to be balanced out with more Commons and De La Souls. That way, even if gangsta rap still existed, at least it wouldn't dominate hip-hop and thus make the thug lifestyle an acceptable part of this culture...because it shouldn't be.
Real American:
--- Quote from: Eihtball on November 26, 2005, 03:59:00 PM ---
No, blacks don't determine what is cool - they are exploited for that purpose. N.W.A. never asked for their typpe of music to become a pop culture trend - Ice Cube even asked rhetorically, "Do I look like a muthafuckin role model?" Corporations know that the stereotype of a dangerous, savage, sexually charged black man turns on white consumers - it's a stereotype that has always proven to sell (remember the minstrel shows of the 19th century?) Hardcore rap gave them an opportunity to do this in the late-80s' - and they've been successful with it.
And as I Represent Athletes keeps pointing out - white kids are the majority. They're the ones who buy the records because of their numbers and the fact that they have most of the money. So who do you think the lables listen to? THEM! And if the white kids want thugs (which they do), the labels give them thugs. It's that simple.
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I honestly think you are in denial. Like I said before, white people don't embrace any black artist before they are already embraced in the black community. Before 50 Cent sold his first record to a white person, he was in the hood selling mixtapes and building up a buzz with his gangsta schtick. So thugging and pimping isn't any more popular among white people than it is with black people. I just think you are embarassed by the way these rappers act and try to rationalize it by saying "they are just acting like savages to entertain white people". But white people were buying black music in droves long before gangsta rap started and they will be buying black music long after gangsta rap is gone. Little Richard in the 50's, The Temptations in the 60's, Stevie Wonder in the 70's, Michael jackson in the 80's...they all sold millions to white people and didn't act like savages. Whatever music black people make will be embraced by white people. So don't blame us for the way black rappers act today.
--- Quote from: Eihtball on November 26, 2005, 03:59:00 PM ---
And I'm REAL sure you would know how hard my life was, wouldn't you, white boy?
I don't consider myself a victim at all - I realize that I'm the only one who has the power to determine the course of my life. Nor do I expect Uncle Sam to "take care of me". On the other hand, because UNLIKE YOU, I know what I had to go through to come up, I recognize that the system is not entirely fair, and is pretty much set up to disadvantage blacks. Since I now teach at a college, I'm also quite familiar with the nature of what the average suburban white kid goes through - I can safely say that none of the kids in my class have any concept of the word "struggle". They're kids whose parents paid their tuition, who are more interested in getting wasted and stoned than doing the work I assign (and I have to give them endless extensions for reasons of "work-related stress". They've had their lives handed to them compared to me. And I doubt you're any different.
Oh, and by the way, don't come at me with your argument "blacks can't be lacking advantages - we have affirmative action", which conservatives always use. Anyone who has ever needed financial aid will tell you how little that system really benefits those who use it. I was working 2 jobs on-campus to pay tuition in college, plus I was a double-major, so balancing class and long work hours was tough.
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So basically the whole personal struggle and inequality you were talking about in this thread was that you had to work 2 jobs while going to college? Well boo hoo, join the real world. I don't know where you supposedly teach, but you just described about 90% of the kids I went to college with, myself included. No one ever said life was easy. If you really think the average white kid goes through life with everything handed to them on a plate I am going to guess you really don't know that many white people. You choose to believe what you want to believe.
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