West Coast Connection Forum
Lifestyle => Train of Thought => Topic started by: TraceOneInfinite Flat Earther 96' on May 18, 2008, 08:22:32 PM
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Obama as Commander and Chief could change things when it comes to America's role on the world stage. Having an African man who grew up in Indonesia and had a Muslim father might make me potentially consider joining the navy or something...( because I have been having financial, carear, and school problems).
What do ya'll think?
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aren't you libertarian? against government intervening in foreign affairs unless its a direct threat to us?
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Don't fool yourself into thinking that Obama (or almost anyone for that matter) can come in and end all U.S. armed combat in the world. While the military industrial complex remains supreme and the citizens are oblivious of this, America will continue to be thrust into battles around the world. Political pressure may force the next president to end the war in Iraq, but don't think another country is not next in line.
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aren't you libertarian? against government intervening in foreign affairs unless its a direct threat to us?
Well right now I'm eatin off the government health care system looting the tax payers money and providing "care" in a way that is totally innefficient and rarely meets its objectives.
The idea in joining the navy under Obama would be to get a workout, wire all my paychecks to a savings account, and get out in 3 years having never stepped foot in Afganistan, Somalia, Iraq, or Iran. Getting thru three years without any combat and setting up my future financially.
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As long as there's a "war on terror" i would never consider joining no matter who the president was.
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Don't fool yourself into thinking that Obama (or almost anyone for that matter) can come in and end all U.S. armed combat in the world. While the military industrial complex remains supreme and the citizens are oblivious of this, America will continue to be thrust into battles around the world. Political pressure may force the next president to end the war in Iraq, but don't think another country is not next in line.
exactly, the president is a pawn, the real kingpin bosses run the military weaponry industries and shit, their benefits from war are fuckin crazy. And i dont see them losing their job or billions of dollars for obama, whether he becomes president or a fuckin god. but yeah most people ignore this
8) 8) 8)
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Word, the face may change but the fake inward and outwardly oppressive war on terror rolls on. The day one of these so called leaders calls a stop to this vileness is the day when my faith in mainstream politics is restored. I have a feeling that I will have a long wait on my hands before such a day is born.
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Wouldn't you guys say that some leaders have been a bit more extreme in their military actions than others?
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just because of his color of his skin and background is the stupidest shit i ever heard. nigga isnt gettin up there by himself. white mans backing his ass up.
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Wouldn't you guys say that some leaders have been a bit more extreme in their military actions than others?
of course clowns like Bush back this kind of politics, but the other way around is impossible
8) 8) 8)
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aren't you libertarian? against government intervening in foreign affairs unless its a direct threat to us?
Well right now I'm eatin off the government health care system looting the tax payers money and providing "care" in a way that is totally innefficient and rarely meets its objectives.
The idea in joining the navy under Obama would be to get a workout, wire all my paychecks to a savings account, and get out in 3 years having never stepped foot in Afganistan, Somalia, Iraq, or Iran. Getting thru three years without any combat and setting up my future financially.
not a bad idea....just make sure ur patriotic man, respect the country even if it does wrong things, thats part of joining the military...
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The closest I ever came to joining the Army was when I was 18 and I had just graduated high school without a job or any future plans of any sort.
My motivation was the fact that the DoD had just raised the college tuition reimbursement rates to $40 Grande a year...which would have really helped me get into the school I wanted to go to. Plus, Clinton was still president back then, so the worst I'd have had to worry about would have been getting shipped off to some pissant little peacekeeping operation like Sarajevo or Kosovo...as opposed to today, when you gotta worry about getting sent to Iraq or Afghanistan and getting your balls blown off by an IED (the most horrible way to get yourself killed or maimed, IMO).
Anyway, I would say I seriously considered doing it for about...I dunno, 3-4 minutes total? Even in those circumstances, I just wasn't desperate enough to do something as stupid as join the military. And even if Obama becomes President, he has said he intends to keep us in Afghanistan. Hardly an improvement.
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aren't you libertarian? against government intervening in foreign affairs unless its a direct threat to us?
Well right now I'm eatin off the government health care system looting the tax payers money and providing "care" in a way that is totally innefficient and rarely meets its objectives.
The idea in joining the navy under Obama would be to get a workout, wire all my paychecks to a savings account, and get out in 3 years having never stepped foot in Afganistan, Somalia, Iraq, or Iran. Getting thru three years without any combat and setting up my future financially.
i got fam in the military ("son all my killaz is fam none hired -Masta Killa") and they all desperately WANT soooo bad to go overseas, because that is what they train for every waking moment to do, the joy of opening fire and getting contact, plus you get showered with chedder from an overseas deployment, deployment in East Timor=$60,000 lump sum BOOM into your savings account after a 6 month deployment,
Afghanistan=BOOM $120,000. On top of your base rate of pay, which you always keep getting anyway constantly. Thats the Aussie military anyway, i dunno about the US, i hear it ain't as good for US infantrymen...the US navy would be cool though, id consider that...
The real money for infantrymen is in overseas deployment. Australia ain't really in Iraq anymore, but the heat may ease off the US there, Haliburton is doing its thing, the oil is secured...and we can always come provide air support and such and such while shia and sunni bang like crip and blood....
Afghanistan will probably be needing more help soon...So id say consider Infinite, but bear in mind you will have to get into the frame of mind that you will most likely be going somewhere overseas because that would be your job, so not wanting to would be counter-productive on the mental and hypocritical, you may not agree with the reasons (my brothers don't) but that as a soldier is beside the point when your job is to go there and eat the hearts of the taliban...
Although everyday, I rejoice that I didn't join myself, because you are basically owned, its totally different from civilian life...your actions are totally controlled.
Overfiend jus wants to drink tea, expel clouds of Jah smoke and finish u.n.i-versity...
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Surely the whole concept of being in the military would change if Obama is the president. ::)
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lol, what happens when you get deployed to Iran and have to kill Muslims?
You're a trip bro
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I love these Ron Paul people... lol.
No matter who is president, we as a nation would have to keep them honest. No president has been completely for the will of the people, it's hard to appease that many people. But, we have to hold the president accountable. Obama has a unique obligation because that's what his running on, and it's time we take our president and say, you said this, lets hold you too it.
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I love these Ron Paul people... lol.
No matter who is president, we as a nation would have to keep them honest. No president has been completely for the will of the people, it's hard to appease that many people. But, we have to hold the president accountable. Obama has a unique obligation because that's what his running on, and it's time we take our president and say, you said this, lets hold you too it.
You may have good reason to think that Obama will stop armed combat, but Infinite is being foolish if he thinks that just because Obama is half black and actually knows something about Muslims that joining the military won't have him deployed in combat/dangerous missions.
Then again if you really need the money, the the Navy would probably be the best of all services to join compared to the Marines or Army.
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Then again if you really need the money, the the Navy would probably be the best of all services to join compared to the Marines or Army.
Yeah, you can patrol the Persian Gulf in huge, multi-billion dollar warships that (in this day and age) will probably get destroyed by suicide bombers in speedboats. I think the Revolutionary Guard even train for this kind of scenario...no thanks.
If I were going to join any branch of the military (and lord knows I won't), I'd join the Coast Guard. Not only do you do nothing except domestic security, but those CGA chicks are damn fine. Coast Guard is maybe the one branch where the women actually look good instead of looking like dykes.
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Then again if you really need the money, the the Navy would probably be the best of all services to join compared to the Marines or Army.
Yeah, you can patrol the Persian Gulf in huge, multi-billion dollar warships that (in this day and age) will probably get destroyed by suicide bombers in speedboats. I think the Revolutionary Guard even train for this kind of scenario...no thanks.
lol. youre so retarded.
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Then again if you really need the money, the the Navy would probably be the best of all services to join compared to the Marines or Army.
Yeah, you can patrol the Persian Gulf in huge, multi-billion dollar warships that (in this day and age) will probably get destroyed by suicide bombers in speedboats. I think the Revolutionary Guard even train for this kind of scenario...no thanks.
lol. youre so retarded.
How so? Got anything better to say than that, pale face?
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In my understanding of the military, U.S soldiers are paid peanuts compared to the mercs who now outnumber the official military presence in Iraq. Having said that of course, the mercs are there to do all sorts of foul shit and thus are bigger targets, that and of course could you really be a part of such foul shit? The army has a way of seducing people into the us and them mentality, they become your family, you protect your family no matter what and that means being complicit in horrible horrible crimes against people.
Food for thought for you, I have spoken to English soldiers who have come back from Afghanistan and said yeah that it's quite common knowledge that American solders will wipe out entire villages if hostiles are identified within the populous. If you recall also, i recently posted an article in which the rand corporation has compiled it's own statistics on the number of dead American soldiers and they put the figure at over 100,000, want to be another statistic?
As for Obama, he like the UK government, has pledged more troops into Afghanistan, I still find it amazing that there is so much outrage against Iraq (rightly so of course) but an almost deafening silence on Afghanistan.
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Food for thought for you, I have spoken to English soldiers who have come back from Afghanistan and said yeah that it's quite common knowledge that American solders will wipe out entire villages if hostiles are identified within the populous. If you recall also, i recently posted an article in which the rand corporation has compiled it's own statistics on the number of dead American soldiers and they put the figure at over 100,000, want to be another statistic?
That's how you fight back against guerilla forces. It's an extremely brutal business, but that is how it's done. Otherwise, the troops don't have much choice but to get shot at by unknown, shadowy insurgents who attack them with IEDs and distant AK/RPG fire, and it's only so long before they get pissed off and shit like Mai Lai happens.
I highly doubt the English troops are any better. These are the dudes who basically pioneered concentration camps. I guarantee you the Brits would love to take shit back to the days of the Boer campaign if they could.
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Morality has fallen so rapidly in such a short space of time, I shouldn't' even be needing to say this, do not rationalize the mass murder of men women and children. Do not think for a second I don't know the tactics employed by the British troops even in Ireland either. The fact is it's evil, protecting the innocent is the job of the military! just because these pieces of filth disregard human life as nothing does not make it so.
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Morality has fallen so rapidly in such a short space of time, I shouldn't' even be needing to say this, do not rationalize the mass murder of men women and children. Do not think for a second I don't know the tactics employed by the British troops even in Ireland either. The fact is it's evil, protecting the innocent is the job of the military! just because these pieces of filth disregard human life as nothing does not make it so.
Right, I agree wholeheartedly. I just think it's important you understand that CI warfare brings out the worst in man. That was basically the point of the movie "Apocalypse Now" - fighting against guerillas is an extremely bloody business, and atrocities are part of that business. This is what happens to Colonel Kurtz...he's basically gone insane because he's really patriotic and wants to win the war, but the only way he can do it is through incredibly barbaric acts.
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Morality has fallen so rapidly in such a short space of time, I shouldn't' even be needing to say this, do not rationalize the mass murder of men women and children. Do not think for a second I don't know the tactics employed by the British troops even in Ireland either. The fact is it's evil, protecting the innocent is the job of the military! just because these pieces of filth disregard human life as nothing does not make it so.
Right, I agree wholeheartedly. I just think it's important you understand that CI warfare brings out the worst in man. That was basically the point of the movie "Apocalypse Now" - fighting against guerillas is an extremely bloody business, and atrocities are part of that business. This is what happens to Colonel Kurtz...he's basically gone insane because he's really patriotic and wants to win the war, but the only way he can do it is through incredibly barbaric acts.
Word, they can be driven to the point where it begins to make the most sense in that type of situation. A friend of mine in East Timor recently told me how they nearly wiped out a whole wedding party over kids with toy guns pointing them at them. There is a very real human element to it aswell, as in 'survival, mutherfucker, do you want to?' Dudes ive known since we were babies, come back changed, but after a few weeks they begin to get open again. Wu-Tang is for the babies.
I think Afghanistan will get more help in the next few months if not in a year, we have troops already scheduled to go there for next year, alot of people banking on that deplaoyment, also, its something we (as in NATO allied countries) and the mainstream LEFT can probably agree on more easily as opposed to Iraq...
"its my job" he'd say, I do it for pay..."
-Bob Dylan, the story of the Hurricane.
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Alright, my bad I thought you trying to say it's understandable, see here is the thing, I know on an individual basis these soldiers flip out but their commanding officers are cold cruel and calculating, they give the order to give these ticking time bombs to do whatever they want. I bet ya that is the reason for the massive number of suicides of troops because they either committed a terrible act of butchery and in the cold light of day can no longer with themselves, or soldiers who have witnessed fellow soldiers blowing kids brains out, have watched entire villages being mown down by bullets, helpless to stop it and so end their life to end the pain.
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Alright, my bad I thought you trying to say it's understandable, see here is the thing, I know on an individual basis these soldiers flip out but their commanding officers are cold cruel and calculating, they give the order to give these ticking time bombs to do whatever they want. I bet ya that is the reason for the massive number of suicides of troops because they either committed a terrible act of butchery and in the cold light of day can no longer with themselves, or soldiers who have witnessed fellow soldiers blowing kids brains out, have watched entire villages being mown down by bullets, helpless to stop it and so end their life to end the pain.
But see...THIS is the part I can never agree with you on. You're always looking for conspiracy theories, always trying to find some "evil" person who's behind it all. Because you read too much of this Prison Planet stuff.
The COs are hardly any different than the men on the ground. They don't fight house-to-house and get shot at day in and day out without being able to tell who the enemies are, but they are under orders to achieve their objectives (i.e. secure this village, make this highway safe for convoys, etc.). They get incredibly frustrated in the same kind of way - no matter how many times they "pacify" an area, it always erupts into chaos again sooner or later, and they keep losing men. Same basic circumstances...and that's where you get atrocities in places like Fallujah in 2004 and the Mukaradeeb massacre.
I would agree that suicide rates are increasing for the reason you said...seeing the kind of stuff these kids see (and please remember most soldiers in Iraq right now are 18 to 25) really does take a toll on their mental health.
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I wasn't suggesting it was some secretive plan, look I have spoken to high ranking sergeants before and they are very dismissive of life. I am saying those who give the orders to carry out what has become practice are more guilty than those who actually do so. A conspiracy is shrouded in secrecy usually but this is much worse, this is just brazen, they have turned these soldiers into inhuman monsters and have compounded the situation by increasing the length of their tour.
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I wasn't suggesting it was some secretive plan, look I have spoken to high ranking sergeants before and they are very dismissive of life. I am saying those who give the orders to carry out what has become practice are more guilty than those who actually do so. A conspiracy is shrouded in secrecy usually but this is much worse, this is just brazen, they have turned these soldiers into inhuman monsters and have compounded the situation by increasing the length of their tour.
I don't think I have ever met a soldier (from the most senior to the most humble) who wasn't "dismissive of life". That's part of the job. Any job that involves killing requires you to be dismissive of life when it's between yours and theirs.
"They" haven't turned these soldiers into anything...the circumstances in which these soldiers operate have. That is the nature of this war, of ANY guerilla war. That's the lesson we should have learned in Vietnam, and which the Israelis should have learned in South Lebanon. Nobody in a Western army is capable of dealing with the enormous stresses of fighting this kind of war without resorting to brutality. Actually, I think the biggest part of the problem is the fact that these men go into Iraq with some idea that they're going to liberate the population from the Islamists, and make Iraq into this wonderful Arab democratic country, and then when they find out how complicated things are, they get disillusioned. On the one hand, they're supposed to be converting the population to democracy, and yet they have to handle the reality that the insurgency runs deep into the population. Military doctrine just hasn't learned to handle this contradiction.
BTW, there's a quote from 4th25's album that has always haunted me, but it goes a long way towards explaining the way that CI warfare fucks with a soldier's mind:
"I don't care if he was handcuffed then shot in his head,
All I know is dead bodies can't fuck with me again."
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I agree with what you have just said but "They" simply referred to the military and when i say they have turned them into monsters, you have to look at the torture being instigated in the prisons which was taught to them by the CIA instructors, that is after all what the reports conclude into the torture, they are not the acts of individuals but systematic torture whose techniques have been taught to them by experts in that field. I was referring to turning soldiers into monsters because despite the stresses and strains which the soldiers have already born the brunt of, they then make things ten times worse for them by forcing them to stay on the tour much longer, or forcing them to go back, extending the number of tours they have done. Finally when their commanders tell them everyone is an enemy and so to ascertain all enemies are dead, that you must kill everyone regarding of age and gender, then clearly they are turned into monsters.
You make a good point the savagery and horrors of vietnam were beyond words but this is much worse now because while these events and incidents were deplored, now they are justified and the perfect example being the torture, the response was well so what torture has always been a part of the dirty side of the game. That completely misses the bigger point, by justifying torture in such a public manner, it starts the torrid slippery slope into which morality is waved goodbye as it drowns under the weight of such depravity.
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All I got to say is don't join the military if you're looking to make money. They line of shit they sell you is indeed a line of shit.
And joining purely on his race and ethnic background makes you look like a misguided self hating racist.
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I agree with what you have just said but "They" simply referred to the military and when i say they have turned them into monsters, you have to look at the torture being instigated in the prisons which was taught to them by the CIA instructors, that is after all what the reports conclude into the torture, they are not the acts of individuals but systematic torture whose techniques have been taught to them by experts in that field. I was referring to turning soldiers into monsters because despite the stresses and strains which the soldiers have already born the brunt of, they then make things ten times worse for them by forcing them to stay on the tour much longer, or forcing them to go back, extending the number of tours they have done. Finally when their commanders tell them everyone is an enemy and so to ascertain all enemies are dead, that you must kill everyone regarding of age and gender, then clearly they are turned into monsters.
You make a good point the savagery and horrors of vietnam were beyond words but this is much worse now because while these events and incidents were deplored, now they are justified and the perfect example being the torture, the response was well so what torture has always been a part of the dirty side of the game. That completely misses the bigger point, by justifying torture in such a public manner, it starts the torrid slippery slope into which morality is waved goodbye as it drowns under the weight of such depravity.
Do you think this has EVER been any different? Every Western country in the world has these kinds of skeletons. The only thing is, some are better covered up than others. This is certainly no worse than Vietnam. The "stop-loss" policy you are referring to is not a result of an evil conspiracy; it's a result of the fact that we really don't have a viable solution to dealing with insurgencies yet, besides throwing lots of troops into the mix until a compromise between the factions (Badr Shi'a vs. Sadr Shi'a vs. Sunni vs. Kurds vs. whoever else), which, in the case of Iraq, is pretty much impossible.
Really, the conspiracy theories just don't make sense, no matter how much Prison Planet stuff you may read convincing you otherwise. The U.S. government has always been evil, but since Bush, the main difference is that the government has become evil and incompetent. Like going from truly fascist-type evil to something more like Dr. Evil-type evil. If the Bush administration were really as incredibly calculating, vicious, and intelligent as you believe, they would actually have a lid on this type of shit. What do you think Hitler or Stalin would have done with restless minorities? Do you really think they'd torture a handful of prisoners here and there to extract info and have the troops massacre a village here and there? Read about dekulakization and then you'll have an idea.
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I already know about dekulakisation, having read the book harvest of sorrow you are assuming too many things. It is you who is talking about "conspiracy theories" i am only talking on what is actually happening not on speculation. You completely and utterly missed the point things are worse now because unlike stalin, who was referred to as the compassionate uncle joe, now it's justifying torture, the bolsheviks never openly talked about what they were doing.
Now if you wanted to look at the actual conspiracy in Iraq in particular, it was disbanding all institutions and creating the fake photos, the fake stories of Al Queda connections, the weapons of mass destruction. Therefore I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, if you wish me to address something, you could make it a little more direct.
Also while we are on the subject of conspiracies, the PNAC document Rebuilding Americas Defences is a conspiracy is it not? and for all of this dismissive talk I bet you haven't once read it have you?
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I already know about dekulakisation, having read the book harvest of sorrow you are assuming too many things. It is you who is talking about "conspiracy theories" i am only talking on what is actually happening not on speculation. You completely and utterly missed the point things are worse now because unlike stalin, who was referred to as the compassionate uncle joe, now it's justifying torture, the bolsheviks never openly talked about what they were doing.
Now if you wanted to look at the actual conspiracy in Iraq in particular, it was disbanding all institutions and creating the fake photos, the fake stories of Al Queda connections, the weapons of mass destruction. Therefore I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, if you wish me to address something, you could make it a little more direct.
Also while we are on the subject of conspiracies, the PNAC document Rebuilding Americas Defences is a conspiracy is it not? and for all of this dismissive talk I bet you haven't once read it have you?
I've heard it and I know what it's about, but no, I have never read it.
You call that a "conspiracy"? It was anything but. Anyone who has ever read an encyclopedia article about Iraq knew that (1.) Saddam was a secular Baa'thist who was hated by the Sunni Islamists like Osama (not to mention the Sadrists and Badrists whom he had repressed for years), and (2.) The infrastructure for Saddam's WMD program had pretty much been smashed but that he needed people to THINK he still had it for domestic security (i.e. the way he put down the Kurds in 1988). You may also recall around April-May of 2003, Bush's people were also trying to get public support for military operations against Syria because they were claiming Saddam had fled there and might have stashed the WMDs there (which is more bullshit, because the Syrian branch of the Baa'thist Party have had a rivalry with the Iraqi branch for many decades now).
Did Bush take advantage of the fact that most Americans are dumb fucking Baptist redneck morons who think every Arab government is an "Islamic fundamentalist" regime? Yes. But is that a "conspiracy"? No. It's not a "conspiracy" when you're spouting nonsense that is easily discredited by 5 minutes of Internet research. Unfortunately, you seem to have this idea that nobody but you is capable of reading conspiracy sites online, so therefore, it's somehow a "conspiracy" when our notoriously retarded president thinks he's going to get away with lying and/or exaggerating facts in public.
I also don't know what you're talking about with the Bolsheviks because they openly talked of needing to cleanse "counter-revolutionary" elements and loved to incite people to rally violently against them. You cannot legitimately compare the American government to the Bolsheviks or Nazis because the level of cleansing is not at all comparable. When the U.S. and Iraqi Armies go into Sadr City, round up the entire population, and place them in concentration camps in order to weed out the insurgents...that's when you'd have something comparable.
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I give up lol you haven;t ever read the document and yet you dismiss a bigger conspiring against the frigging world not alone the people. I never said anything about an extermination policy akin to the bolsheviks either, I said and I repeat, there has NEVER been a time where openly governments are trying to sell people that torture is a good thing. Yes I do call a a conspiracy to create lies which leads to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, yes I call it a conspiracy to disband every government institution knowing the chaos it would bring.
I am done responding to you when you have never even read the central think tank document to this all though, so keep ranting about me being a "conspiracy theorist" if you like, it really doesn't matter.
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I give up lol you haven;t ever read the document and yet you dismiss a bigger conspiring against the frigging world not alone the people. I never said anything about an extermination policy akin to the bolsheviks either, I said and I repeat, there has NEVER been a time where openly governments are trying to sell people that torture is a good thing. Yes I do call a a conspiracy to create lies which leads to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, yes I call it a conspiracy to disband every government institution knowing the chaos it would bring.
I am done responding to you when you have never even read the central think tank document to this all though, so keep ranting about me being a "conspiracy theorist" if you like, it really doesn't matter.
I never said you did. Only that you can't make the comparison unless such a policy exists.
I don't think anyone really accepts that torture is a good thing, just as nobody really accepted the rationale for invading Iraq. I think many people just kind of accept the hopelessness that tends to pervade to the point where they don't care. And for what it's worth, the average American doesn't find the average insurgent in Iraq to be all that sympathetic. I mean, these are people who cut off heads and want to spread a totalitarian ideology that's every bit as fucked up as fascism and Marxism.
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I reackon you are both right, there is often no need for a formal conspiracy because people are incredibly predictable and will usually play their part.
As I said, i got friends in the army and there is no secret about war, it changes people with or without orders from the top.
However, i still think there are some think-tanks out there constantly going through possible future scenarios, working ever to shape the future, like the Princess Diana car crash, that shit was murder IMO. Can you imagine her alive today with an Arab husband? It would've made things difficult for the military to do what they have done since then without her dead, she wouldve been an obstacle culturally and media wise. In all my glorious paranoia, I believe there are mutherfuckers out there doing the little things that alter the flow of history...
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For sure think tanks have that objective in mind, they are actively mapping out scenarios for every aspect of politics, focus groups are created with the intention in mind of studying analysing and assessing peoples mind frame to those scenarios, to those individual politicians, to particular policies, to particular social groups etc. It's no secret that political groups employs psychologists to map out for them and draw them a picture of where the political landscape lies.
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If you're honestly thinking about joining the Navy for money, and getting out in 3 or 4 years, you shouldn't pursue a military career at all. The pay in the Navy sucks when you first enlist, and from the pay grades of E-1 to E-4, you have to live on military base, and advancing up to an E-5 takes anywhere between 8 and 13 years, depending on your conduct, aptitude, and performance. But if you do want to join, I would reccommend Nurse Corps, which is a slack job, but they give you free college education, and you only have to serve 4 to 6 years to get an honorable discharge