West Coast Connection Forum
Lifestyle => Sports & Entertainment => Topic started by: Now_Im_Not_Banned on December 08, 2008, 04:36:37 AM
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I've been sayin it since dy 1 and mufuckaz on this site used to diss me over it, claiming I was a "bias Suns hater" and what not...anyways, it's pretty crystal clear when you look at shit in retrospect...
Steve Nash was never MVP material
Boris Diaw was never the most improved player of the year
Shawn Marion was never close to a superstar
Amare Stoudemire was never a 1st Team All-NBA caliber player
Leandro Barbosa was never a 6th man of the year
YALL WERE FOOLED...PHOENIX SUNS WERE NEVER CONTENDERS.
Barkley knows whatsup:
“What all these players are learning is that they have all been a figment of (former Suns coach) Mike D’Antoni’s system. You know Shawn Marion, I tried to tell him, ‘You’re a terrific player but you’re not a great player. Stay here in Phoenix and relax instead of going and saying you want to be the man.’... Now you can’t even find him with a GPS.”
LOL!
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lol at barkley, is there anything that guy wont say? but i disagree with the majority of what you posted, phoenix have been one of the best teams in the west over the last 5 years, and if not for the horry bump, woulda probabley made it to the finals. where they would of quite easily dispatched the cavs.
its kind of like saying kobe was nothing when not in phil jacksons offence, or saying sheed wallace was nothing when not in larry browns offence. its obvious some players prefer some systems and are well skilled for certain systems.
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It's just a faulty system and there's no way any team can ever win a championship with pure offense. no matter how "close" they came, the team overachieved in the regular season and was defeated by tactical coaches come playoff time EVERY SINGLE TIME...clearly, your example is not the same...D'Antoni's unique system unquestionably boosted stats, which caused players on the team to be ranked much higher than their worth by ignorant fans. James Jones, Tim Thomas, Jim Jackson, Kurt Thomas...more muthafuckaz who's career diminished after leaving Phoenix.
It's happening all over again in New York. :-X
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im not saying that there stats wernt overblown, of course they were. If a team plays at a higher pace and has more possesions than an avergae team then of course there stats are going to be somewhat inflated. Prime example of this is nash assist numbers this year compared to years past. But i think as a team they were still a bloody good team, making the playoffs in the west over the last 5 years is hard enough but making the west finals and knocking on the door of the finals was impressive IMO. They played some downright good bball at times and as a fan of the whole NBA i feel privalged to watch a team like that over the last couple of years, very pleasing on the eye.
and i maintain that if it wasnt for some unlucky injuries (joe johnson eye injury in 2005 i think it was) and of course the bench fracas I really believe that phoenix would of won a championship. but of course they didnt so everyone will say how bad they were at x, y and z.
at the end of the day only 1 team can win a championship every year, that not only takes determination but there is luck inolved too. So i think making the playoffs and getting as far as they did in the last 5 years is an achievement in itself and should be praised and not disected like they didnt have what it takes, because you know what 29 other teams didnt have what it takes either.
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So if the triangle is a good system that makes teams winning and players succeed, do those players actually suck because they are executing a system that is designed that way?
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So if the triangle is a good system that makes teams winning and players succeed, do those players actually suck because they are executing a system that is designed that way?
Are you retarded? The triangle is a real basketball system...it doesn't inflate stats, because it's traditional basketball, not some bullshit excuse for streetball on an NBA level. D'Antoni's system not only made the players within the system look better (to dudes who judge basketball by stats aka the majority of this board), but it also made the opposing players look better as well. You ever check the average stats of Phoenix opponents over the past few years? Their stats are ALWAYS much higher. Golden State and New York are doing the same shit right now. Fast-pace offense with no defense has always been and will always be a fluke...comparing it to the triangle shows me how much simple basketball knowledge you lack.
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im not saying that there stats wernt overblown, of course they were. If a team plays at a higher pace and has more possesions than an avergae team then of course there stats are going to be somewhat inflated. Prime example of this is nash assist numbers this year compared to years past. But i think as a team they were still a bloody good team, making the playoffs in the west over the last 5 years is hard enough but making the west finals and knocking on the door of the finals was impressive IMO. They played some downright good bball at times and as a fan of the whole NBA i feel privalged to watch a team like that over the last couple of years, very pleasing on the eye.
and i maintain that if it wasnt for some unlucky injuries (joe johnson eye injury in 2005 i think it was) and of course the bench fracas I really believe that phoenix would of won a championship. but of course they didnt so everyone will say how bad they were at x, y and z.
at the end of the day only 1 team can win a championship every year, that not only takes determination but there is luck inolved too. So i think making the playoffs and getting as far as they did in the last 5 years is an achievement in itself and should be praised and not disected like they didnt have what it takes, because you know what 29 other teams didnt have what it takes either.
they were a good regular season team...but when the playoff atmosphere rolled along and teams started taking the game possession by possession, their true colors showed and they didn't look as good. that means the system is a fluke...sure, shit was entertaining, but it's no way to play basketball at an NBA level, and the Phoenix Suns who were always amongst the top teams in the west in the regular season, but never did the same damage in the playoffs=proof. you can claim they woulda and shoulda won a championship, but the point is that they didn't, and I really never saw them having a chance from the moment D'Antoni's system was implemented...PeACe
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So if the triangle is a good system that makes teams winning and players succeed, do those players actually suck because they are executing a system that is designed that way?
Are you retarded? The triangle is a real basketball system...it doesn't inflate stats, because it's traditional basketball, not some bullshit excuse for streetball on an NBA level. D'Antoni's system not only made the players within the system look better (to dudes who judge basketball by stats aka the majority of this board), but it also made the opposing players look better as well. You ever check the average stats of Phoenix opponents over the past few years? Their stats are ALWAYS much higher. Golden State and New York are doing the same shit right now. Fast-pace offense with no defense has always been and will always be a fluke...comparing it to the triangle shows me how much simple basketball knowledge you lack.
I'm not saying it's anything like the triangle. I just apply your twisted logic to show you how full of shit you are, retard.
1) There's a good chance that the Suns win the title if Horry doesn't bump Nash
2) The Suns were better with D'Antoni. I'm not talking about their individual stats, I'm talking about the success of the team.
3) The Knicks are better with D'Antoni. Again, as a team.
Everybody knows that the system was based on not running out the clock, therefore having many possessions, while focusing on offense and therefore playing softer defense. Do you honestly think it's just you figuring that stuff out, dumbass?
So if that system made Phx and NY better, how is D'Antoni wrong while using it? And more importantly, how do the Suns players suck because they executed it really well?
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So if the triangle is a good system that makes teams winning and players succeed, do those players actually suck because they are executing a system that is designed that way?
Are you retarded? The triangle is a real basketball system...it doesn't inflate stats, because it's traditional basketball, not some bullshit excuse for streetball on an NBA level. D'Antoni's system not only made the players within the system look better (to dudes who judge basketball by stats aka the majority of this board), but it also made the opposing players look better as well. You ever check the average stats of Phoenix opponents over the past few years? Their stats are ALWAYS much higher. Golden State and New York are doing the same shit right now. Fast-pace offense with no defense has always been and will always be a fluke...comparing it to the triangle shows me how much simple basketball knowledge you lack.
I'm not saying it's anything like the triangle. I just apply your twisted logic to show you how full of shit you are, retard.
1) There's a good chance that the Suns win the title if Horry doesn't bump Nash
2) The Suns were better with D'Antoni. I'm not talking about their individual stats, I'm talking about the success of the team.
3) The Knicks are better with D'Antoni. Again, as a team.
Everybody knows that the system was based on not running out the clock, therefore having many possessions, while focusing on offense and therefore playing softer defense. Do you honestly think it's just you figuring that stuff out, dumbass?
So if that system made Phx and NY better, how is D'Antoni wrong while using it? And more importantly, how do the Suns players suck because they executed it really well?
YOU ARE AN IDIOT AND YOUR ANALOGY MAKES NO SENSE.
TRIANGLE DOES NOT INFLATE STATS, BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT GOING AGAINST THE BASKETBALL LOGIC OF MAXIMIZING YOUR POSSESSION BY SHOOTING WITHIN 7 SECONDS OF THE SHOT CLOCK.
1.Suns woulda never won the title with that system, regardless of what you claim.
2.Suns overachieved in D'Antoni's system IN THE REGULAR SEASON, because it's designed to throw teams off-guard, but teams slow down in the playoff atmosphere...Terry Porter isn't a top-tier coach and their roster is much weaker than it's been in past years. common sense, my dude.
3.Again, the system makes your team look better in the REGULAR SEASON. :stupid:
I know this theory isn't groundbreaking, but how come people aren't coming out and saying "oh, Boris Diaw is garbage, that system made him look good" or "oh, Nash shoulda' never won those MVPs, he's a 2nd option on any other team"...again, you are the idiot.
D'Antoni is wrong for using it because it's not real basketball and because it wont win shit against teams with a true game-plan.
Any player placed within that system will look better, it's not about how well they execute it.
7even...I am highly disappointed in you. I honestly thought you were one of the better ones on here.
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So if the triangle is a good system that makes teams winning and players succeed, do those players actually suck because they are executing a system that is designed that way?
Are you retarded? The triangle is a real basketball system...it doesn't inflate stats, because it's traditional basketball, not some bullshit excuse for streetball on an NBA level. D'Antoni's system not only made the players within the system look better (to dudes who judge basketball by stats aka the majority of this board), but it also made the opposing players look better as well. You ever check the average stats of Phoenix opponents over the past few years? Their stats are ALWAYS much higher. Golden State and New York are doing the same shit right now. Fast-pace offense with no defense has always been and will always be a fluke...comparing it to the triangle shows me how much simple basketball knowledge you lack.
I'm not saying it's anything like the triangle. I just apply your twisted logic to show you how full of shit you are, retard.
1) There's a good chance that the Suns win the title if Horry doesn't bump Nash
2) The Suns were better with D'Antoni. I'm not talking about their individual stats, I'm talking about the success of the team.
3) The Knicks are better with D'Antoni. Again, as a team.
Everybody knows that the system was based on not running out the clock, therefore having many possessions, while focusing on offense and therefore playing softer defense. Do you honestly think it's just you figuring that stuff out, dumbass?
So if that system made Phx and NY better, how is D'Antoni wrong while using it? And more importantly, how do the Suns players suck because they executed it really well?
YOU ARE AN IDIOT AND YOUR ANALOGY MAKES NO SENSE.
TRIANGLE DOES NOT INFLATE STATS, BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT GOING AGAINST THE BASKETBALL LOGIC OF MAXIMIZING YOUR POSSESSION BY SHOOTING WITHIN 7 SECONDS OF THE SHOT CLOCK.
1.Suns woulda never won the title with that system, regardless of what you claim.
2.Suns overachieved in D'Antoni's system IN THE REGULAR SEASON, because it's designed to throw teams off-guard, but teams slow down in the playoff atmosphere...Terry Porter isn't a top-tier coach and their roster is much weaker than it's been in past years. common sense, my dude.
3.Again, the system makes your team look better in the REGULAR SEASON. :stupid:
I know this theory isn't groundbreaking, but how come people aren't coming out and saying "oh, Boris Diaw is garbage, that system made him look good" or "oh, Nash shoulda' never won those MVPs, he's a 2nd option on any other team"...again, you are the idiot.
D'Antoni is wrong for using it because it's not real basketball and because it wont win shit against teams with a true game-plan.
Any player placed within that system will look better, it's not about how well they execute it.
7even...I am highly disappointed in you. I honestly thought you were one of the better ones on here.
Where did I say that the triangle is about inflating stats? Absolutely nowhere.
The Knicks have a scrub team, yet are much better than they used to be.
Of course the Knicks won't win a championship. Of course Phoenix didn't win the championship.
It's your ridiculous mind-set that anything less than the championship makes you worthless. Probably because you are a spoiled ass Laker-Fan.
Phoenix beat teams in the playoffs. They even gave the Spurs a run for their money, no argument there. So, I'd say they "won shit". Didn't those teams have a true game plan? The Lakers, under Phil Jackson, with the triangle offense, no true game plan? If you say so.
Certain players fit more in certain systems than in others. That's just normal. Butler looks way better with the Wizards than with the Lakers. Davis looked way better with Golden State than with the Clippers. Nash looked better with the Suns than with the Mavs. Not anything crazy about that.
And I'm no longer behaving like "one of the better ones" because you absolutely don't deserve it.
I'm not going to be a nice guy towards assholes.
And for the record, with all the biased ass bold and twisted statements you made on here, you should not ask so many people if they are retarded, or call them "genius", "idiot" or "dumb", especially not when you are talking to me.
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It's your ridiculous mind-set that anything less than the championship makes you worthless. Probably because you are a spoiled ass Laker-Fan.
That's probably it...Laker fans have been spoiled to have some of the greatest dynasties of all time and have grown to expect nothing less than a championship.
Phoenix beat teams in the playoffs. They even gave the Spurs a run for their money, no argument there. So, I'd say they "won shit". Didn't those teams have a true game plan? The Lakers, under Phil Jackson, with the triangle offense, no true game plan? If you say so.
Certain players fit more in certain systems than in others. That's just normal. Butler looks way better with the Wizards than with the Lakers. Davis looked way better with Golden State than with the Clippers. Nash looked better with the Suns than with the Mavs. Not anything crazy about that.
And I'm no longer behaving like "one of the better ones" because you absolutely don't deserve it.
I'm not going to be a nice guy towards assholes.
And for the record, with all the biased ass bold and twisted statements you made on here, you should not ask so many people if they are retarded, or call them "genius", "idiot" or "dumb", especially not when you are talking to me.
If you knew the first thing about the fundamentals of basketball, you would agree with my points instead of acting a jackass and making yourself look like a total idiot in the process. Maximizing yourself on one end of the court and not playing the other is NOT a way to play basketball, any real coach will tell you this, on any level of basketball. The NBA was very weak in the Suns' golden era (04-07) and they were picked to come out of the west a couple times, but never made it... they almost got upset by the "much weaker" Lakers and Clippers. LOL. The system is a fluke. Coaches like Don Nelson and Mike D'Antoni might look good in the regular season when theyre running their asses off against every team, but when it comes down to the real deal, YOU'LL ALWAYS LOSE. Calm your ass down, this is common basketball ideology...PeACe
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Amare Stoudemire was never a 1st Team All-NBA caliber player
I dont care about the rest cuz that is the truth...but Amare is a top player...dude still gets about 8 rebounds a game and is top 10 in scoring and FG% so yes...he's 1st Team All NBA caliber player
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So do you think the Suns would have won a couple Championships with Porter as their coach during 04-07? I certainly don't. The Celtics almost got upset by the "much weaker" Hawks. The Lakers got upset by the "much weaker" Pistons. The Mavericks got upset by the "much weaker" Warriors. The Lakers got kicked out of the arena by the "weaker" Celtics.
No matter how you slice it, the Suns were not as much of a failure as you make em out to be, and neither is the system, if you use it with the right players. Not all players excel in serious half court basketball. Would you rather just plain suck and never win a title, or be critically acclaimed, sell-out arenas, get MVP trophies, have 60+win seasons, go deep into the playoffs and never win a title? I'd pick the latter.
Either way, you should check yourself cause all it took for you to write entire passages in caps and to tell me that you are "highly disappointed" was me being just as condescending as you regularly are.
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It's just a faulty system and there's no way any team can ever win a championship with pure offense. no matter how "close" they came, the team overachieved in the regular season and was defeated by tactical coaches come playoff time EVERY SINGLE TIME...clearly, your example is not the same...D'Antoni's unique system unquestionably boosted stats, which caused players on the team to be ranked much higher than their worth by ignorant fans. James Jones, Tim Thomas, Jim Jackson, Kurt Thomas...more muthafuckaz who's career diminished after leaving Phoenix.
It's happening all over again in New York. :-X
TRADE HARRINGTON FOR LEBRON AND DAVID LEE FOR BOSH AND DUHON FOR CP3 WHILE THEYRE VALUES ARE STILL HIGH!!!
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Amare Stoudemire was never a 1st Team All-NBA caliber player
I dont care about the rest cuz that is the truth...but Amare is a top player...dude still gets about 8 rebounds a game and is top 10 in scoring and FG% so yes...he's 1st Team All NBA caliber player
LOL...Amare made 1st team as a center. You really think he's better than Dwight, Yao, Bosh, etc.? Face it, he made 1st Team All-NBA because he was beasting in stats, thanks to D'Antoni's system. Not saying he's not good, but his stats are down across the board and he's a horrible defender. No way he woulda' made 1st team without the increase from the system...PeACe
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It's just a faulty system and there's no way any team can ever win a championship with pure offense. no matter how "close" they came, the team overachieved in the regular season and was defeated by tactical coaches come playoff time EVERY SINGLE TIME...clearly, your example is not the same...D'Antoni's unique system unquestionably boosted stats, which caused players on the team to be ranked much higher than their worth by ignorant fans. James Jones, Tim Thomas, Jim Jackson, Kurt Thomas...more muthafuckaz who's career diminished after leaving Phoenix.
It's happening all over again in New York. :-X
TRADE HARRINGTON FOR LEBRON AND DAVID LEE FOR BOSH AND DUHON FOR CP3 WHILE THEYRE VALUES ARE STILL HIGH!!!
LOL..but for real though,, notice how all three of the players you just mentioned have an increased value since playing for the system.
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why do you hate Dantoni if he makes people into stars?
btw- nash is alot older now
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So do you think the Suns would have won a couple Championships with Porter as their coach during 04-07? I certainly don't. The Celtics almost got upset by the "much weaker" Hawks. The Lakers got upset by the "much weaker" Pistons. The Mavericks got upset by the "much weaker" Warriors. The Lakers got kicked out of the arena by the "weaker" Celtics.
No matter how you slice it, the Suns were not as much of a failure as you make em out to be, and neither is the system, if you use it with the right players. Not all players excel in serious half court basketball. Would you rather just plain suck and never win a title, or be critically acclaimed, sell-out arenas, get MVP trophies, have 60+win seasons, go deep into the playoffs and never win a title? I'd pick the latter.
Either way, you should check yourself cause all it took for you to write entire passages in caps and to tell me that you are "highly disappointed" was me being just as condescending as you regularly are.
Again, the Suns were picked to win the west and even the championship on several occasions. How were they not a failure? They had the "MVP", "Most Improved Player", "6th Man", 2 "All-NBA 1st-Team", "All-NBA 3rd-Team", etc. etc.
What are you trying to disagree with? The fact that the Suns system makes players appear to be better or the fact that it's not a good system?? LOL
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why do you hate Dantoni if he makes people into stars?
btw- nash is alot older now
He doesn't make them into stars...he makes them appear as stars. You really think Nash is a back-to-back MVP? If he is, the league is truly sad. It's an illusion.
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So if the triangle is a good system that makes teams winning and players succeed, do those players actually suck because they are executing a system that is designed that way?
Honestly, yes.
Look at Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, Brian Cook, and Devean George now. I was a huge advocate of Luke Walton a few years ago but to be real theres no way in hell he would've ever averaged 15/5/5 on another team. Hell you can even add Gasol to that list, look at how much his field goal percentage was boosted by after he came to the Lakers. Playing with a great player (Kobe, Nash) in a team offense will ALWAYS benefit the guys around them. I can understand why some people don't like D'antoni's system but it was effective. Wouly you rather win 60 games every year and lose in the conference finals or know that after the 82nd game it was time for summer break?
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^To tell you the truth, I'd rather miss the playoffs and get a lottery pick (ala Andrew Bynum) than make the playoffs and flop...
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making the west finals is not a fluke no matter how you try and explain it. i agree that during the regular season they were better than in the playoffs but they were still bettter than 95% of the league, and i say it again 29 other teams didnt win the title either.
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making the west finals is not a fluke no matter how you try and explain it. i agree that during the regular season they were better than in the playoffs but they were still bettter than 95% of the league, and i say it again 29 other teams didnt win the title either.
29 other teams weren't predicted to win the title...get it?
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Suns were always garbage
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What are you trying to disagree with? The fact that the Suns system makes players appear to be better or the fact that it's not a good system?? LOL
1) You put it too negatively. Players look better, yes. But how is that negative? They excel better in that system. Not everyone does, of course. Would you rather be a bum and never win anything or be "Most Improved", get a nice contract and go to the West Finals?
The fact that the system inflates the numbers is not lost on anyone. If the team averages by far the most points, of course their stats inflate, that is really simple logic that does not have to be "acknowledged" to be proven noticed.
2) How good the system is depends on the players and the franchise you use it with. As for the Suns or the Knicks, it was/is a good system.
^To tell you the truth, I'd rather miss the playoffs and get a lottery pick (ala Andrew Bynum) than make the playoffs and flop...
That's because you are a spoiled Laker-Fan, who is all about his franchise building dynasties and winning titles. The Suns are not.
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in none of the m years when phoenix were winning 50+ games were they classed as the favourites going into the season, the likes of detroit and san antonio and even dallas were classed as the favourites back then. If anything phoenix over-achieved not under-achieved.
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YALL WERE FOOLED...
:nawty:
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in none of the m years when phoenix were winning 50+ games were they classed as the favourites going into the season, the likes of detroit and san antonio and even dallas were classed as the favourites back then. If anything phoenix over-achieved not under-achieved.
naah, man...the suns were picked to win the west by many and even the championship by some. :-X
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What are you trying to disagree with? The fact that the Suns system makes players appear to be better or the fact that it's not a good system?? LOL
1) You put it too negatively. Players look better, yes. But how is that negative? They excel better in that system. Not everyone does, of course. Would you rather be a bum and never win anything or be "Most Improved", get a nice contract and go to the West Finals?
The fact that the system inflates the numbers is not lost on anyone. If the team averages by far the most points, of course their stats inflate, that is really simple logic that does not have to be "acknowledged" to be proven noticed.
2) How good the system is depends on the players and the franchise you use it with. As for the Suns or the Knicks, it was/is a good system.
^To tell you the truth, I'd rather miss the playoffs and get a lottery pick (ala Andrew Bynum) than make the playoffs and flop...
That's because you are a spoiled Laker-Fan, who is all about his franchise building dynasties and winning titles. The Suns are not.
The fact that it inflates their stats is the reason they win MVPS and Most Improved Players...dont you get it? not because they ARE the MVP or Most Improved Player material, but because it creates a FALSE illusion brought upon by the inflated stats...you think it's a good thing that the stats are inflated? THE REASON THE STATS ARE INFLATED IS LARGELY IN PART TO THEM PLAYING NO DEFENSE. Not only are their stats inflated, but so are the stats of the opponents they play against...HOW CAN THAT BE A GOOD THING? Creating false illusions for not only yourself, but for your opponents as well...There's a reason players have their biggest nights statisticwise against teams like the Suns, Warriors, and now the Knicks...PeACe
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The Suns would probably have been worse with another system. It's that simple.
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The Suns would probably have been worse with another system. It's that simple.
they look way more mature now, and their roster isn't half as good as it was...