West Coast Connection Forum
Lifestyle => Train of Thought => Topic started by: Real American on December 08, 2005, 06:47:42 PM
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He also denied the Holocaust happened. We are talking about the preisdent of a country saying these things.
http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyid=2005-12-08T194147Z_01_RID850121_RTRUKOC_0_US-MIDEAST-IRAN-AHMADINEJAD.xml&rpc=22
Iran president expresses doubt holocaust happened
Thu Dec 8, 2005 2:42 PM ET By Paul Hughes
TEHRAN (Reuters) - Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on Thursday expressed doubt the Holocaust took place and suggested the Jewish state of Israel be moved to Europe.
His comments, reported by Iran's official IRNA news agency from a news conference he gave in the Saudi Arabian city of Mecca, follow his call in October for Israel to be "wiped off the map", which sparked widespread international outrage.
The latest comments also provoked quick condemnation. German Chancellor Angela Merkel called them "totally unacceptable" and British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw said "I condemn them unreservedly. They have no place in civilized political debate."
Ahmadinejad was quoted by IRNA as saying: "Some European countries insist on saying that Hitler killed millions of innocent Jews in furnaces and they insist on it to the extent that if anyone proves something contrary to that they condemn that person and throw them in jail."
"Although we don't accept this claim, if we suppose it is true, our question for the Europeans is: is the killing of innocent Jewish people by Hitler the reason for their support to the occupiers of Jerusalem?" he said.
"If the Europeans are honest they should give some of their provinces in Europe -- like in Germany, Austria or other countries -- to the Zionists and the Zionists can establish their state in Europe. You offer part of Europe and we will support it."
The Nazis killed some 6 million Jews during their 1933-1945 rule. Ahmadinejad's remarks drew swift rebukes from Israel and Washington.
ISRAEL, WASHINGTON RESPOND
Raanan Gissin, a spokesman for Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, said in Tel Aviv Ahmadinejad was voicing "the consensus that exists in many circles in the Arab world that the Jewish people ... do not have the right to establish a Jewish, democratic state in their ancestral homeland".
"Just to remind Mr. Ahmadinejad, we've been here long before his ancestors were here," Gissin said. "Therefore, we have a birthright to be here in the land of our forefathers and to live here. Thank God we have the capability to deter and to prevent such a statement from becoming a reality."
Deputy U.S. State Department spokesman Adam Ereli called the remarks "appalling and reprehensible". Continued ...
"They certainly don't inspire hope among any of us in the international community that the government in Iran is prepared to engage as a responsible member of the community," he said.
A news conference with French President Jacques Chirac near Berlin, Merkel also said: "With our historical responsibility in mind, I can only say that we reject them (Ahmadinejad's comments) in the harshest possible terms.
"We will do everything to make it clear that Israel's right to existence is in no way endangered. I am firmly convinced that a majority in the international community has a similar opinion on this issue," she said. Chirac said he agreed completely.
Religious hardliners in Iran do not publicly deny the Holocaust occurred but say its scale has been exaggerated to justify the creation of Israel and continued Western support for it.
Close allies when Iran was ruled by the U.S.-backed Shah, Iran and Israel have become implacable foes since Iran's 1979 Islamic revolution.
Israel accuses Iran of giving arms and funding to militant Palestinian groups such as Islamic Jihad and of building nuclear weapons. Iran denies the charges.
Tehran calls Israel a "terrorist state" and has developed missiles which can reach it. It says it would use them if Israel, itself believed to be nuclear armed, tried to bomb Iranian nuclear facilities.
(Additional reporting by Jeffrey Heller in Jerusalem)
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lol
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He's a puppet of the clergy
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LMAO this guys hilarious, first I was kinda mad at him and thought he was stupid but now I just look at the bright side, the shit he says is hilarious, lol
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lol @ moving Israel. Pure comedy. I don't think Jews are too fond of Europe since 1939 anyways
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the whole middle eastern region should be converted to a giant desert prison that will hold the world's convicts. all the "domesticated citizens" should be shipped to Europe.
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sounds like iran goin down... bad luck syria
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i've always thought israel shud have never been created, jews shudda been given a part of germeny, but moving a country 50 years on thats a joke
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thats over simplifying things?
ya do understand the complications in the fact that the land was inhabited by jews before christianity and islam were even invented..
the 3 faiths share claims to holy places controllled by the others.. its because of these 3 religions there will never be peace in the middle east
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thats over simplifying things?
ya do understand the complications in the fact that the land was inhabited by jews before christianity and islam were even invented..
the 3 faiths share claims to holy places controllled by the others.. its because of these 3 religions there will never be peace in the middle east
yes i know that but they hadn't been there for 2000 years well not in large numbers anyway, things change.
there cud be peace if people could learn to share but i doubt that'll ever happen, but if you go back in time before jews start coming back people lived together there peacefully jews muslims and christians
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give america back to the natives then talk shit
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who's that aimed at..? me and don rizzle are brits..
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thats a general post
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i've always thought israel shud have never been created, jews shudda been given a part of germeny
I agree... but "god gave them the land" and there were "no people living on that land"... and i dunno what other bullshit these igeezys come up with to justify their occupation, terrorism, etc.
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well all whites in the us move back to europe,all blacks in th us move back to africa .
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Or maybe he could share some of his land with Palestinian Arabs....Since he's into Arab unity and all...
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Iran ain't an arabic country,know we can see how smart u are
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Problems reading my man?
Iran funds terrorist groups like Fatah,Hamas, Jihad,Hizballah...Are you sayin that its leader opposes Arab Unity? lol
It's quite diverse as far as ethnic groups go with the majority of Persians. It doesn't change the fact it is a Radical Muslim Country that supports Pan-Arabism(removal of Israel in order to provide Arab Unity).
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Problems reading my man?
Iran funds terrorist groups like Fatah,Hamas, Jihad,Hizballah...Are you sayin that its leader opposes Arab Unity? lol
It's quite diverse as far as ethnic groups go with the majority of Persians. It doesn't change the fact it is a Radical Muslim Country that supports Pan-Arabism(removal of Israel in order to provide Arab Unity).
persia was always separted from arabic countries,they weren't even united with arabs in the ottamon empire
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Problems reading my man?
Iran funds terrorist groups like Fatah,Hamas, Jihad,Hizballah...Are you sayin that its leader opposes Arab Unity? lol
It's quite diverse as far as ethnic groups go with the majority of Persians. It doesn't change the fact it is a Radical Muslim Country that supports Pan-Arabism(removal of Israel in order to provide Arab Unity).
persia was always separted from arabic countries,they weren't even united with arabs in the ottamon empire
So? things chage, leaderships get overthrown(Like in Iran in 79 if I remember correctly),
And even if Iran didn't join the United Arab Empire it would still be fond of its existence and right now it is furthering this agenda.
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And even if Iran didn't join the United Arab Empire it would still be fond of its existence and right now it is furthering this agenda.
A typical IGeezy post... no facts, just his own retarded assumptions... at least it's better than him posting another person's biased opinion...
I have a few practice SAT questions for yall.. the analogies are always a little tricky...
Superman : Kryptonite
Zionists : Facts
Horses : Wings
Zionists : Common Sense
Black : White
Zionist Claims : Truth
Einstein : Forrest Gump
Jamal : IGeezy
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wat did i just hear
Problems reading my man?
Iran funds terrorist groups like Fatah,Hamas, Jihad,Hizballah...Are you sayin that its leader opposes Arab Unity? lol
It's quite diverse as far as ethnic groups go with the majority of Persians. It doesn't change the fact it is a Radical Muslim Country that supports Pan-Arabism(removal of Israel in order to provide Arab Unity).
persia was always separted from arabic countries,they weren't even united with arabs in the ottamon empire
So? things chage, leaderships get overthrown(Like in Iran in 79 if I remember correctly),
And even if Iran didn't join the United Arab Empire it would still be fond of its existence and right now it is furthering this agenda.
so all the bullshit about ur ancestors living there 2000 years ago isn't valid
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wat did i just hear
Problems reading my man?
Iran funds terrorist groups like Fatah,Hamas, Jihad,Hizballah...Are you sayin that its leader opposes Arab Unity? lol
It's quite diverse as far as ethnic groups go with the majority of Persians. It doesn't change the fact it is a Radical Muslim Country that supports Pan-Arabism(removal of Israel in order to provide Arab Unity).
persia was always separted from arabic countries,they weren't even united with arabs in the ottamon empire
So? things chage, leaderships get overthrown(Like in Iran in 79 if I remember correctly),
And even if Iran didn't join the United Arab Empire it would still be fond of its existence and right now it is furthering this agenda.
so all the bullshit about ur ancestors living there 2000 years ago isn't valid
The Europeans' ancestors didn't even live there... the majority of Israelis, or Jews in general, are Ashkenazi Jews... and a lot of em descendants of the Khazzar tribe, which converted to Judaism around the 8th century... the Goldsteins and Steinbergs have no claim to Palestine... the Jews who were among the indigenous population before the Zionists' arrival do... and they made up about 5-10% of the population...
Zionist ideology is complete bullshit... they admit themselves that they can't succeed without terrorism and propaganda... they admit it, but the chumps supporting them won't... it's kinda funny but sad when you think about these sheepish tools.. its like Bush admitting he fucked up, and CWalker's Polish ass or Trauma's brotherfucking chumpass saying "no he didn't"... I pity these fools
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just to prove that zionists have committed acts and tried to have the blame be put on muslims... which is the exact thing Igeezy claims the Arabs do... yet he is a blind sheep who fails to see the flaws of the terrorist government and zionists extremists he supports... so he falls victim to the propaganda he's fed in his beloved illegal state of israel..
this is just 1 example... i can get into what the zionists did during the holocaust.. what the zionists did to other jews in arab states... the lavon affair as someone already mentioned... etc... who knows what other shit they've done that has already been blamed on muslims...
JACKSONVILLE, Florida (CNN) -- An Orthodox Jewish man has been accused of planting a pipe bomb in a synagogue hours before a speech by former Israeli Prime Minister Shimon Peres and blaming the act on an Islamic group.
Harry Shapiro, a 31-year-old former kosher butcher and theological student, was charged Tuesday with placing a destructive device and making a bomb threat. Police were searching his home again Wednesday.
Shapiro called 911 with a bomb threat on February 13, the day Peres spoke at the Jacksonville Jewish Center before 1,500 people, police said. The caller identified himself as "the American fringe of Islamic Jihad."
Police searched the building before the speech, but the bomb was not found and the speech went on without incident. Nine days after the speech, three children attending a luncheon after a bat mitzvah found the bomb in a hallway behind the temple's sanctuary.
http://www.cnn.com/US/9702/26/briefs/synagogue.html
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And even if Iran didn't join the United Arab Empire it would still be fond of its existence and right now it is furthering this agenda.
A typical IGeezy post... no facts, just his own retarded assumptions... at least it's better than him posting another person's biased opinion...
I have a few practice SAT questions for yall.. the analogies are always a little tricky...
Superman : Kryptonite
Zionists : Facts
Horses : Wings
Zionists : Common Sense
Black : White
Zionist Claims : Truth
Einstein : Forrest Gump
Jamal : IGeezy
lol Very Smart Jamal, really I'm in such an awe of you now.
When you can't maintain an argument based on logic you resort to personal remarks not realizing how funny you make yourself look.
I've just stated the fact Iran funds like 4 major terrorist groups that seek to destroy Israel( by agenda) and you keep coming with "A typical IGeezy post... no facts, just his own retarded assumptions..."
I think you spent more time coming up with SAT joke rather then actually thinking about the issue at hand.
Keep It Up.
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well iran denied that ,a thing ur country does a lot.in ur way of saying it anti-islamic propganda
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who knows what other shit they've done that has already been blamed on muslims...
no facts, just his own retarded assumptions
You're right, I'm a propaganda victim^ you're the objective one.
I'm sorry, I want Israel to exist, it must be foul right?
I guess Palestinian Self Determination and Arab Unity are in no way contradictions then, right?
I guess terrorism can be justified when its against Jews or Israelis, And so can Anti-Semitism, being that Jews are capable of such things like the Lavon Affair and Dair Yasin.
I guess autocracy isn't that bad for Muslims right? Israel is much more harmful to the world than let's say Iran, Palestinian Autonomy, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria etc'
I guess Jamal is not brainwashed, especially now that he brought that 100% factual claim as for the Khazzar tribes(straight from an Egyptian media site-where I last saw this), because I bet Yaser Arafat was directly related to the Canaanites or to Ishmael?
^
I bet Hitler made a distinction during the holocaust between real Jews and pseudo-Jews.
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nah i've just realized that there's no point in arguing with somebody who doesn't accept facts as facts and who doesn't use common sense... it's pointless...
no terrorism can't be justified... however you try to justify it or ignore it happened when we're talking zionist terrorism
israel is mainly harmful to the palestinians living under occupation... what do the other countries have to do with it? they're bad too? yea and? does that make israel good? lol you're a fucking tool
are you going to deny that a majority of the world's jews are ashkenazi?
are you also going to deny that during the 8th century the khazzar tribe in russia converted to judaism and the people spread all over europe?
what does arafat or the canaanites have to do with this? the indigenous population was living on the land and european zionists came and claimed it as theirs... did i even mention the palestinians being the descendants of ishmael or the canaanites? i'm talking about the indigenous population... of which about 5-10% was jewish... but i don't see how that gives european zionists any claim to the land... maybe you do...
"muslims ruled spain many centuries ago... i'm a muslim... not even arab or berber.. but afghan... and since muslims ruled spain many centuries ago... me and a group of some other random muslims are entitled to some land there and deserve our own country on spanish land"
the whole zionist ideology is ridiculous and relies on injustice to the indigenous population...
step ur game up chump.. ur bringing nothing new to the table... finally you admit it though... you are a propaganda victim... i'm glad you've finally come to the realization or have grown the balls to admit it... wasn't so hard now was it
pseudo-jews? lol wtf? where r u pullin this shit out of? i made a distinction between the indigenous population of palestine (the jews there) and the european zionist colonists/terrorists... the europeans have no claim to the land... how hard is it to grasp something this simple? yeah the holocaust happened... so fucking what? you think some palestinian who was kicked off his land gives a fuck? it's not his problem... well now it is... (but this would just reinforce my initial statement that palestinians have been victims of zionism... and make you look like the dumbass too blind to see the truth)
no comment on that article huh?
nothing u can say about the lavon affair right?
nothing u can say about zionist terrorism against the indigenous population? oh yea... palestinians should be happy because their nationalism developed only as a response to zionism... lol get the fuck outta here man.. take a dollar from some1 and give them a plastic bag in return and expect them to be grateful... seriously get an education.. don't be such a sheep... and start using some common sense... it'll benefit u in the long run... you'll be a lot happier with yourself knowing that you're not lying to yourself..
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Replacing language by a distorted version. Next the entire history is dumped and replaced by the delirium
of fantasies produced by hateful obsessions.
">would remind you that today's khazzar jews are a fake"
Racist trash. If any jew would be fake, because allegedly somebody
converted, all Christians in this world would be fake, because they've
forefathers who once converted from another faith. That's a matter of
elementary logic.
And now since I'm the one who is brainwashed, let me ask you something, what does the Lavon Affair have to do with Palestinians? - Mosad much later also hunted down those teorrorists from Munich, so what- You must oppose that as well, innocents were killed at times right? Israel shouldn't endure anything that endangers its existence, that's it.
Does it refute the fact Palestinian Arabs were manipulated both by their leaders and by the Arab states along with the Brits themselves to obstruct the creation of a Jewish state? Does it refute the fact there was an agreement signed:
"It might have been made clear that the Sherif Hussein had called on the Moslems to welcome the Jews to Palestine; information should have been spread about the cordial meetings between Faisal and Dr. Chaim Weizmann..."
^
But I guess it wasn't.
You're so funny, you don't even argue through logic you keep attempting to somehow discredit me, you keep ignoring history, you keep bringing anti-Jewish propaganda, You keep trying to refute Jeiwsh claim to the land through toy theories about how Palestinians are decendents of Canaaanites and how Jews are decendents of Khazzars.
In the holocaust or in 2000 years of anti-semitism it didn't really matter to anyone what kind of Jew was being burned\killed convert or non convert as if there's ever been a reliable trace, now suddenly there's a hierarchy of Jews, lol.
Go visit the PLO's site, Or some Egyptian anti- Jewish site.
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Replacing language by a distorted version. Next the entire history is dumped and replaced by the delirium
of fantasies produced by hateful obsessions.
">would remind you that today's khazzar jews are a fake"
Racist trash. If any jew would be fake, because allegedly somebody
converted, all Christians in this world would be fake, because they've
forefathers who once converted from another faith. That's a matter of
elementary logic.
And now since I'm the one who is brainwashed, let me ask you something, what does the Lavon Affair have to do with Palestinians? - Mosad much later also hunted down those teorrorists from Munich, so what- You must oppose that as well, innocents were killed at times right? Israel shouldn't endure anything that endangers its existence, that's it.
Does it refute the fact Palestinian Arabs were manipulated both by their leaders and by the Arab states along with the Brits themselves to obstruct the creation of a Jewish state? Does it refute the fact there was an agreement signed:
"It might have been made clear that the Sherif Hussein had called on the Moslems to welcome the Jews to Palestine; information should have been spread about the cordial meetings between Faisal and Dr. Chaim Weizmann..."
^
But I guess it wasn't.
You're so funny, you don't even argue through logic you keep attempting to somehow discredit me, you keep ignoring history, you keep bringing anti-Jewish propaganda, You keep trying to refute Jeiwsh claim to the land through toy theories about how Palestinians are decendents of Canaaanites and how Jews are decendents of Khazzars.
In the holocaust or in 2000 years of anti-semitism it didn't really matter to anyone what kind of Jew was being burned\killed convert or non convert as if there's ever been a reliable trace, now suddenly there's a hierarchy of Jews, lol.
Go visit the PLO's site, Or some Egyptian anti- Jewish site.
U Are Truelly the most brainwashed SOB I ever seen,mossad hunted these terrorist in munich right,that why in isreal they have parks named after them and they were honored .
After half a century of reticence and recrimination, Israel on Wednesday honored nine Egyptian Jews recruited as agents-provocateur in what became one of the worst intelligence bungles in the country’s history.
Israel was at war with Egypt when it hatched a plan in 1954 to ruin its rapprochement with the United States and Britain by firebombing sites frequented by foreigners in Cairo and Alexandria.
But Israeli hoped the attacks, would be blamed on local insurgents collapsed when the young Zionist bombers were caught and confessed at public trials. Two were hanged. The rest served jail terms and emigrated to Israel.
Embarrassed before the West, the fledgling Jewish state long denied involvement. It kept mum even after its 1979 peace deal with Egypt, fearing memories of the debacle could sour ties.
“Although it is still a sensitive situation, we decided now to express our respect for these heroes,” President Moshe Katzav said after presenting the three surviving members of the bomber ring with certificates of appreciation at a Jerusalem ceremony.
What went wrong in the “Lavon Affair” – after Pinhas Lavon, Israel’s defense minister when the plot came to light – remains a matter of debate in a country more used to tales of espionage coups. The Egyptian Jews were recruited by a fringe unit of Military Intelligence rather than the premier Israeli spy agency Mossad.
The situation recurred in 1985, when U.S. Navy analyst Jonathan Pollard was sentenced to life imprisonment in the United States for passing military secrets to Israel’s scientific liaison office.
“As with Pollard, this (Lavon Affair) was a rogue operation,” said David Kimche, a former Mossad deputy chief. “We knew never to go down that road again.”
There is a twist to the Egyptian case – the now widespread belief that the bombers were betrayed to the authorities by their Israeli handler, who turned double-agent.
“The general feeling is that he was the one who caused it all,” Kimche said.
Under a veil of secrecy, the handler was tried for contacts with Egyptian intelligence and jailed for 10 years.
Meanwhile, the agents locked up in Egypt were ignored, excluded from several prisoner exchanges with Israel after the wars of 1956 and 1967. Now that they have been officially recognised in Israel, the former agents are campaigning for a full account of their operation to be included in the high-school syllabus.
“This is a great day for all of us, those who were hanged and those who died,” said Marcelle Ninio, the only female member of the cell. “We are happy we’ve got our honour back.”
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I to the Gezzy is winning this debate.
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I to the Gezzy is winning this debate.
greatest comeback in history
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lol....Kassem my man, how does this refute anything from what I said?
I've studied The Lavon Affair in school man more than 7 years ago, what's the point of bringing it up.
I'm much more concerned with the fact Egypt was among the countries who attacked Israel (prior to the Lavon affair), any support from the west to a country that attempted to destroy Israel, as you can understand, is not something Israel(or any other country in a similar situation) could be fond of.
I don't see why a park can't be named after them there are plenty of Ben Gurion streets, plenty of Jabotinsky streets,plenty of Hagana streets, plenty of Palmah streets, why not name a park after Mosad agents that were promoting Israeli interests, you know who Eli Kohen was?- there are plenty of places named after him as well.
lol I know what yours or Jamal's next post is going to be "Israel celebrates Zionist terrorist culture and Igeezy Just proved it"
Only that Israel wouldn't exist if it wasn't for people like these, Arab states existed long before PLO,HAMAS,JIHAD etc and Faisal could ,and was about to, achieve a Palestinian state without any of these terrorist groups(...Only that certain Arab leaders and certain colonialist Brits thought differently.)
and that's were lies the diff between freedom fighters and terrorists ;D
Thank you guys, you actually motivate me to become more and more eloquent.
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well the fact is these terrorists attacked american and british intrest not egyptian ,so know that aint freedom fighting.the key word here is freedom fighter,those jews that blew the british building could have just backed up and left to isreal.but they wanted to start a war between egypt and britian.freedom fighter is someone that kills to free his people, and a freedom fighter isn't somebody who bombs allies.
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well the fact is these terrorists attacked american and british intrest not egyptian ,so know that aint freedom fighting.the key word here is freedom fighter,those jews that blew the british building could have just backed up and left to isreal.but they wanted to start a war between egypt and britian.freedom fighter is someone that kills to free his people, and a freedom fighter isn't somebody who bombs allies.
Jewish underground groups were freedom fighters.
Mosad recruits and agents during the Lavon Affair were not freedom fighters(...lol don't put words in my mouth....) they were secret service agents that were promoting Israeli interests- A war between Egypt and Britain would serve Israel's interest just fine. American and British support of a state that a few years earlier attacked Israel is not something Israel could be fond of- who violated the terms first?
If you're a friend of my enemy (logically)-> you're my enemy(... Not even mentioning British support of Pan-Arabism prior to the proclamation of Israel.)
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Indeed your last post is true but it also serves Israeli interests to attack the palestinians and just await the reprisal so they can become even more brutal. There have been many instances where the timing between a palestinian attak and an israeli attack have been way too swift. Now we have ascertained the Israel does after all engage in sponsoring terrorism is it really beyond the realms of belief that they dont "sponsor arabs" to attack the jews?
After all if you think there is an inch of humanity in a government which bans the wedding of jews to palestinians and that refuses to allow palestinians to actually stay in Israel then you are even more deluded than I had given you credit for. If you want to look at vile hatred then this "acceptable aperheid" is just that.
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In fact its been proved many times before that zionist terrorist were responsible for driving jews out of places like iran and into Israel with grenade and rocket attacks into crowded market streets and thats jews themselves who have written about that.
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israel should be move to hell if u ask me
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is it really beyond the realms of belief that they dont "sponsor arabs" to attack the jews?
lol...again you're coming with this wedding and apartheid nonesenses, it's funny how you guys preserve your misconceptions even after I refute them with facts>Go read my response to this at the other thread man. I don't deal with conspiracy theories (based on propaganda), I deal with facts-Because you don't need to believe facts(Being that you're very much into realms of belief ;D) you need to know the facts.
Homie, I have Palestinian Arab friends in college among which there are also girls,we go to the same classes and we all have lunch together, what the hell are you talking about man?
I live here in Israel, I experience things in first person, I don't get mixed up with nonsensical propaganda and rumours like you guys do. I live the things you guys can only recreate in your minds and base your assumptions upon, you see things through the eyes of reporters who are often bias, I make up my mind based on what I see, and I know what I see.
Do you know the diff between an Israeli Arab and a Palestinian from the PA man? lol
You guys are so funny.
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Well here is a south african jew
In our struggle against apartheid, the great supporters were Jewish people. They almost instinctively had to be on the side of the disenfranchised, of the voiceless ones, fighting injustice, oppression and evil. I have continued to feel strongly with the Jews. I am patron of a Holocaust centre in South Africa. I believe Israel has a right to secure borders.
What is not so understandable, not justified, is what it did to another people to guarantee its existence. I've been very deeply distressed in my visit to the Holy Land; it reminded me so much of what happened to us black people in South Africa. I have seen the humiliation of the Palestinians at checkpoints and roadblocks, suffering like us when young white police officers prevented us from moving about.
On one of my visits to the Holy Land I drove to a church with the Anglican bishop in Jerusalem. I could hear tears in his voice as he pointed to Jewish settlements. I thought of the desire of Israelis for security. But what of the Palestinians who have lost their land and homes?
I have experienced Palestinians pointing to what were their homes, now occupied by Jewish Israelis. I was walking with Canon Naim Ateek (the head of the Sabeel Ecumenical Centre) in Jerusalem. He pointed and said: "Our home was over there. We were driven out of our home; it is now occupied by Israeli Jews."
My heart aches. I say why are our memories so short. Have our Jewish sisters and brothers forgotten their humiliation? Have they forgotten the collective punishment, the home demolitions, in their own history so soon? Have they turned their backs on their profound and noble religious traditions? Have they forgotten that God cares deeply about the downtrodden?
Israel will never get true security and safety through oppressing another people. A true peace can ultimately be built only on justice. We condemn the violence of suicide bombers, and we condemn the corruption of young minds taught hatred; but we also condemn the violence of military incursions in the occupied lands, and the inhumanity that won't let ambulances reach the injured.
The military action of recent days, I predict with certainty, will not provide the security and peace Israelis want; it will only intensify the hatred.
Israel has three options: revert to the previous stalemated situation; exterminate all Palestinians; or - I hope - to strive for peace based on justice, based on withdrawal from all the occupied territories, and the establishment of a viable Palestinian state on those territories side by side with Israel, both with secure borders.
We in South Africa had a relatively peaceful transition. If our madness could end as it did, it must be possible to do the same everywhere else in the world. If peace could come to South Africa, surely it can come to the Holy Land?
My brother Naim Ateek has said what we used to say: "I am not pro- this people or that. I am pro-justice, pro-freedom. I am anti- injustice, anti-oppression."
But you know as well as I do that, somehow, the Israeli government is placed on a pedestal [in the US], and to criticise it is to be immediately dubbed anti-semitic, as if the Palestinians were not semitic. I am not even anti-white, despite the madness of that group. And how did it come about that Israel was collaborating with the apartheid government on security measures?
People are scared in this country [the US], to say wrong is wrong because the Jewish lobby is powerful - very powerful. Well, so what? For goodness sake, this is God's world! We live in a moral universe. The apartheid government was very powerful, but today it no longer exists. Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Pinochet, Milosevic, and Idi Amin were all powerful, but in the end they bit the dust.
Injustice and oppression will never prevail. Those who are powerful have to remember the litmus test that God gives to the powerful: what is your treatment of the poor, the hungry, the voiceless? And on the basis of that, God passes judgment.
We should put out a clarion call to the government of the people of Israel, to the Palestinian people and say: peace is possible, peace based on justice is possible. We will do all we can to assist you to achieve this peace, because it is God's dream, and you will be able to live amicably together as sisters and brothers.
Desmond Tutu is the former Archbishop of Cape Town and chairman of South Africa's truth and reconciliation commission. This address was given at a conference on Ending the Occupation held in Boston, Massachusetts, earlier this month. A longer version appears in the current edition of Church Times
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FACT: Israel Is Illegally Occupying Palestine
Under UN Resolution 242, Israel is required by international law to withdraw from all the territories occupied in 1967, including East Jerusalem. The United Nation's General Assembly has repeatedly condemned Israel's occupation of
the territories as illegal (see UN resolutions 338, 1397, and 1402, among others). Israel's continued occupation of Palestine, sanctioned and maintained by the US, is one of the most serious obstructions to a just and lasting peace in the Middle East.
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FACT: Israel Systematically Violates the Human Rights of Palestinians in the Occupied Territories
Each day, Israeli security forces in the West Bank and Gaza violate articles of the 4th Geneva Convention on Human Rights, an agreement that governs wartime rules of engagement and to which Israel is a signatory. Palestinian homes and agriculture fields are routinely demolished to make way for illegal Israeli settlements. Israeli soldiers regularly arrest and detain--often for years-- Palestinians without due process. According to Amnesty International, members of the Israeli security forces regularly use torture and prolonged incommunicado detention against Palestinians.
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FACT: The Israeli "Defense" Forces routinely kill children and innocent civilians
According to B'Tselem, the Israeli Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories, 1059 of the Palestinians killed from September 29, 2000 though July 20, 2002 were civilians. In comparison, 360 Israeli civilians were killed by Palestinians during this period, in Israel and the Occupied Territories combined. There were also over 108 extra-judicial assassinations of Palestinians during this period -- a war crime according to the Hague Convention of 1907.
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FACT: Israel is an Apartheid State
Israel has developed an elaborate system of racial discrimination, embedded in its legal system, exceeding Apartheid South Africa's laws. These laws include the Law of Entry, the Law of Return, the Citizenship Law, the Military Service Law, the Law of Acquisition of Absentee Property, the Law for Acquisition of Land, and a host of legally sanctioned, discriminatory rabbinical rulings.
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FACT: Palestinians suffer a severe water shortage due to the Occupation
The Israeli government pursues a grossly discriminatory water policy. Since 1967, the Israeli government has been stealing up to 80% of the groundwater from the"Mountain Reservoir," a group of groundwater aquifers located underneath the mountains of the Occupied West Bank of Palestine, including the Occupied Jerusalem. The Palestinian people are allowed no control of these extensive water resources
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"If I was an Arab leader I would never make [peace] with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country."
First Prime Minister of Israel, David Ben Gurion
"I don't mind if after the job is done you put me in front of a Nuremberg Trial and then jail me for life. Hang me if you want, as a war criminal. What you don't understand is that the dirty work of Zionism is not finished yet, far from it.
Current Prime Minister of Israel, Ariel Sharon, speaking to Amos Oz, editor of Davar, on Dec. 17, 1982
"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.
"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."
-- David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.
"There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"
-- Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.
"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.
"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.
"If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel."
-- David Ben-Gurion
"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
-- Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.
"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to."
-- Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.
"Any one who speaks in favor of bringing the Arab refugees back must also say how he expects to take the responsibility for it, if he is interested in the state of Israel. It is better that things are stated clearly and plainly: We shall not let this happen."
-- Golda Meir, 1961, in a speech to the Knesset, reported in Ner, October 1961
"This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy."
-- Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971
"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!"
-- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.
"[Israel will] create in the course of the next 10 or 20 years conditions which would attract natural and voluntary migration of the refugees from the Gaza Strip and the west Bank to Jordan. To achieve this we have to come to agreement with King Hussein and not with Yasser Arafat."
-- Yitzhak Rabin (a "Prince of Peace" by Clinton's standards), explaining his method of ethnically cleansing the occupied land without stirring a world outcry. (Quoted in David Shipler in the New York Times, 04/04/1983 citing Meir Cohen's remarks to the Knesset's foreign affairs and defense committee on March 16.)
"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.
"The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever."
-- Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine
"The past leaders of our movement left us a clear message to keep Eretz Israel from the Sea to the River Jordan for future generations, for the mass aliya (=Jewish immigration), and for the Jewish people, all of whom will be gathered into this country."
-- Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir declares at a Tel Aviv memorial service for former Likud leaders, November 1990. Jerusalem Domestic Radio Service.
"The settlement of the Land of Israel is the essence of Zionism. Without settlement, we will not fulfill Zionism. It's that simple."
-- Yitzhak Shamir, Maariv, 02/21/1997.
"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988
"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."
-- Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.
"The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more"....
-- Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000
"If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force...."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000.
"I would have joined a terrorist organization."
-- Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.
"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.
"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.
"Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online
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I guess what is left to say now is...hmmm....Zig Hail!...lol
Can I have a link to this highly objective source of yours? ;)
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http://www.nkusa.org/
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I live here in Israel
I don't get mixed up with nonsensical propaganda and rumours like you guys do.
LLOOLLLLLL funniest shit you've said so far
And every American is just as informed about what happens in America... no propaganda or rumors here either...
LOL @ no propaganda in Israel... the state founded on propaganda... the state that kills reporters... the state where one soldier was caught on camera killing an innocent woman holding on to her children and the government put pressure to have the tape kept on the downlow... and who can forget "A LAND WITHOUT A PEOPLE FOR A PEOPLE WITHOUT A LAND".... NO PROPAGANDA... LOOOLLLLLL get outta here you tool... you've been a victim for so long that you even said yourself "I DON'T HAVE TO BELIEVE ANYTHING FACTUAL" loollll you're so used to propaganda that facts hold no value to you because even if you were to be confronted with facts, you wouldn't recognize them... as is evident :)
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And every American is just as informed about what happens in America... no propaganda or rumors here either...
Let me ask you something. Let's accept your claim- that living in America does not necessarily mean being informed about what happens in America.
Do you think you could explain why it is like that? Why aren't many Americans invovled\aware in\of the politics in their country? What is the voting rate in the USA (each elections)? How many people there actualy think they can change something or affect something?
Do you agree that something like September 11th(or any other large terrorist attack) would raise political awareness in the USA among its citizens to an extent?- I don't think anyone can disagree.
People start asking questions about USA's foreign policy, maybe even people that prior to this event weren't very interested untill they felt a threat to their own life( there's a Talib Kweli song "The Proud" from the album Quality that depicts the situation ;D.)
Do you think that maybe a war with a large scale compulsory draft among citizens would raise political awareness among the population in the USA? We have plenty of examples from the Vietnam War-all the pacifist demonstrations etc.
One more question, if we count the sum of citizens that were included either in the compulsory drafts USA had throughout its modern history along with citizens affected by terrorist attacks(this includes families of dead victims) to what percentage of the entire population do you think it would amount to?
Now let's take Israel, a country with a general compulsory army service plus to reserve amry service(that turns also into compulsory draft during wartime) and plus to citizens working in the standing army,
Add them to the amount of people whose lives were affected by terrorism (dead family members, injuries etc), now, what percentage of the population in Israel is this going to amount to?
See my point?- Israel's population is around 6,000,000 people how big is USA's population- you tell me. :)
And if you want to see some statistics, look it up, Israel has among the highest voting rates in the world in proportion to its population.
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I see your point... and I must say that you've mastered the art of going off on tangents.
I know plenty of dumb doo doo chumps who vote.... that doesn't mean shit... any citizen has the right to vote here..
You're a tool man... no joke... I don't even blame you though... I'm not saying you're an idiot, although you've made some retarded remarks like "how did it exist if the word was coined later" LOL I ain't gonna hate on you for being slow... but all I'm saying is you really need to look at what happened and use common sense to explain shit... you disregard facts, but you love telling about other peoples' opinions that match yours... think outside the bubble for a moment... cuz it ain't just fucking borders, walls, and suicide bombers... there are innocent people being killed on both sides... for you to say that Israelis are the real victims and the Palestinians only have their leadership to blame.. is some ignorant shit... there's no way to defend the actions that Zionists took at the start of this conflict.. you and I both know it, except you don't want to admit it... and it's just baffling to see one guy try to defend something.. when the guys who committed those actions themselves have admitted to what they've done... it takes a real sheep like you to do something like that...
I don't even need to argue with you because I honestly feel sorry for people like you... don't take anything as a diss... consider it a reality check...
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I see your point... and I must say that you've mastered the art of going off on tangents.
I know plenty of dumb doo doo chumps who vote.... that doesn't mean shit... any citizen has the right to vote here..
You're a tool man... no joke... I don't even blame you though... I'm not saying you're an idiot, although you've made some retarded remarks like "how did it exist if the word was coined later" LOL I ain't gonna hate on you for being slow... but all I'm saying is you really need to look at what happened and use common sense to explain shit... you disregard facts, but you love telling about other peoples' opinions that match yours... think outside the bubble for a moment... cuz it ain't just fucking borders, walls, and suicide bombers... there are innocent people being killed on both sides... for you to say that Israelis are the real victims and the Palestinians only have their leadership to blame.. is some ignorant shit... there's no way to defend the actions that Zionists took at the start of this conflict.. you and I both know it, except you don't want to admit it... and it's just baffling to see one guy try to defend something.. when the guys who committed those actions themselves have admitted to what they've done... it takes a real sheep like you to do something like that...
I don't even need to argue with you because I honestly feel sorry for people like you... don't take anything as a diss... consider it a reality check...
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I know plenty of dumb doo doo chumps who vote.... that doesn't mean shit... any citizen has the right to vote here..
But this is hardly the point. Let's put it like this, how many of those who vote or don't vote in the USA have actually been exposed either to compulsory army service or to terrorist attacks[ or to both]?- in Israel it is a much higher percentage of the population(in proportion of course to the overall population), meaning that people who went through such things in Israel have a higher awareness to what is going on in Israel, the massive voting in Israel is a sign of political awareness not a sign of intelligence man, I wasn't talking about who's dumb and who's smart.
When a problem concerns your life directly you look for the best way to solve it[ I'm not talking about brainwashed radicals like Baruh Goldstein, Kahana, the kah group or fucktards like Igal Amir etc, neither am I talking about Hamas, Jihad etc] I'm not talking about those who in the name of fear comply to manipulation, I'm talking about rational people. I have nothing against Palestinians, I've said it for hundreds of times, I have Arab friends, I have nothing against Arabs and I'm not the only one. Throughout my army service I've seen how the Army helped the Palestinian population in the territories in means of Employment,Civil Right Preservation( do you know what a DCO is?) etc and it boggles me that someone who hasn't gone through what I've gone comes in talking about what he's seen on CNN or on some PLO site (with the amount of falsification going on in the territories nowadays) about how the IDF does this and does that in the name of Zionism.Self Defence and Zionism are not the same thing, however,in relation to Israel's existence,both aspects(self defence and Zionism) intervene when it comes to the IDF. As long as factors that strive to destroy Israel, exist, I don't see why the Israeli Defence Force should not, don't you agree with this basic conclusion? Arabs had a number of states before Hamas, Jihad, Hizballah (etc) even existed or could justify their existence as "national movements", Palestinian Arabs had an agreement signed with Zionists that shown Zionist support for a sovereign Palestinian Arab State long before any of these groups like Hamas, Jihad,PLO etc appeared. There was no Jewish state before the existence of Hagana,Palmah,Etsel etc.
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good.. you're starting to at least sound rational now and make some sense.. I'm glad I've taught you something...
but peep game..
if you want to use terrorist attacks as an example for raised awareness... since you're giving me your opinion on what you see happening in israel.. and there's no way to prove any of this with facts.. i'll tell you what i see happening here... after 9/11 people were fed false information instead of no information which was the case before... people were unaware of most of the affairs in the middle east and not many people really gave a shit... after 9/11... people started giving a shit.. but what bullshit were they fed? that iraq has wmd's and is trying to bomb us? so you see... people being affected by something and actually caring about what's going on... doesn't necessarily correlate to them knowing what's going on...
peace
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good.. you're starting to at least sound rational now and make some sense.. I'm glad I've taught you something...
but peep game..
if you want to use terrorist attacks as an example for raised awareness... since you're giving me your opinion on what you see happening in israel.. and there's no way to prove any of this with facts.. i'll tell you what i see happening here... after 9/11 people were fed false information instead of no information which was the case before... people were unaware of most of the affairs in the middle east and not many people really gave a shit... after 9/11... people started giving a shit.. but what bullshit were they fed? that iraq has wmd's and is trying to bomb us? so you see... people being affected by something and actually caring about what's going on... doesn't necessarily correlate to them knowing what's going on...
peace
True, and I gave you examples of people who are driven by their fears and by manipulation(on both sides). How many manipulated, misinformed Ameircans have Arab American friends? Show me an Ameircan you would define as a misinformed-brainwashed American that has Arab American friends or even one that doesn't think all Arabs need to be put into one big gass chamber.
lol...Sorry, I'm nothing like this.
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That doesn't mean shit... you have to start realizing when two things correlate and when they don't...
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That doesn't mean shit... you have to start realizing when two things correlate and when they don't...
You're forgeting what the agrument is. Based on my posts on the Arab\Israeli conflict and due to the fact I'm affected by the everyday life in Israel, you claim that I'm brainwashed.
To prove your point you brought up that "Being affected by something and actually caring about what's going on....doesn't necessarily correlate with knowing" ,in other words, people who are affected to an extent they start caring, when fed with propaganda,may become brainwashed....this is what you're saying, and I agree.
But what I'm asking you is- Would an anti-Palestinian/anti-Arab brainwashed Israeli person(if you're accepting that I am one) be able to have Palestinian friends?
or would an Anti-Arab American person be able to have Arab friends?
Would you define Nazis in WW2 as brainwashed? How many of them had Jewish friends?
p.s let alone those brainwashed people on both sides who think all Arabs/Jews need to be murdered
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I have plenty of Jewish friends.. but that has nothing to do with me being against the actions of the Israeli state... I'm Muslim but I don't agree with what's going on in Saudi Arabia... like I said, it doesn't mean shit... but to answer your question... I don't think you're anti-Palestinian or anti-Arab... I don't make these types of assumptions simply because you defend the right of Israel to exist and blame all the problems on Arab leadership... that doesn't make you a racist or anything... it just means you're misinformed...
Here's the thing... I'm not trying to argue whether Israel has the right to exist or not.. all I stated is that the Palestinian people have in one way or another been victims of Zionism... and you have to be a straight up retarded tool to deny that... I don't care if there was 1 refugee or 1 million... there have been victims as a result of the Zionist movement... I don't care if 1 innocent person was killed by Zionist terrorists or 10,000... there have been victims as a result of the Zionist movement... honestly it's like trying to deny the holocaust happened... does it really fucking matter if 3-4 million Jews died or 6 million? No.. it happened and it was fucked up regardless of how many million there were.. as a sidenote, people still deny the Armenian Genocide, when it's fact that it occurred... the U.S. and Turkey still haven't accepted it though... Turks have presented "facts" to support their claims... but the fact that any evidence exists that it did happen refutes the Turkish claims ... in the same way, any evidence supporting the fact that Palestinians were murdered, had their villages destroyed, etc (don't forget Jenin)... refutes your shit...
You make yourself look dumb and lose any sort of credibility making irrational, ignorant claims like that.
Let me ask you one simple question... if Zionist leaders have admitted to carrying out the discussed acts... then why do you insist that those things never happened? why do you try to defend lies when those who committed the acts have already admitted to them? it honestly makes no sense.. i don't know if you're trying to imply that those guys lied when they said those things and only said them just to simply say them or what...
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There can be nothing further contributed to this debate. It was obvious YEARS ago that Igeezy is lost. Honestly, u make those Nuke Em All Hicks look like liberal Multilateralists. If by this point, youre still replyin the way u are....there is no hope for u.
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Let me ask you one simple question... if Zionist leaders have admitted to carrying out the discussed acts... then why do you insist that those things never happened? why do you try to defend lies when those who committed the acts have already admitted to them? it honestly makes no sense.. i don't know if you're trying to imply that those guys lied when they said those things and only said them just to simply say them or what...
Many people on both sides died-fact.It doesn't mean you can make such a genralization. By saying "The Palestinian People Are Victims Of Zionism" you're not saying "Large numbers of Palestinians were killed throughout the conflict" you're saying "Every Palestinian is a victim of Zionism" which is untrue and is in fact propaganda because there are plenty of Palestinians who thrive on the Zionist enterprise.
Here let's use logic:
If you accept- The Palestinian People are victims of Zionism
knowing that:
20% of Israel's (Israel-Zionist enterprise) population is Palestinian and lives 100s of times better the Arabs in the Palestinian Autonomy
-It is immediately disproved.
Although every Palestinian, without exception, is a byproduct of Zionism.
No Zionism=No Palestinians
And it is wierd that someone who is willing to make such a generalization is not making it when it comes to Palestinians being victims of their leadership....
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I to The Geezy won this debate.
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Amen to that Fallujah, which is exactly why I am no longer responding directly to what he says
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Let me ask you one simple question... if Zionist leaders have admitted to carrying out the discussed acts... then why do you insist that those things never happened? why do you try to defend lies when those who committed the acts have already admitted to them? it honestly makes no sense.. i don't know if you're trying to imply that those guys lied when they said those things and only said them just to simply say them or what...
Many people on both sides died-fact.It doesn't mean you can make such a genralization. By saying "The Palestinian People Are Victims Of Zionism" you're not saying "Large numbers of Palestinians were killed throughout the conflict" you're saying "Every Palestinian is a victim of Zionism" which is untrue and is in fact propaganda because there are plenty of Palestinians who thrive on the Zionist enterprise.
Here let's use logic:
If you accept- The Palestinian People are victims of Zionism
knowing that:
20% of Israel's (Israel-Zionist enterprise) population is Palestinian and lives 100s of times better the Arabs in the Palestinian Autonomy
-It is immediately disproved.
Although every Palestinian, without exception, is a byproduct of Zionism.
No Zionism=No Palestinians
And it is wierd that someone who is willing to make such a generalization is not making it when it comes to Palestinians being victims of their leadership....
The fact that Palestinian nationalism was a byproduct of Zionism makes a difference to you? The fact that they're better off in Israel means there haven't been victims?
Let's use the I Geezy approach...
Blacks have never been victims in America because they're way better off here now than they would ever have been if we didn't bring their ancestors over as slaves.
Seriously... it's as easy as 1+1... you're a tool.
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i gave up on the two ,everytime geazy is confronted with facts he just changes the topic.it's hard for him to realise he is living in a country that based on terrorism.a lost kid in a bug world,i feel sorry for him.
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Blacks have never been victims in America because they're way better off here now than they would ever have been if we didn't bring their ancestors over as slaves.
You got it,
I can't even say the Jewish People had been a victim to anti-semitism as long as there is one Jew who hadn't been a victim to anti-semitism. I can say however that many Jews had been victims to anti-semitism.
The moment there is one exceptional, the entire generalization collapses. I wouldn't oppose saying something like "Many Palestinians/Arabs were killed" because it is a fact just like "Many Israelis/Jews were killed" but saying that an entire PEOPLE had been victim to something is an ungrounded generalization and a mean of propaganda when used to side something politically.
And again, if you accept that one Palestinian dead due to an Israeli\Zionist action makes the entire Palestinian People a victim of Zionsim I'm surprised you don't think one Palestinian dead due to a Palestinian action makes the entire Palestinian People a victim of the Palestinian Leadership.
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First, I suggest you look up the definition of "victim".
Then, you need to understand that I'm not implying that the Zionists carried out genocide or anything like that... but have the Palestinian people been victims of Zionism? Yeah, of course... undeniably so. In the same way that innocent Israelis have died because of Palestinian terrorists... so it wouldn't be wrong to state that "Israelis have been victims of Palestinian terrorism". It's true. Does it have to mean that the entire Israeli "PEOPLE" is victim? No, but there definitely have been those affected.. victims.
My argument was that Palestinians have been victims of Zionism. You said no. I have proven that they have. I am right. You are wrong. If you want to incorporate other aspects into the argument, feel free to do so, but it won't change the fact that my argument stands correct.
Putting 2 and 2 together seems to be quite a difficult task for you. Now please go and play with CWalker & Co. because they seem to be down at your level... you can't hang with me
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I am right.
You are wrong.
Now please go and play with CWalker & Co. because they seem to be down at your level... you can't hang with me
i gave up on the two ,everytime geazy is confronted with facts he just changes the topic.
I guess we can all see now who's on topic and who's off.Some people seem to be playing some internet-ego games instead of adressing the issue.
Now, more to the point.
May I remind you:
but have the Palestinian people been victims of Zionism? Yeah, of course...
Thing is you can not logically use the term Palestinian People because it is a generalization that is ungrounded(Being that 1.The term itself is a product of Zionism 2. There are Palestinians who thrive on Zionism) and it is in fact as easy as 2+2, unlike the conflict itself.
In your case, it has been used to portray 'Zionism' (or Jewish claim to the land) as unjust through an exaggeration of reality(lie\propaganda) and not through logic.
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Thing is you can not logically use the term Palestinian People because it is a generalization that is ungrounded(Being that 1.The term itself is a product of Zionism 2. There are Palestinians who thrive on Zionism) and it is in fact as easy as 2+2, unlike the conflict itself.
In your case, it has been used to portray 'Zionism' (or Jewish claim to the land) as unjust through an exaggeration of reality(lie\propaganda) and not through logic.
What the fuck does the term have to do with them being victims? I know Israelis forget this sometimes, but they are still people, no matter what you guys may think of them. If there are some Palestinians who "thrive" on Zionism, does that mean that there aren't any victims?
So the fact that Palestinian nationalism is a byproduct of Zionism means something when innocent people die?
You know that Zionism is a byproduct of anti-Semitism? Can I say "Jews weren't victims of the Holocaust and European anti-Semitism in general because if it wasn't for that anti-Semitism, there would never have been Zionism or Israel" ... I still don't blame you for being such a brainwashed tool...
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If there are some Palestinians who "thrive" on Zionism, does that mean that there aren't any victims?
Just like some AREN'T the victims of the Palestinian Leadership?
I can't believe you can't see the generalization.
People have suffered on both sides, and it's not like you can't address these people, only that when you do you need to maintain neutrality, without exaggerating reality in the favour of one side. A statement like "The Palestinian People have been victims of Zionism" is a reality twister, because when you say "The Palestinian People..." it is implied that the entire Palestinian People is
a victim of Zionism(and that's without even minding the meaning of the term 'Victim' or the term 'Zionism') and that every Zionist is anti-Palestinian -both implications are untrue. Rhetorically speaking, when a single statement is not based on logic/reality, it is propaganda. That's it, and this is what I have been trying to show you all along since a generalization could also be made as for the Palestinian People being a victim of their leadership but the fact you chose not to do so, sayes something about your neutrality.
p.s check it:
Every Nazi is Anti-Jewish(by definition) but not every Zionist is Anti-Palestinian....do you accept?
do you see it or is this a tough one?
Let's use another analogy:Talib Kweli-The Proud:
"Today the paper say Timothy McVeigh's in hell
So everything's okay and all must be well
I remember Oklahoma when they put out the blaze
And put Islamic terrorist bombing, on the front page It's like saying only gays get AIDS, propaganda"
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You're wrong once again... which isn't unusual.
People have suffered on both sides... you said it... which means that Palestinians have suffered because of Zionism. That's all you needed to say. Why do you argue if you're going to end up agreeing?
I never stated that every single Palestinian was a victim... I also never stated that every Zionist is anti-Palestinian... just because they have no regard for them in a lot of their actions, doesn't make them "anti" anything...
LOL @ "reality twister" coming from a Zionist... the whole Zionist ideology is a reality twister. "Land with no People".. LOL get the fuck outta here
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But didn't you state that
The problem isn't even Sharon or any of these other fucktards... it's the nature of Zionist ideology
???
I also never stated that every Zionist is anti-Palestinian...
It seems like you're starting to get it but still
How is it the problem if not every Zionist is anti-Palestinian?
Man, you are arguing with yourself.
p.s A Zionist followes the Zionist ideology.
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Today our newspapers are full of Anti-Iran-Propaganda, I guess Bush already prepares for war behind closed doors
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But didn't you state that
The problem isn't even Sharon or any of these other fucktards... it's the nature of Zionist ideology
???
I also never stated that every Zionist is anti-Palestinian...
It seems like you're starting to get it but still
How is it the problem if not every Zionist is anti-Palestinian?
Man, you are arguing with yourself.
p.s A Zionist followes the Zionist ideology.
I know you have trouble putting 2 and 2 together, so let me clarify once again for the slow one...
Zionist ideology doesn't have to be anti-Palestinian in nature in order for it to victimize the Palestinian people. You could replace the word Palestinian with whatever you want... someone has to suffer... and someone did...
Anti-Palestinian sentiment emerged later with the establishment and governance of the terrorist state of Israel.
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Zionist ideology doesn't have to be anti-Palestinian in nature in order for it to victimize the Palestinian people.
In which case then would it become harmful to Palestinians if essentially it is not anti-Palestinian? ;D
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Zionist ideology doesn't have to be anti-Palestinian in nature in order for it to victimize the Palestinian people.
In which case then would it become harmful to Palestinians if essentially it is not anti-Palestinian? ;D
Once again.. if you were able to read a post in its entirety, you may be able to comprehend, son... is it normal for Zionists to take things out of context and then try to apply a whole new meaning to the statement? Anyways.. I said....
"Zionist ideology doesn't have to be anti-Palestinian in nature in order for it to victimize the Palestinian people. You could replace the word Palestinian with whatever you want... someone has to suffer... and someone did..."
An ideology or institution doesn't have to be racist in nature in order for it to be harmful to certain groups of people.
Zionism doesn't entail hatred for Arabs in its ideology... it just so happens to be that Arabs happened to live on the land the Zionists wanted to take... if it were a different people living on that land, it would've been the same situation... the ideology is harmful to whoever is living on the land... the racism that Zionists portrayed emerged after the settlement of the land...
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Two questions,1. Have you ever heared of any land where there were no people living on it?(aside from the poles)
2.What would make a movement that was not hostile toward the native population become harmful to some of it?(See, I'm even using the inconcrete euphemism you so very much like ;) because you seem to be unable to answer without it)
Wait I believe you've already answered question number 2 long ago:
You also have to understand that people don't just let others come and take their land without resistance... the Zionists knew what they were getting into... so everytime you see a bus blow up, to them that's just a few people lost for a greater cause.
the racism that Zionists portrayed emerged after the settlement of the land...
:) really?
In February 1919, the Emir Faisal, the one recognised Arab leader at the time, then still striving for the creation of Arab political independence in Syria (of which he was briefly king) and Iraq (over which he and his house subsequently ruled for forty years), signed a formal agreement with Dr. Chaim Weizmann, representing the Zionist Organisation. This provided for co-operation between the projected Arab state and the projected reconstituted Jewish state of Palestine. Borders were still to be negotiated, but Faisal had already described the Zionist proposals as "moderate and proper." The borders proposed by the Zionists included what subsequently became Mandatory Palestine on both banks of the Jordan as well as north-western Galilee up to the Litany River-later included in southern Lebanon -- part of the Golan Heights -- later included in Syria -- and part of Sinai -- left under British administration in Egypt
settlement began much earlier as you know and resistance only later and after the agreement.
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1. You should ask the Zionists that question... I mean after all, they were the ones who assumed that there weren't any people living there... and if they did, well then you have proven my point in that they knew they were going to displace a population to accomplish their goal.
2. It was hostile. It wasn't racist in nature. Hostile isn't synonymous with racist. It was hostile because the Zionists were trying to accomplish their goal... what I mean by there initially not being any racism in their ideology is that to them it didn't matter who was living on the land they wanted to take... if that land were inhabited by Chinese people, the Zionists would've done the same thing... it didn't have anything to do with the people being Palestinian or Arab.. do you get it???
3. I can give you plenty of quotes that you seem to be so fond of that will show you how Zionists were the exact opposite of proper and moderate... but if it's anti-Zionist, it must be propaganda, right?
4. You lost a long time ago... you're starting to not even make sense anymore. "inconcrete euphemism"... I used it because you don't understand that a TERM used in modern times can be used to describe something that existed in the past, but wasn't referred to by the same term... is it wrong to refer to African-Americans of the 17th century as African-American.. or would I have to use the term nigger simply because the term African-American didn't exist back then?
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1. You should ask the Zionists that question... I mean after all, they were the ones who assumed that there weren't any people living there... and if they did, well then you have proven my point in that they knew they were going to displace a population to accomplish their goal.
2. It was hostile. It wasn't racist in nature. Hostile isn't synonymous with racist. It was hostile because the Zionists were trying to accomplish their goal... what I mean by there initially not being any racism in their ideology is that to them it didn't matter who was living on the land they wanted to take... if that land were inhabited by Chinese people, the Zionists would've done the same thing... it didn't have anything to do with the people being Palestinian or Arab.. do you get it???
3. I can give you plenty of quotes that you seem to be so fond of that will show you how Zionists were the exact opposite of proper and moderate... but if it's anti-Zionist, it must be propaganda, right?
4. You lost a long time ago... you're starting to not even make sense anymore. "inconcrete euphemism"... I used it because you don't understand that a TERM used in modern times can be used to describe something that existed in the past, but wasn't referred to by the same term... is it wrong to refer to African-Americans of the 17th century as African-American.. or would I have to use the term nigger simply because the term African-American didn't exist back then?
My man the point is, since there is no land without any people living on it(something you avoided answering), that you simply oppose the idea of a Jewish sovereign state anywhere(Something we've established long ago when you said you oppose Zionism\creation of Israel to begin with, following by your denial) and that you'd rather have yet another Arab state.Those who initiated national hostility were the locals, and that is after an agreement that was signed>Zionism, just like Israel nowadays, simply defended its existence and goals as a result of this hostility.Zionists, due to identification, at the time even made the historical mistake of adressing this hostility as if it were a true national movement[Disregarding it's reactive nature and that schizo among the local population it had shown,being that some were for and some were against the dea of 2 states side by side-might be because their self-proclaimed leadership sided those who were against. told you I ain't fond of everything Zionists\Israel does].
You admitting Zionism was not rascist showes that you understand its actions were self-defensive and reactive to the hostility from newfound national movements among the local population.
The fact of the term Palestinian not existing before Zionism does not mean people didn't live on this land(FACT-People lived on this land like there are people on most lands<never denied) but it does mean that they had no national agenda and that their national agenda is merely a political ploy, since its creation was reactive. Like Infinite said about propaganda tactics in the Al-ZARQAWI thread:
This is an old school propaganda tactic. You have to put an image to the resistance. It can't be faceless.
^^^This is exactly what was done on the part of the Palestinian Arab Leaders.
P.s You're trying to throw the discussion off track by focusing on semantics instead of focusing on the final stage of semantics(-the meaning of the words alone). And lol@wasting entire paragraphs on ego tripping, with your win/Loose nonesense :) at the expense of posting on topic.
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1. The Zionists had no claim to that land.. they were Europeans
2. Yes the Palestinians (the indigenous population.. aka the people who got their land taken away) were hostile... but what's the cause and what's the effect? Surely you've read the quote from one of your beloved Zionist terrorists explaining how no population has ever just handed their land over to people trying to take it...
3. You say you're not fond of everything Israel/Zionism does... yet you try to deny that certain people have been made victims? What actions don't you agree with then? Are they being too lenient perhaps? Should the wall be bigger in your opinion? What don't you agree with? I mean, obviously it has nothing to do with them having committed anything wrong against the Palestinian people. Or maybe perhaps you know that I'm right, but refuse to explicitly admit it...
4. Again, yes the Palestinian national movement did begin as a reaction to Zionism... so what? Does that justify the killings of Palestinian people? Does that justify removing them off the land? Does that justify building a wall on their land? Israel's actions are unjustified in trying to accomplish the goals of the Zionist movement... that's all I've said, and that holds true... no matter what irrelevancies you try bringing up. "Zionism came before Palestinian nationalism"... how that correlates to their atrocities being justified boggles my mind, but maybe it's because I haven't been fed the same bullshit you have...
5. I throw the discussion off track by focusing on semantics? LOLLL... read my posts and then read yours... go look at the other thread... read my posts and then read yours... you seem like someone drowning throwing his arms all over the place trying to keep afloat... and then you say I waste entire paragraphs on ego tripping rather than staying on topic... I know you're a Zionist so things are bound to be taken out of context and you'd rather focus on one line you can say something about, rather than focus on my post in its entirety, so I'll remind you that in my last post I made 4 points.. and only 1 was pointing out you're an idiot.. while the other 3 were on topic, and quite frankly were proving why you're an idiot, rather than simply stating that you are.
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The Zionists had no claim to that land.. they were Europeans
You simply oppose the idea of a Jewish sovereign state anywhere.
Those Jews were much less European(Having lived for centuries in segregation and under persecution and being Jewish- the people who were exiled from the land and had no land for centuries) than ,say, Palestinians were Arab(who had like a number of national states by the time Israel was declared and who left the land to clear the way for Arab armies who were to eliminate their right to a sovereign state ) so even based on your logic they have much more claim to the land...you keep reciting your anti-Israeli propaganda man.
Nice work disregarding the agreement that had been signed and the fact most Palestinians weren't driven of the land but left due to the orders and intimidations of their leaders and leaders of Arab States.Let's not forget that you completely chose to disregard the fact that Palestinians who didn't oppose Zionism didn't get any representation at all as far as leadership went after the resistance started< And this is what can not be justified and what made many Palestinians victims.
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Those Jews were much less European(Having lived for centuries in segregation and under persecution and being Jewish- the people who were exiled from the land and had no land for centuries) than ,say, Palestinians were Arab(who had like a number of national states by the time Israel was declared and who left the land to clear the way for Arab armies who were to eliminate their right to a sovereign state )
I know this may be very hard to grasp, but the Palestinians were living there on that land for centuries.... the Zionists were colonizers... how are you gonna try to tell me they had a claim to the land?
If you're gonna tell me the Zionists weren't European Jews, then please tell me what they were. Entertain me.
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lol...In one post you call them Europeans then in the next one they are suddenly European Jews maybe you'll even get to a point when they will be simply Jews, no matter what you call them they were once exiled from this land and they have every claim to it.
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lol...In one post you call them Europeans then in the next one they are suddenly European Jews maybe you'll even get to a point when they will be simply Jews, no matter what you call them they were once exiled from this land and they have every claim to it.
1. They were Europeans. They were European Jews. It's like referring to an Arab Muslim as Arab or Muslim.
2. Do you have any proof that the European Jews who lived in Europe were exiled from the land? Can't people convert to a religion? Ex: Khazzar tribe. They have as much claim to the land as the French did to Algeria, the British to Egypt, etc.
3. Even if there was some kind of proof that they were the descendants of the people exiled thousands of years ago... is that their claim? Or perhaps the good old "God gave it to us"? LMAO.
God told me that California is mine... let me take that to the government and ask them if I'm entitled to anything besides a trip to an institute for the mentally ill...
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This and the fact of persecution due to their religion and ethnic origin.
And since we're talking about converting now, Judasim is among the hardest if not the hardest religion to convert into, although Judasim was here long before Islam (which is much-much easier to convert into btw).
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This and the fact of persecution due to their religion and ethnic origin.
And since we're talking about converting now, Judasim is among the hardest if not the hardest religion to convert into, although Judasim was here long before Islam (which is much-much easier to convert into btw).
1. That's great, but what does persecution of Jews have to do with Palestine or the Palestinian people?
2. Are you telling me that every Jew in the world is a descendant of someone that was exiled thousands of years ago? And this must be "fact" of course, right? That would depend on if we're using the universal definition of fact... or your, the Zionist, version of the word fact...
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Funny that you don't see what persecution of Jews has to do with the need in a Jewish sovereign state. Maybe you should read Mein Kampf.
And I'll put it like this, most Jews are descendants of those who were exiled from this land, due to the religious wedding laws of the Halacha- as you know secularization among Jews is relatively a modern history phenomenon and even those who did become secular(last few centuries) couldn't really blend well in an anti-semite environment.
One way or another, Jews are among the best preserved ancient peoples, both due to anti-semitism and due to the religious laws that didn't allow non-Jewish wedding.
This is only the traditional aspect, don't forget that there is a practical aspect:Jews without national home equal extinction(holocaust)..... Arabs weren't threatened with extinction and they had a number of national homes by the time Israel was created, plus, the people who founded Israel agreed to yet another Arab state(on the territory they were hoping to have) while showing great sensitivity to the fact land was naturally being inhabited, especially such a central region.
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1.most Jews are descendants of those who were exiled from this land,
2. Arabs weren't threatened with extinction and they had a number of national homes by the time Israel was created, plus, the people who founded Israel agreed to yet another Arab state(on the territory they were hoping to have) while showing great sensitivity to the fact land was naturally being inhabited, especially such a central region.
1. Is that fact, or a conclusion you have reached? If you still don't know the difference, then go find out before you answer.
2. So what? So just because the Arabs weren't persecuted means the Zionists had a claim to their land? Great sensitivity to the fact that the land was naturally being inhabited? LOLLLLL please tell me this is a joke... I feel like I'm talking to a brick-wall, but at least a wall has a purpose
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Is that fact, or a conclusion you have reached?
It is a fact, and one that you need to know in order to debate on this matter.
Zionists had a claim to the land because Jews were persecuted-like you've inferred, if a Jewish State was to be placed at a diffferent location it would cause similar repercussions only that any other location would raise the question of entitlement to the land to an even higher bar(This means you simply oppose the idea of Jewish state anywhere), being that Jews essentially come from Judea as you know. The fact of the Arab People having a number of national homes by the time Israel was created showes Zionism was in no way a threat to the Arab People however it was somewhat of a threat to the Arab Leaderships along the Arab world and their liaisons within Eretz Yisrael, making their political claim to the land merely a ploy also due to the reason of the "indigenous Arab population" in the land undergoing massive European colonization throughout centuries without any opposition.
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Is that fact, or a conclusion you have reached?
It is a fact, and one that you need to know in order to debate on this matter.
Zionists had a claim to the land because Jews were persecuted-like you've inferred, if a Jewish State was to be placed at a diffferent location it would cause similar repercussions only that any other location would raise the question of entitlement to the land to an even higher bar(This means you simply oppose the idea of Jewish state anywhere), being that Jews essentially come from Judea as you know. The fact of the Arab People having a number of national homes by the time Israel was created showes Zionism was in no way a threat to the Arab People however it was somewhat of a threat to the Arab Leaderships along the Arab world and their liaisons within Eretz Yisrael, making their political claim to the land merely a ploy also due to the reason of the "indigenous Arab population" in the land undergoing massive European colonization throughout centuries without any opposition.
It was a threat to the indigenous population, today known as Palestinians. You can't make an argument saying "all Arabs are the same" and that these people had so many countries to go to.
Also, if you claim that all Jews are descendants of the same Jews who were sent into exile, then prove it. Are the Ethoipian Jews, the Chinese Jew in my class, you, and every other Jew descendant of the same group of people... and no Jews have since the exile been converts? You're really digging for straws. You lost the argument. European Jews have no claim to a certain land based on their religion.. if that were the case, then Arab Muslims should be entitled to their own country in Spain... it's nonsense.
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Its because we Muslims are sub human to the Jew....all the pussies talkin that dhimmi talk need to take a look at how Gods people view Goyims
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most Jews are descendants of those who were exiled from this land,
Khazars, Edomites, Ethiopians, Arabs in Yemen, Persians, etc... are you gonna deny and try to argue historic facts?
Can you see the difference between what you said and what I'm presenting? Yours is a conclusion you have reached based on your assumptions, limited knowledge, and common sense (which you obviously lack)... mine = FACT. If you don't believe me, do your own reseach. I'll even give you the name of the king under which the Khazars converted... Bulan. Next time don't step to a boss, you chump.
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It was a threat to the indigenous population, today known as Palestinians. You can't make an argument saying "all Arabs are the same" and that these people had so many countries to go to.
Also, if you claim that all Jews are descendants of the same Jews who were sent into exile, then prove it.
Semite-Jews are, meaning that most Jews are. According to the Halacha a person whose mother is Jewish is considered as Jewish.I'm saying that there were Arab states by the time Israel was created, meaning the Arab Nation's existence didn't depend on Zionism or on sovereignty over Eretz Yisrael in anyway,Palestinian Arab peasants are part of the Arab Nation and they never minded overlords(Life under colonization for centuries without opposition, Life as servants of wealthier Arabs), suddenly Zionism comes and they start seeking national identity in resistance of Zionism(a paradox of it's own- how can you both seek Palestinian self determination and Arab Unity at the same time?! Early Leader of the Palestinian Arabs recognizes the Zionist movement as a companion to their national movement before resistance erupts ) even though many Zionists support such ideas as a binational state and of two sovereign states .
Zionism appeared as a result of persecution of Jews.
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Semite-Jews are, meaning that most Jews are.
Gotcha. Check the statistics on what proportion of Jews are "Semite-Jews"... and what proportion are Ashkenazi. :) According to the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs... about 80% of the world's Jews are Ashkenazi... LOL I wonder how you're gonna try to blame this one on Palestinian leadership.
"Palestinian Arab peasants are part of the Arab Nation and they never minded overlords(Life under colonization for centuries without opposition, Life as servants of wealthier Arabs)"
Do your research on the mandates. The whole point was to create new states... Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Palestine. At first the Arabs of the Palestine mandate wanted to allign themselves with Greater Syria, but once Syria was established, and the increase in Zionist terrorists/colonizers... created a new Palestinian nationalism. What the fuck does it even matter if they never minded overlords before? They were living under the Ottoman Empire.. that's not colonization. Get your definitions straight, dumbfuck. You don't even know what the hell a fact is, and here you are talking about colonization. Servants of wealthier Arabs... again so what? Next time some Palestinian blows up some Jews in a bus, I should say "well Jews shouldn't mind that, they're used to anti-Semitism and persecution... what's the big fuss" ? Seriously, the way you try to justify an injustice is amazing. You're a fucking tool.
"Zionism appeared as a result of persecution of Jews."
Yeah, and you even tried to deny that those Zionists were European... LOLLLL get the fuck outta here
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Gotcha. Check the statistics on what proportion of Jews are "Semite-Jews"... and what proportion are Ashkenazi. :) According to the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs... about 80% of the world's Jews are Ashkenazi...
LMFAO, truly man, this is one of the most brilliant things you've ever contributed to this debate."Most Jews are Ashkenazi not Semite" ;D Now this is real simple homie, the Semitic group is a racial group-Arabs also belong to this group, Ashkenazi Jews are Semite Jews who have lived in Europe just like there are Arabs nowadays that live in Europe and in the USA, this does not stop them from being semites...:) There's a diff between the racial group and the geographic location, there are blacks that don't live in Africa as you might've heared. :)
Second, the fact these people have never before shown national identity under all kinds of occupations(a number of Empries ruled this land as you know) proves that their nationalism was eventually used merely as a tool to remove the Jews from the land and not to provide prosperity to the indigenous population, it resulted in harming this population.
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Gotcha. Check the statistics on what proportion of Jews are "Semite-Jews"... and what proportion are Ashkenazi. :) According to the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs... about 80% of the world's Jews are Ashkenazi...
LMFAO, truly man, this is one of the most brilliant things you've ever contributed to this debate."Most Jews are Ashkenazi not Semite" ;D Now this is real simple homie, the Semitic group is a racial group-Arabs also belong to this group, Ashkenazi Jews are Semite Jews who have lived in Europe just like there are Arabs nowadays that live in Europe and in the USA, this does not stop them from being semites...:) There's a diff between the racial group and the geographic location, there are blacks that don't live in Africa as you might've heared. :)
Second, the fact these people have never before shown national identity under all kinds of occupations(a number of Empries ruled this land as you know) proves that their nationalism was eventually used merely as a tool to remove the Jews from the land and not to provide prosperity to the indigenous population, it resulted in harming this population.
Smart one, you missed the whole point... there is no proof that those Ashkenazi Jews are all descendants of those who were sent into exile.... however there is evidence of entire populations converting to Judaism since. Get it? You tried to deny that. Go do some research on the Khazars, the Arabs in Yemen, the Ethipians, then come back and apologize to your teacher.
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lol Ashkenazi Semite Jews are, based on the fact they are Jews,a Jew is not only someone who followes Judasim(especially when there is secularization) but it is also an ethnic origin indication- people who come from Judea(the segregation throughout the centuries made the Jewish people to be the best preserved people), it's like saying Arabs in the USA aren't decendants of Arabs from the Arab peninsula(what by definition makes them Arab). Khazzars and Ethiopeans(and any other likely to have been converted) aren't semitic...Yeminite Jews are semites...I live among these people and it's also included in the basic education program. :)
And again, the one who's missing the point is you man because when it comes to Palestinian refugees you seem to disregard the idea of geographic origin by accepting every registered refugee as Palestinian(what is factualy untrue), according to this idea all Arabs should live in the Arab peninsula because that's were they originate from and since other land they possess nowadays was occupied, and I agree, but we're living in the real world.
P.S Funny how Hitler and other anti-semites(hence the term itself) identified Jews as semites when it served their goals to point out Jews had no place in Europe based on their place of origin(Jewish diaspora) and how nowadays anti-Israeli propagandists disclaim Jewish semitism to serve theirs.
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1. lol Ashkenazi Semite Jews are, based on the fact they are Jews,a Jew is not only someone who followes Judasim(especially when there is secularization) but it is also an ethnic origin indication- people who come from Judea(the segregation throughout the centuries made the Jewish people to be the best preserved people),
2. Khazzars (and any other likely to have been converted) aren't semitic...
Point 1 contradicts Point 2 because converted around the 8th century... and spread around Europe.... meaning the descendants are today considered Ashkenazi. Point 1 says these people are Semites... Point 2 says they aren't. LOLLLL typical Zionist... doesn't know the info, has been fed bullshit his entire life, and when he tries to argue, gets caught up in his own bullshit and lies.
And again, the one who's missing the point is you man because when it comes to Palestinian refugees you seem to disregard the idea of geographic origin by accepting every registered refugee as Palestinian(what is factualy untrue), according to this idea all Arabs should live in the Arab peninsula because that's were they originate from and since other land they possess nowadays was occupied, and I agree, but we're living in the real world.
Be it 10 Palestinian refugees, or 1 million... what difference does it make? They're victims of Zionism.
P.S Funny how Hitler and other anti-semites(hence the term itself) identified Jews as semites when it served their goals to point out Jews had no place in Europe based on their place of origin(Jewish diaspora) and how nowadays anti-Israeli propagandists disclaim Jewish semitism to serve theirs.
Well I'm sorry to not have taken into account the views of people like Hitler... I'll leave that job up to the Zionists who are committing crimes against the Palestinians.
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This only showes how grounded this whole Khazzar theory is.You can't trace it, you don't even know how many of them intermixed with Jews- and if they did their children are also descendants of exiled Jews...lol fucked yourself up, you can't bring figures, you're assuming just like you've assumed Palestinians are descendants of Canaanites to establish some sort of claim to the land. The Jewish people is the only people that was persecuted based on the claim it didn't belong anywhere else.
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This only showes how grounded this whole Khazzar theory is.You can't trace it, you don't even know how many of them intermixed with Jews- and if they did their children are also descendants of exiled Jews...lol fucked yourself up, you can't bring figures, you're assuming just like you've assumed Palestinians are descendants of Canaanites to establish some sort of claim to the land. The Jewish people is the only people that was persecuted based on the claim it didn't belong anywhere else.
1. Khazars converting to Judaism is fact, you retard. King Bulan converted, and over time Judaism was the accepted religion of the land.
2. You're right, I can't trace it, nor can I determine how many of them "intermixed" with Jews (Two Jews mixing = intermix?... LOL.. buy yourself a dictionary bitch).... "IF they "INTERMIXED", their children are also descendants of exiled Jews"... LOLLL the usual... I present a fact, you add your assumptions... why are Zionists so afraid of facts?
3. There is no debate on whether the Khazar population converted to Judaism or not. The only thing that's debated is if Ashkenazi Jews are PRIMARILY descendant of the Khazars.... meaning it is fact that a certain proportion are.... meaning I'm right, you're wrong... as always.
4. What do the Canaanites have to do with this? LOL I never even mentioned that Palestinians had a claim to the land based on that... only fools like you would use "we were here thousands of years ago" as a claim.... Palestinians have a claim to the land because they were living on it at the time the Zionists colonizers arrived.. how dumb do you have to be not to understand that?
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You're right, I can't trace it, nor can I determine how many of them "intermixed" with Jews (Two Jews mixing = intermix?... LOL.. buy yourself a dictionary bitch)....
Exactly...so why the fuck mention it if it has no point? Since you don't know I'll let you in on a little fact, a convert to Judasim according to the Halacha is not a Jew but a Gior(from the word Giur-convertion to Judaism) an intermix between a semite Jew and a non semite Gior still makes their offspring a descendant of an exiled Jew, or are you assuming that the original Jews simply died out? lost your point mate ;)
p.s Seems like you forgot that article you brought dicussing the Palestinian "Canaanite Origin" among other points that came to reinforce Palestinian entitlement. And if we're basing this on who was where first, Jews were on this land long before Arabs left the Arab peninsula in their conquest in the name of Islam that also didn't exist at the time.
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You're right, I can't trace it, nor can I determine how many of them "intermixed" with Jews (Two Jews mixing = intermix?... LOL.. buy yourself a dictionary bitch)....
Exactly...so why the fuck mention it if it has no point? Since you don't know I'll let you in on a little fact, a convert to Judasim according to the Halacha is not a Jew but a Gior(from the word Giur-convertion to Judaism) an intermix between a semite Jew and a non semite Gior still makes their offspring a descendant of an exiled Jew, or are you assuming that the original Jews simply died out? lost your point mate ;)
p.s Seems like you forgot that article you brought dicussing the Palestinian "Canaanite Origin" among other points that came to reinforce Palestinian entitlement. And if we're basing this on who was where first, Jews were on this land long before Arabs left the Arab peninsula in their conquest in the name of Islam that also didn't exist at the time.
It does have a point because it proves you wrong, and further proves that you're a brainwashed liar.
Fact is that a majority of the Jews today are Ashkenazi Jews.
Fact is that the Khazars converted to Judaism, and so did most of the people living in the lands under their control.
Fact is that a certain proportion of today's Ashkenazi Jews are therefore descendant of the converted Khazars... not those who were exiled. 1+1=2.
That's another fact,,, 1+1=2. If you want to argue that, go ahead...
I didn't lose my point, you lost your mind and any common sense you might have had.
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Fact is that a certain proportion of today's Ashkenazi Jews are therefore descendant of the converted Khazars... not those who were exiled. 1+1=2.
If you accept that Khazzar Giors didn't intermix with Semite(original) Jews(the only way how their descendants wouldn't qualify as descendants of exiled Jews) then Khazzars could have been easily traced, since you agree they can not be traced nowadays you have to accept that at least a portion(if not all) of Khazzar Giors intermixed with Jews making their offsprings descendants of those who were exiled as well. Since you can't bring figures and facts regarding the percentage of Khazar Giors passing for descendants of exiled Jews and since you have no proof the original Jews died out, in addition to the fact Jews were persecuted and segregated without anyone doing research on their genealogy while basing it on Jews (as a people) not belonging anywhere else, this theory is a tautology with the propagnada purpose of undermining Jewish claim to the Jewish Ancient Homeland or to any national sovereignty(It's not that Khazzars didn't convert, it simply has no impact on Jewish entitlement to the land ), HENCE, has no point.
And here's some info on the validity( since you again seem to be pulling shit out of your ass) of this theory:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazar
P.S FACT- Genetic researches on Ashkenazi Jews don't show any Khazar bloodline[ WHILE showing clear middle eastern(semite) origin-check the link] so it is possible Khazzars were simply lost at the ebb of their empire. It's too vague to base an argument, as for lack of Jewish entitlement, on it...talk about assumptions,propaganda and lies.
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See here's the thing...
I never stated that the "original Jews died out".
All I was doing is showing you that there are entire populations that have since converted to Judaism, which is what you were trying to deny. If they mixed or not... that's what you brought up, hence you have no point.
Look, I'll even use your wikipedia source to show you that once again I'm right.
"While these studies also show that some Ashkenazim have non-Jewish, Eastern European ancestors, they contradict claims that the Ashkenazim were primarily descended from Khazars."
Now let's look at what I said earlier... just to show you that I know what I'm talking about... that I present nothing but facts... and that you keep misinterpreting, and making assumptions based on your ignorance and lack of knowledge.
3. There is no debate on whether the Khazar population converted to Judaism or not. The only thing that's debated is if Ashkenazi Jews are PRIMARILY descendant of the Khazars.... meaning it is fact that a certain proportion are.... meaning I'm right, you're wrong... as always.
I even had it capitalized for you the first time... either you have trouble comprehending, or you simply choose to ignore this... which is what you usually do when you're faced with the fact that you're undeniably full of shit.
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"While these studies also show that some Ashkenazim have non-Jewish, Eastern European ancestors, they contradict claims that the Ashkenazim were primarily descended from Khazars."
It's funny how you're flip-floping man trying to rely on people not noticing how you've stepped on your own toes, you've quoted exactly what reinforces my point.
Check out what you said before:
Fact is that a certain proportion of today's Ashkenazi Jews are therefore descendant of the converted Khazars... not those who were exiled. 1+1=2.
Here's what the full quote sayes:
Current genetic studies show that "Jewish Y-DNA tends to come from the Middle East, and… studies that take into account mtDNA show that many Jewish populations are related to neighboring non-Jewish groups maternally". While these studies also show that some Ashkenazim have non-Jewish, Eastern European ancestors, they contradict claims that the Ashkenazim were primarily descended from Khazars.
Now look what I said:
Genetic researches on Ashkenazi Jews don't show any Khazar bloodline
CLOWN.
Meaning that even Jews who maternally weren't semite still didn't have any Khazar traces.
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I'm gonna show you how retarded you really are. I think your problem is you don't even know the definitions of words, and therefore can't fully comprehend what these things mean in English.
"While these studies also show that some Ashkenazim have non-Jewish, Eastern European ancestors, they contradict claims that the Ashkenazim were primarily descended from Khazars."
THEY CONTRADICT CLAIMS THAT THEY WERE PRIMARILY DESCENDED FROM KHAZARS... that means that a PROPORTION of them are.
It's funny how you're flip-floping man trying to rely on people not noticing how you've stepped on your own toes, you've quoted exactly what reinforces my point.
Check out what you said before:
Fact is that a certain proportion of today's Ashkenazi Jews are therefore descendant of the converted Khazars... not those who were exiled. 1+1=2.
Here's what the full quote sayes:
Current genetic studies show that "Jewish Y-DNA tends to come from the Middle East, and… studies that take into account mtDNA show that many Jewish populations are related to neighboring non-Jewish groups maternally". While these studies also show that some Ashkenazim have non-Jewish, Eastern European ancestors, they contradict claims that the Ashkenazim were
primarily descended from Khazars.
Now look what I said:
Genetic researches on Ashkenazi Jews don't show any Khazar bloodline
CLOWN.
This you got right... you are a fucking clown... you don't know the definition of the word fact, and now you don't even know what the fuck the word primarily means... and you're gonna try to step to a boss... you're not even close to being on my level..
Meaning that even Jews who maternally weren't semite still didn't have any Khazar traces.
Your original statement was: "Genetic researches on Ashkenazi Jews don't show any Khazar bloodline."
NOW YOU GOT OWNED.
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Here I'll make it easy for you... since you're so fucking dumb and easily confused...
P.S FACT- Genetic researches on Ashkenazi Jews don't show any Khazar bloodline
3. There is no debate on whether the Khazar population converted to Judaism or not. The only thing that's debated is if Ashkenazi Jews are PRIMARILY descendant of the Khazars.... meaning it is fact that a certain proportion are.... meaning I'm right, you're wrong... as always.
Now look at your source:
Here's what the full quote sayes:
Current genetic studies show that "Jewish Y-DNA tends to come from the Middle East, and… studies that take into account mtDNA show that many Jewish populations are related to neighboring non-Jewish groups maternally". While these studies also show that some Ashkenazim have non-Jewish, Eastern European ancestors, they contradict claims that the Ashkenazim were primarily descended from Khazars.
You said Ashkenazi Jews don't show ANY Khazar bloodline.
I said that a proportion of them do, but that research shows they aren't PRIMARILY descendants of the Khazars.
Your source says the exact same shit I did.
I'm right AS ALWAYS... you're wrong AS ALWAYS.
CASE CLOSED.
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The only thing that's debated is if Ashkenazi Jews are PRIMARILY descendant of the Khazars
Since this is "the only thing that's debated" and it got disproved and contradicted by a genetic research( not even something I needed to say 8)) my point has been proven, including the people with non-Jewish maternal characteristics having Jewish-semite paternal characteristics and making them descendants of exiled Jews.
LoL typing in big letters doesn't hide the fact you proved yourself to be also a master of setting yourself up :)
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The only thing that's debated is if Ashkenazi Jews are PRIMARILY descendant of the Khazars
Since this is "the only thing that's debated" and it got disproved and contradicted by a genetic research( not even something I needed to say 8)) my point has been proven.
LoL typing in big letters doesn't hide the fact you proved yourself to be also a master of setting yourself up :)
Yeah, the only thing that's contradicted is that they're PRIMARILY descended... you said "Genetic researches on Ashkenazi Jews don't show any Khazar bloodline"
Do you understand English? Primarily vs. Dont show any?
The only thing that's been proven is that I am once again right as always... and you're wrong and full of bullshit as always. Pretending not to understand English isn't going to hide the fact that you proved yourself to be a retard.
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Yeah, the only thing that's contradicted is that they're PRIMARILY descended
Which is the only thing that was debated :) like you said:
The only thing that's debated is if Ashkenazi Jews are PRIMARILY descendant of the Khazars....
MEANING THAT THE ONLY THING THAT'S DEBATED WAS DISPROVED.... 1+1
P.S Non-Jewish groups do not mean Khazar and this is while paternally they still were descendants of exiled Jews(intermix).
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The only thing debated by researchers, retard.... not what we were debating.
You really can't be this dumb, can you?
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there is no proof that those Ashkenazi Jews are all descendants of those who were sent into exile.... however there is evidence of entire populations converting to Judaism since.
This is what the argument was. I used the Khazars as an example. Then I proved you to be an idiot.
There is no way out of this for you... no matter how dumb you try to play.
You can do the IGeezy and... go with...
"IT'S NOT MY FAULT. I'M REALLY NOT RETARDED. I JUST HAVE TROUBLE THINKING BECAUSE OF ALL THE BOMBS GOING OFF HERE. IT'S THE PALESTINIAN LEADERSHIP'S FAULT!!!"
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you claim that all Jews are descendants of the same Jews who were sent into exile
Semite-Jews are, meaning that most Jews are.
Gotcha. Check the statistics on what proportion of Jews are "Semite-Jews"... and what proportion are Ashkenazi
FACT
Current genetic studies show that "Jewish Y-DNA tends to come from the Middle East
;)
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"Current genetic studies show that "Jewish Y-DNA tends to come from the Middle East, and… studies that take into account mtDNA show that many Jewish populations are related to neighboring non-Jewish groups maternally". While these studies also show that some Ashkenazim have non-Jewish, Eastern European ancestors, they contradict claims that the Ashkenazim were primarily descended from Khazars"
primarily = mainly
I win. You lose.
By the way, if the manner portrayed above is how you try to convince yourself that you were right... then we may as well all use the I Geezy method...
The Palestinian people ARE...VICTIMS OF ZIONISM
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:) Your'e Pathetic!
Even when you're proven wrong based on the shit you yourself bring up you simply disregard it. GOOD LUCK!
Mr "They aren't Semite they're Ashkenazi" LMFAO
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:) Your'e Pathetic!
LMAO.
Anyways... the fact that you tried to argue against facts made you dumb... but the fact that you can't even see when you're wrong, or won't admit it.... makes you a lot dumber than I thought.
I say they aren't primarily descended.... you say they aren't at all... your source says what I did... and you still think you're right... LOL.... you're a walking pro-choice advertisement.
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Here I'll make it easy for you... since you're so fucking dumb and easily confused...
P.S FACT- Genetic researches on Ashkenazi Jews don't show any Khazar bloodline
3. There is no debate on whether the Khazar population converted to Judaism or not. The only thing that's debated is if Ashkenazi Jews are PRIMARILY descendant of the Khazars.... meaning it is fact that a certain proportion are.... meaning I'm right, you're wrong... as always.
Now look at your source:
Here's what the full quote sayes:
Current genetic studies show that "Jewish Y-DNA tends to come from the Middle East, and… studies that take into account mtDNA show that many Jewish populations are related to neighboring non-Jewish groups maternally". While these studies also show that some Ashkenazim have non-Jewish, Eastern European ancestors, they contradict claims that the Ashkenazim were primarily descended from Khazars.
You said Ashkenazi Jews don't show ANY Khazar bloodline.
I said that a proportion of them do, but that research shows they aren't PRIMARILY descendants of the Khazars.
Your source says the exact same shit I did.
I'm right AS ALWAYS... you're wrong AS ALWAYS.
CASE CLOSED.
LOL. If you need any help defining words such as primarily, let me know... I'll be glad to assist you, my dumb child.
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lol
Genetic researches on Ashkenazi Jews don't show any Khazar bloodline
thus disproving that "Ashkenazi Jews were primarily descended from Khazars"
A researcher deals with science and facts and wouldn't say all Jews didn't have Khazar bloodline(even though his research didn't show any) because that would be a generalization(they didn't test every Ashkenazi Jew you know, therefore the word "primarily" is used). Generalization is something you're used to so I guess this is why it's so hard for you. What was being implied(-Jews not having any claim to the land because they're not descendants of exiled Jews) had been disproved and my point had been proven :).
P.S You should take reading comprehension classes mate, I told you long ago.
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LMAO. You just killed yourself.
You say researchers wouldn't state that no Ashkenazi Jew is descended from the Khazars because that would be a generalization... and you say that this is the reason why they didn't.
Now look at this very carefully. You say they wouldn't state it because it would be a generalization.... YET this is exactly what you stated.... hence you made the generalization... and then you go on to say that I'm the one with the generalizations. LOLLL... good one.
Next up, you say the reason they didn't state it is because it would be a generalization.... THAT'S YOUR ASSUMPTION.
For you to assume that no Ashkenazi Jew is descended of the Khazars would imply that all the Jews descended from the Khazars have died out.... the fact that the researchers used the word primarily is because it is a known fact that a proportion of Ashkenazi Jews MUST be descended from the Khazars unless they have died out, but there's no evidence of that. If such an assumption were to be made, it would be just as easy to assume that the descendants of the Jews sent into exile have died out... and LOLLLLLL.... weren't you the one bitching "Do you think that all the Jews who were exiled died out?" (and my answer was NO... because I'm not an idiot like you)
Anyways... I'm gonna stop pointing out why you're an idiot... because the more I type, the dumber you seem to get... so I'll just leave you with this... keep reading it over and over, since you have trouble comprehending... you'll see for yourself that you're a fucking retard...
Genetic researches on Ashkenazi Jews don't show any Khazar bloodline
A researcher deals with science and facts and wouldn't say all Jews didn't have Khazar bloodline because that would be a generalization. Generalization is something you're used to
LMAO. OWNED. 8)