Phil Jackson: "Kobe has patterned himself after Michael......he is not michael"

[Sccit]

So Kobe gets penalized from being part of the greatest 1-2 punch in history? lame argument, dicklickers.

No but the question lies in how effective that first punch either was or needed to be. Shaq in those years was a mid 80s Mike Tyson uppercut right on the chin. The first punch, the one that sets up the uppercut doesn't have to be dynamite left hook, which Kobe was. A solid left jab will be enough for the other fighter to respect it to leave some opening for the more forceful punch.

The Lakers really lost a step for a couple years when Kobe was trusted into the leader position. He has since more than made up for any criticism, but in the couple years after Shaq left it made me wonder how vital he really was to the 3-peat team. When Gretzky left the Oilers we saw that the punch that set up the hay-maker was a hay maker in itself with Messier, and we saw it right away. When Pippen took over for MJ they were still a hip skip and a jump away from another ring (I'm not sure that even with Jordan they would have won it all that year). When Shaq left they fell to under 500 with Kobe at the helm.

Like I said, Kobe has more than become everything you said he always was, I'm just not so sure he always was. Whether or not Kobe is is as good as Jordan or Magix now is one thing, but  I think that 3-peat team is at least a 4peat team with Magic, Larry, or MJ teamed up with Shaq. And you can add current Kobe to that list.

LOL...when the lakers lost shaq, they lost the whole team, shaq was not the only one who left. new system, new coach, new players, new team. the lakers were basically an expansion team rebuilding around kobe. when jordan left the bulls, the team was still left in tact- same system, same coach, same players, same everything, minus jordan...if anything, that simple fact should be an argument against jordan in this kobe-jordan debate. bulls were still a 55 win team who made it to the eastern conference semi-finals, without jordan. if kobe was not on the lakers these last few years, no way they are a 50 win team, let alone a playoff team. as for you acting like threepeating is some simply walk in the park, psssh, yeaa right. do u know how hard it is to threepeat? lakers barely won some of those series's during the threepeat era, we almost got knocked off by the blazers and the kings along the way, it is not something that just any duo out there coulda pulled off...and during that run, who was the one closing out games for the lakers during crunch time, carrying the lakers with huge clutch plays in those 4th quarters with shaq on the bench? none other than kobe..plus, kobe and shaq were statistically neck-and-neck in those threepeat years, so for u to sit there and act like anyone out there coulda replaced him and they still woulda threepeated and/or won more titles is pretty insane. don't forget that shaq himself proclaimed kobe "the best player in the world" during those glory years.. if the lakers woulda remained in tact when shaq left, things woulda played out a lot different. instead, we got rudy-t (who left midway through the season) and an expansion team with kobe on it. definitely not fair to judge kobe based on those dark rebuilding years.

[OG Jaydc]

Yeah the lakers magically made it by the kings based on skill and teamwork. LMAO

[Shallow]

So Kobe gets penalized from being part of the greatest 1-2 punch in history? lame argument, dicklickers.

No but the question lies in how effective that first punch either was or needed to be. Shaq in those years was a mid 80s Mike Tyson uppercut right on the chin. The first punch, the one that sets up the uppercut doesn't have to be dynamite left hook, which Kobe was. A solid left jab will be enough for the other fighter to respect it to leave some opening for the more forceful punch.

The Lakers really lost a step for a couple years when Kobe was trusted into the leader position. He has since more than made up for any criticism, but in the couple years after Shaq left it made me wonder how vital he really was to the 3-peat team. When Gretzky left the Oilers we saw that the punch that set up the hay-maker was a hay maker in itself with Messier, and we saw it right away. When Pippen took over for MJ they were still a hip skip and a jump away from another ring (I'm not sure that even with Jordan they would have won it all that year). When Shaq left they fell to under 500 with Kobe at the helm.

Like I said, Kobe has more than become everything you said he always was, I'm just not so sure he always was. Whether or not Kobe is is as good as Jordan or Magix now is one thing, but  I think that 3-peat team is at least a 4peat team with Magic, Larry, or MJ teamed up with Shaq. And you can add current Kobe to that list.

LOL...when the lakers lost shaq, they lost the whole team, shaq was not the only one who left. new system, new coach, new players, new team. the lakers were basically an expansion team rebuilding around kobe. when jordan left the bulls, the team was still left in tact- same system, same coach, same players, same everything, minus jordan...if anything, that simple fact should be an argument against jordan in this kobe-jordan debate. bulls were still a 55 win team who made it to the eastern conference semi-finals, without jordan. if kobe was not on the lakers these last few years, no way they are a 50 win team, let alone a playoff team. as for you acting like threepeating is some simply walk in the park, psssh, yeaa right. do u know how hard it is to threepeat? lakers barely won some of those series's during the threepeat era, we almost got knocked off by the blazers and the kings along the way, it is not something that just any duo out there coulda pulled off...and during that run, who was the one closing out games for the lakers during crunch time, carrying the lakers with huge clutch plays in those 4th quarters with shaq on the bench? none other than kobe..plus, kobe and shaq were statistically neck-and-neck in those threepeat years, so for u to sit there and act like anyone out there coulda replaced him and they still woulda threepeated and/or won more titles is pretty insane. don't forget that shaq himself proclaimed kobe "the best player in the world" during those glory years.. if the lakers woulda remained in tact when shaq left, things woulda played out a lot different. instead, we got rudy-t (who left midway through the season) and an expansion team with kobe on it. definitely not fair to judge kobe based on those dark rebuilding years.

I never said anyone could have been put in their for the 3-peat, I simply questioned how strong the first punch needed to be, and that Magic, Larry, or MJ would have lead to more than just 3 rings with Shaq. I also think the dark re-building Lakers would have gone farther faster with those 3 guys at the helm than they did with Kobe.

I'm also acknowledging that the current Kobe could have done all of what I said those 3 greats could have done. Laugh all you want, that's how I feel.

[.:DaYg0sTyLz:.]

So Kobe gets penalized for being part of the greatest 1-2 punch in history? lame argument, dicklickers.

Thats life. If Lebron wins a title alongside Wade, it wouldnt be viewed as great as it would if he did in Cleveland. Winning three titles as the #2 guy on the team will always be a part of Kobe's legacy, especially considering the fact that they sucked when Shaq left. Like it or not, thats just how it is. Like I said, he IS an all time great. But the bottom line is, he DOES have 2 titles as THE man for his team. He has 3 titles as the sidekick.

[Sccit]

So Kobe gets penalized from being part of the greatest 1-2 punch in history? lame argument, dicklickers.

No but the question lies in how effective that first punch either was or needed to be. Shaq in those years was a mid 80s Mike Tyson uppercut right on the chin. The first punch, the one that sets up the uppercut doesn't have to be dynamite left hook, which Kobe was. A solid left jab will be enough for the other fighter to respect it to leave some opening for the more forceful punch.

The Lakers really lost a step for a couple years when Kobe was trusted into the leader position. He has since more than made up for any criticism, but in the couple years after Shaq left it made me wonder how vital he really was to the 3-peat team. When Gretzky left the Oilers we saw that the punch that set up the hay-maker was a hay maker in itself with Messier, and we saw it right away. When Pippen took over for MJ they were still a hip skip and a jump away from another ring (I'm not sure that even with Jordan they would have won it all that year). When Shaq left they fell to under 500 with Kobe at the helm.

Like I said, Kobe has more than become everything you said he always was, I'm just not so sure he always was. Whether or not Kobe is is as good as Jordan or Magix now is one thing, but  I think that 3-peat team is at least a 4peat team with Magic, Larry, or MJ teamed up with Shaq. And you can add current Kobe to that list.

LOL...when the lakers lost shaq, they lost the whole team, shaq was not the only one who left. new system, new coach, new players, new team. the lakers were basically an expansion team rebuilding around kobe. when jordan left the bulls, the team was still left in tact- same system, same coach, same players, same everything, minus jordan...if anything, that simple fact should be an argument against jordan in this kobe-jordan debate. bulls were still a 55 win team who made it to the eastern conference semi-finals, without jordan. if kobe was not on the lakers these last few years, no way they are a 50 win team, let alone a playoff team. as for you acting like threepeating is some simply walk in the park, psssh, yeaa right. do u know how hard it is to threepeat? lakers barely won some of those series's during the threepeat era, we almost got knocked off by the blazers and the kings along the way, it is not something that just any duo out there coulda pulled off...and during that run, who was the one closing out games for the lakers during crunch time, carrying the lakers with huge clutch plays in those 4th quarters with shaq on the bench? none other than kobe..plus, kobe and shaq were statistically neck-and-neck in those threepeat years, so for u to sit there and act like anyone out there coulda replaced him and they still woulda threepeated and/or won more titles is pretty insane. don't forget that shaq himself proclaimed kobe "the best player in the world" during those glory years.. if the lakers woulda remained in tact when shaq left, things woulda played out a lot different. instead, we got rudy-t (who left midway through the season) and an expansion team with kobe on it. definitely not fair to judge kobe based on those dark rebuilding years.

I never said anyone could have been put in their for the 3-peat, I simply questioned how strong the first punch needed to be, and that Magic, Larry, or MJ would have lead to more than just 3 rings with Shaq. I also think the dark re-building Lakers would have gone farther faster with those 3 guys at the helm than they did with Kobe.

I'm also acknowledging that the current Kobe could have done all of what I said those 3 greats could have done. Laugh all you want, that's how I feel.

kobe was 20-22 in those 3peat years....there's no way magic, jordan, or bird would have done any better at that age. at that age, jordan, magic, and bird were still in college. what kobe was doing at that age was unheard of. in fact, one can go ahead and say that if shaq were replaced by kareem, hakeem, or wilt, kobe woulda won more titles during those years. argument can go either way, but it doesn't help to sit here and wonder "what if"...trust me, if you followed the lakers during those years, you would know just how special kobe's talent was, even in his younger days, and how vital that talent was to any success the lakers had.

[Sccit]

So Kobe gets penalized for being part of the greatest 1-2 punch in history? lame argument, dicklickers.

Thats life. If Lebron wins a title alongside Wade, it wouldnt be viewed as great as it would if he did in Cleveland. Winning three titles as the #2 guy on the team will always be a part of Kobe's legacy, especially considering the fact that they sucked when Shaq left. Like it or not, thats just how it is. Like I said, he IS an all time great. But the bottom line is, he DOES have 2 titles as THE man for his team. He has 3 titles as the sidekick.

sidekicks don't average around 30 points...it was not a sidekick situation, it was a 1-2 punch, and it was the greatest 1-2 punch in history...discrediting kobe's titles because he played with shaq would be like discrediting magic's titles because he played with kareem. not happenin'.

[.:DaYg0sTyLz:.]

So Kobe gets penalized for being part of the greatest 1-2 punch in history? lame argument, dicklickers.

Thats life. If Lebron wins a title alongside Wade, it wouldnt be viewed as great as it would if he did in Cleveland. Winning three titles as the #2 guy on the team will always be a part of Kobe's legacy, especially considering the fact that they sucked when Shaq left. Like it or not, thats just how it is. Like I said, he IS an all time great. But the bottom line is, he DOES have 2 titles as THE man for his team. He has 3 titles as the sidekick.

sidekicks don't average around 30 points...it was not a sidekick situation, it was a 1-2 punch, and it was the greatest 1-2 punch in history...discrediting kobe's titles because he played with shaq would be like discrediting magic's titles because he played with kareem. not happenin'.

Then why does the rest of the world see him as the #2 guy on those teams with Shaq? lol. The rest of the world doesnt see Magic as the #2 guy on his titles with Kareem. They DO with Kobe. Maybe the entire world is wrong, outside of Kobe fans.

[Sccit]

So Kobe gets penalized for being part of the greatest 1-2 punch in history? lame argument, dicklickers.

Thats life. If Lebron wins a title alongside Wade, it wouldnt be viewed as great as it would if he did in Cleveland. Winning three titles as the #2 guy on the team will always be a part of Kobe's legacy, especially considering the fact that they sucked when Shaq left. Like it or not, thats just how it is. Like I said, he IS an all time great. But the bottom line is, he DOES have 2 titles as THE man for his team. He has 3 titles as the sidekick.

sidekicks don't average around 30 points...it was not a sidekick situation, it was a 1-2 punch, and it was the greatest 1-2 punch in history...discrediting kobe's titles because he played with shaq would be like discrediting magic's titles because he played with kareem. not happenin'.

Then why does the rest of the world see him as the #2 guy on those teams with Shaq? lol. The rest of the world doesnt see Magic as the #2 guy on his titles with Kareem. They DO with Kobe. Maybe the entire world is wrong, outside of Kobe fans.

maybe that's because the offense ran through shaq, as a triangle offense traditionally should.....okay, lets flip it around. are you gunna discredit karreem's 5 titles because he got them with magic? most people saw magic as the first option on that team, but that doesn't mean kareem wasn't just as vital. in fact, kareem is considered by most the greatest center of all time...try twistin that one up LOL.

[wcsoldier]

There are lot of interesting things to discuss in B-Ball besides MJ , Kobe , Shaq , Lebron , the Lakers and the Heat ... trust me 

[Shallow]

kobe was 20-22 in those 3peat years....there's no way magic, jordan, or bird would have done any better at that age. at that age, jordan, magic, and bird were still in college. what kobe was doing at that age was unheard of. in fact, one can go ahead and say that if shaq were replaced by kareem, hakeem, or wilt, kobe woulda won more titles during those years. argument can go either way, but it doesn't help to sit here and wonder "what if"...trust me, if you followed the lakers during those years, you would know just how special kobe's talent was, even in his younger days, and how vital that talent was to any success the lakers had.

I don't think more titles but maybe just as many, but those 3 Centers would have been the leaders on that team.

And what Larry did in that last year of college and that first year on the Celtics Kobe wasn't able to do until very recently. Fuck numbers, I could get in that all day with my QB debates, this is about being able to carry guys that wouldn't even know what playoffs were if anyone else was on that team. Not Jordan, not Magic, not fucking Ben Hur, could have taken that 79/80 Celtics to the playoffs in their rookie years. I wonder if they could have even done it in their prime. Had Larry started with Kareem, and Magic with a bunch of scrubs (no McHale or Parrish yet) there may not have even been much a rivalry.

I'll debate Magic vs Larry as players, but not as leaders. And that first year Celtic team needed a better leader than player.

[.:DaYg0sTyLz:.]

So Kobe gets penalized for being part of the greatest 1-2 punch in history? lame argument, dicklickers.

Thats life. If Lebron wins a title alongside Wade, it wouldnt be viewed as great as it would if he did in Cleveland. Winning three titles as the #2 guy on the team will always be a part of Kobe's legacy, especially considering the fact that they sucked when Shaq left. Like it or not, thats just how it is. Like I said, he IS an all time great. But the bottom line is, he DOES have 2 titles as THE man for his team. He has 3 titles as the sidekick.

sidekicks don't average around 30 points...it was not a sidekick situation, it was a 1-2 punch, and it was the greatest 1-2 punch in history...discrediting kobe's titles because he played with shaq would be like discrediting magic's titles because he played with kareem. not happenin'.

Then why does the rest of the world see him as the #2 guy on those teams with Shaq? lol. The rest of the world doesnt see Magic as the #2 guy on his titles with Kareem. They DO with Kobe. Maybe the entire world is wrong, outside of Kobe fans.

maybe that's because the offense ran through shaq, as a triangle offense traditionally should.....okay, lets flip it around. are you gunna discredit karreem's 5 titles because he got them with magic? most people saw magic as the first option on that team, but that doesn't mean kareem wasn't just as vital. in fact, kareem is considered by most the greatest center of all time...try twistin that one up LOL.

I wouldnt discredit Kareems titles with Magic, because like most people...I dont see one of the two as being more of a focal point of those teams. There is a bit of a difference when you are looking at a PG anyways. Look at Stockton and Malone. The two arent in competition as to who the focal point is. With Shaq and Kobe, they were both score first guys. Their jobs, offensively, were to put the ball in the basket. Kobe was feeding off of Shaq though. And it has nothing to do with the triangle. That would have been the case in any offense. Shaq gets the ball first, tries to create..if he is doubled (which he was most of the time back then) he kicks it out to an open shooter, a slashing Kobe, etc.

If it makes you feel any better, Robinson is one of the greatest Centers ever. But a title withOUT Duncan would have meant more to his legacy than a title WITH Duncan. True any title is better than none at all. But not all titles are weighed evenly.

[BiggSadot]

So Kobe gets penalized for being part of the greatest 1-2 punch in history? lame argument, dicklickers.

Thats life. If Lebron wins a title alongside Wade, it wouldnt be viewed as great as it would if he did in Cleveland. Winning three titles as the #2 guy on the team will always be a part of Kobe's legacy, especially considering the fact that they sucked when Shaq left. Like it or not, thats just how it is. Like I said, he IS an all time great. But the bottom line is, he DOES have 2 titles as THE man for his team. He has 3 titles as the sidekick.

This

[Mietek23]

So Kobe gets penalized for being part of the greatest 1-2 punch in history? lame argument, dicklickers.

Thats life. If Lebron wins a title alongside Wade, it wouldnt be viewed as great as it would if he did in Cleveland. Winning three titles as the #2 guy on the team will always be a part of Kobe's legacy, especially considering the fact that they sucked when Shaq left. Like it or not, thats just how it is. Like I said, he IS an all time great. But the bottom line is, he DOES have 2 titles as THE man for his team. He has 3 titles as the sidekick.

With that being said, Kobe is a great player, the best the game has today and will go off as one of the all time greats BUT like Phil said - HE IS NOT MJ AND NEVER WILL BE. He's unique in his own way but comparing him and everyone else to Jordan is just unfair. If you look at what Michael did on and off the basketball court - it's just ridiculous to compare anyone to him and no matter what Kobe will do in the few more years he's got left, he will always be number 2 behind Mike.. and it's a great accomplish in it's own way - he's the closest one we've seen.

BUT Michael fuckin' Jeffrey Jordan is the G.O.A.T. - point blank.

[wcsoldier]

There are two things than make MJ better than Kobe : shooting efficiency and MJ first three finals are out of this world , Kobe production in the finals has been average ... but this topic didn't really to be discussed for the 14445855544 times

[Sccit]

kobe was 20-22 in those 3peat years....there's no way magic, jordan, or bird would have done any better at that age. at that age, jordan, magic, and bird were still in college. what kobe was doing at that age was unheard of. in fact, one can go ahead and say that if shaq were replaced by kareem, hakeem, or wilt, kobe woulda won more titles during those years. argument can go either way, but it doesn't help to sit here and wonder "what if"...trust me, if you followed the lakers during those years, you would know just how special kobe's talent was, even in his younger days, and how vital that talent was to any success the lakers had.

I don't think more titles but maybe just as many, but those 3 Centers would have been the leaders on that team.

And what Larry did in that last year of college and that first year on the Celtics Kobe wasn't able to do until very recently. Fuck numbers, I could get in that all day with my QB debates, this is about being able to carry guys that wouldn't even know what playoffs were if anyone else was on that team. Not Jordan, not Magic, not fucking Ben Hur, could have taken that 79/80 Celtics to the playoffs in their rookie years. I wonder if they could have even done it in their prime. Had Larry started with Kareem, and Magic with a bunch of scrubs (no McHale or Parrish yet) there may not have even been much a rivalry.

I'll debate Magic vs Larry as players, but not as leaders. And that first year Celtic team needed a better leader than player.

LMAO...I don't think you realize that Magic, as a rookie, won the title without Kareem. when Kareem went down with an injury, Magic started the title game for the Lakers at CENTER, as a muthafuckin rookie...i'm sorry, but nothing Larry Legend did in his rookie year could rival that, no matter how hard u sit there and try pushing "Larry>Magic"...Magic was an amazing player, as was Bird, but Magic was able to do things Larry could only dream of.


still, neither Magic nor Bird were able to threepeate...Kobe is on the verge of doing it for a second time, with a lesser supporting cast.