To the muthaphukka that said....

[M Dogg™]

Shit... I would say the 2003 Bengals would handle the '72 Dolphines... Barry Bonds would out slug Hank Aaron, and Shaq would kill Wilt. All true, but Ali lose, I can't see it in his prime. He had something I've only seen in Jordan, that's greatness. Lewis would whip the shit out of Frazier, Norton, Holmes, shit, Tua would, but Ali is something different. Joe Luis, the first greatest of all times would get beat bad. But Ali was just that damn great. Roy, that would be a great fight. I ain't arguing past vs. present, I think the present would win, but nothing beats greatness, a person who will die before he loses. Someone that will play very sick, fight through a broken jaw and win (Ali did that). Modern days can beat old days, but no one can beat greatness. Greatness ages, like Jordan and Ali, but greatness last along time, and greatness is forever remembered. Only two athletes I think are great, and at anytime, no one can beat them.

[.:DayGoStyLz:.]

Shit... I would say the 2003 Bengals would handle the '72 Dolphines... Barry Bonds would out slug Hank Aaron, and Shaq would kill Wilt. All true, but Ali lose, I can't see it in his prime.

didnt Frazier beat him?

As for tha whole "greatness" thing. True he was great, but the great can be beatin too. EVERYONE has some out there, better then them. EVERYONE. Jordan is the greatest basketball player of all time, but guess what...in 30 yrs there will be someone better. As hard, or for some, even impossible to imagine....its true. No one EVER thought theres be a better player then Babe Ruth. No one ever thought thered be a better runner then Walter Payton. No one ever thought thered be a Professional Golfer that was black, let alone...be the best in the world, maybe the best ever. No one ever thought there would be a better boxer then Joe Louis, then came Ali. People, in this area...always improve.  U could say Ali was the greatest boxer ever, for his time in history. But Ali wouldnt go the distance with todays fighters.

Remember, the older fighters paved the way...in more ways then one. The reason newer generation fighters/players (depending on what sport) are always better then the past fighters/players...is because they have the chance to learn from the past. They can incorporate that things that made those PAST fighters great, as well as use modern technology to train...and improve upon what past fighters did.

[M Dogg™]

When someone takes an old player, and ranks them with modern players, and says they can beat them, what they are saying is, is that player/fighter, had something that will not let them lose until they are older. When Ali lost to Frazier, he had just cameback from along lay off, and wasn't ready to fight the heavyweight champion of the world. But, he did a great job, and never gave up. Ali didn't lose again for years. Lewis is so big, but he mainly jabs and then sets up for his right hand. If I've seen a lot of Ali fights, then I've too many Lewis fights. He uses his reach, his ring smarts, and his power to over wealm people. David Tua, goood power punch, couldn't get through, Mike Tyson, the same, Holyfield, was a thinker but Lewis was too big. Style is everything, and Lewis style is perfect for beating the modern era fighters of the Frazier, Ali, Tyson, Holyfield generation. The problem is, is that Ali is the greatest. Ali beat the Fraziers, the Foremans, the Listons, even Michael Spinks, the 70's version of Roy Jones. Ali's style was fast, hand speed of a middleweight, foot speed of welterweight, detremation of a true champion, and unlike Lewis, a chin that wouldn't fall, even when broken. Ali talked big, and backed it up. Ask Lewis, he'll tell you Ali was the greatest. Ask any boxer, and they'll tell you, because if Ali was around today, he would not allow himself to lose, he'll think of something. Rope-a-dope was thought up of in the ring against a bigger, more powerful, and skillful George Foreman. Ali was scared of people, yeah, but then he would take that fear, and beat the shit out of someone. He was the most skilled heavyweight that ever lived.

As for Roy, I too think we are looking at the greatest pound for pound fighter ever. Whatever doubt I had before, he disproved it beating a man 30 pounds heavier. Roy has to be the greatest pound per pound. If him at 199, vs. Ali at 215, I think it would be the greatest fight see in the heavyweight division ever. Roy is just too damn good. Ali though is too damn great, 'cause Roy wouldn't get hit, Ali is fast enought to catch him. Ali was fast as shit, and punched Liston in .3 seconds. A punch that couldn't be seen unless you slow the tape down. Ali was just damn fast, faster than any boxer today still. Roy is close though, and Roy as a heavyweight vs. a young Ali, I would pay $100 for that pay-per-view. Lewis, well, he will have his place in history, but next to Ali, not ever, he ain't got greatness, his just very good, which is better than Tyson, Holmes, Spinks, even Frazier. but greatness is something different. Like Jordan changing his style to a mare shooting base game to win after being the most athletic, or Ali changing to a more flat footed slugger after losing speed. Greatness changes, Greatness can win at any era. Only two athletes I think were great, and Payton, Brown, and Montana are close, but only two I think were just great. Maybe Montana, that's to be seen what else comes.

[.:DayGoStyLz:.]

Roy is just too damn good. Ali though is too damn great, 'cause Roy wouldn't get hit, Ali is fast enought to catch him. Ali was fast as shit, and punched Liston in .3 seconds. A punch that couldn't be seen unless you slow the tape down.

theres no way in the world Ali could catch up to Jones. Ali was a quick heavyweight, yes....for HIS time. Not this one. As for that Liston punch....lol@ Liston taking a dive.

[M Dogg™]

Roy is just too damn good. Ali though is too damn great, 'cause Roy wouldn't get hit, Ali is fast enought to catch him. Ali was fast as shit, and punched Liston in .3 seconds. A punch that couldn't be seen unless you slow the tape down.

theres no way in the world Ali could catch up to Jones. Ali was a quick heavyweight, yes....for HIS time. Not this one. As for that Liston punch....lol@ Liston taking a dive.

Son, Now I Know you just talking... lol... NIK.

Anyways, Ali was fast as hell, fastest heavyweight ever, I guess next to Roy now. But Ali wouldn't lose. Roy's never took a hit. Hell, he has just trashed all his opponites. Ali had middleweight hand speed, even for todays fighters. I think Ali takes that fight, barely, 'cause Roy has what Ali had, too much pride. That's it, pride, who wants it more. That's who wins, and Ali and Jordan are the only two that are on top of that.

[Citizen-Y]

...we could debate this for weeks...but you bring up a good point...this is the greatest era of heavyweights...
SNIP

If you believe that than I pity you and the rest of your offspring.

[.:DayGoStyLz:.]

Son, Now I Know you just talking... lol... NIK.

Anyways, Ali was fast as hell, fastest heavyweight ever, I guess next to Roy now. But Ali wouldn't lose. Roy's never took a hit. Hell, he has just trashed all his opponites. Ali had middleweight hand speed, even for todays fighters. I think Ali takes that fight, barely, 'cause Roy has what Ali had, too much pride. That's it, pride, who wants it more. That's who wins, and Ali and Jordan are the only two that are on top of that.

so u honestly dont believe that athletes get better over time? Even professional athletes will admit that. Evander talked about it before in an interview. When asked how he would compare to Ali...he said, "id beat him". It sounded crazy to some of the people in tha audience at first, but when he went on to explain, everybody understood. Not that he's "better" then Ali for HIS time. But he went on to explain, that training methods just improve. Fighters learn from past fighters. And ALWAYS improve. He didnt jus say, that he's better then Ali. But that, 20 yrs from now...someone else will be better then him, or Tyson, or whoever. It ALWAYS happens. Ali might have done the most for the sport of boxing (still up for debate, Joe Louis), but that doesnt change the fact that he couldnt beat heavyweights today, including Roy Jones.
   I know youve watched old clips of NBA games right? Games back when shit was still black and white on tha tv lol. Some of the GREATest players of all time, didnt even dribble the ball with their left. I mean, shit that 4 yr olds do today! U think Basketball is the only sport where this happens? Hell naw. Athletes get bigger, faster, and more skilled. Fact.
   Ali was great, maybe the title "Greatest of all Time" fits him. But that doesnt change the fact that theres no way he'd win in todays era. Even the great Middleweights, etc. that we used to have, (Sugar Ray, Hagler, Tommy Hearns, etc) would git KO'd by sum1 like Roy Jones (in his lighter dayz), or many other people now.

[M Dogg™]

I'm not debating old vs. new. Older athletes don't have the training and steriods... I mean medical advances of today. Shit, it would be a whip out for new athletes to beat on old onces. But Ali was in a class in his own... IMO. He stood for more to boxing than anyone, and he battled giants (Foreman, who was winning as an old man still), warriors (Holmes, who still beats on younger people 'till he was like 47) and in his day, the old legands (beat the shit out of Floyd Paterson). Ali was a legand, he was great, he had a versital fighting still. Never has anyone made up for lack of speed and size like Ali did in his older days, when he was wahed up and still winning. Andas I said, Roy is going to that level. Roy is the greatest pound per pound fighter ever. Better than Sugar Ray Robinson, Lenard, (this is a Mexican saying this so you know it must be true) Julio Caeser Chavez, De La Hoya, anyone. Roy is one of the greatest. He beat Hopkins, and everyone else. Roy and Ali are in the same class. That's a given. Lewis is up there by just size, but not skill. His style is  too plain, jab and set up for the right. Can beat Tyson, Frazier, Holyfield, and Liston. No questions aske, Lewis is the most physically dominating champion ever. But who would win a one on one game, Shaq or Jordan, both in there prime. Or would you draft Joe Montana or Jeff George. George was physically dominate of Montana in every catigory. I agree, present beats the past. But as I said, Greatness beats all.

[.:DayGoStyLz:.]

I'm not debating old vs. new. Older athletes don't have the training and steriods... I mean medical advances of today. Shit, it would be a whip out for new athletes to beat on old onces. But Ali was in a class in his own... IMO. He stood for more to boxing than anyone, and he battled giants (Foreman, who was winning as an old man still), warriors (Holmes, who still beats on younger people 'till he was like 47) and in his day, the old legands (beat the shit out of Floyd Paterson). Ali was a legand, he was great, he had a versital fighting still. Never has anyone made up for lack of speed and size like Ali did in his older days, when he was wahed up and still winning. Andas I said, Roy is going to that level. Roy is the greatest pound per pound fighter ever. Better than Sugar Ray Robinson, Lenard, (this is a Mexican saying this so you know it must be true) Julio Caeser Chavez, De La Hoya, anyone. Roy is one of the greatest. He beat Hopkins, and everyone else. Roy and Ali are in the same class. That's a given. Lewis is up there by just size, but not skill. His style is  too plain, jab and set up for the right. Can beat Tyson, Frazier, Holyfield, and Liston. No questions aske, Lewis is the most physically dominating champion ever. But who would win a one on one game, Shaq or Jordan, both in there prime. Or would you draft Joe Montana or Jeff George. George was physically dominate of Montana in every catigory. I agree, present beats the past. But as I said, Greatness beats all.

^^first off, Chavez was garbage LOL!! 90% of his fights were against who? I bet even the biggest Chavez fan could only name 10 of his opponents ever lol. He lived of a big number of victories, without really fighting contenders. De La Hoya...also trash. Highly overrated IMO. He quit the game for a bit, to get away from Mosley. Trinidad beat him, before gettin TAPPED by Hopkins. Pernell beat him, but got cheated out of the shit.

As for the steriods, they were far more popular among pro athletes about 15-20 yrs ago, then they are now. And todayz athletes would run over those of 15-20 yrs ago.

And as for Ali, theres no debating hes a legend. Theres no debating what he's done. Theres no debating any of that. I luv Ali, i just know he cant win in this era.

[M Dogg™]

^^first off, Chavez was garbage LOL!! 90% of his fights were against who? I bet even the biggest Chavez fan could only name 10 of his opponents ever lol. He lived of a big number of victories, without really fighting contenders. De La Hoya...also trash. Highly overrated IMO. He quit the game for a bit, to get away from Mosley. Trinidad beat him, before gettin TAPPED by Hopkins. Pernell beat him, but got cheated out of the shit.

And as for Ali, theres no debating hes a legend. Theres no debating what he's done. Theres no debating any of that. I luv Ali, i just know he cant win in this era.

LOL... don't talk about Chavez, he was great... lol. I know about Chavez, but if a Mexican can admit someone is better than him, you ain't knowing, it's huge. I wouldn't put someone that high unless I mean it.

Back to Ali. Lets face, an old George Foreman was winning in these era. Nuff said, case close. Bigger isn't better, just bigger with skillz is. Those Klitschko might be the next greatest to step in the ring. 6'7", 250 lbs. apiece. And both are extremely skilled. Ali was 6'3" 220, and Lewis is 6'5" 240. Those brothers are bigger than both, just too much to beat. Why would Lewis fight them, 'cause they are as much bigger to him as he is to Ali. Now that's phyisically dominating.

[M Dogg™]

http://espn.go.com/boxing/columns/kellerman_max/1518714.html

An article backing your claim with Roy Jones Jr. Might have to agree, Roy is just the shit, and is pound for pound the greatest ever, no questions asked. So a gift from me to you ToNe. Enjoy, it's all true.

[.:DayGoStyLz:.]

^^first off, Chavez was garbage LOL!! 90% of his fights were against who? I bet even the biggest Chavez fan could only name 10 of his opponents ever lol. He lived of a big number of victories, without really fighting contenders. De La Hoya...also trash. Highly overrated IMO. He quit the game for a bit, to get away from Mosley. Trinidad beat him, before gettin TAPPED by Hopkins. Pernell beat him, but got cheated out of the shit.

And as for Ali, theres no debating hes a legend. Theres no debating what he's done. Theres no debating any of that. I luv Ali, i just know he cant win in this era.

LOL... don't talk about Chavez, he was great... lol. I know about Chavez, but if a Mexican can admit someone is better than him, you ain't knowing, it's huge. I wouldn't put someone that high unless I mean it.

Back to Ali. Lets face, an old George Foreman was winning in these era. Nuff said, case close. Bigger isn't better, just bigger with skillz is. Those Klitschko might be the next greatest to step in the ring. 6'7", 250 lbs. apiece. And both are extremely skilled. Ali was 6'3" 220, and Lewis is 6'5" 240. Those brothers are bigger than both, just too much to beat. Why would Lewis fight them, 'cause they are as much bigger to him as he is to Ali. Now that's phyisically dominating.

lol@ Chavez....i got mexican homies, and they dont even like Chavez. They think he fulla shit, and overrated, and a strait up bitch really. Im like them, fuk Chavez, fuk De La Hoya...i prefer Barrera regardless.

[M Dogg™]

lol@ Chavez....i got mexican homies, and they dont even like Chavez. They think he fulla shit, and overrated, and a strait up bitch really. Im like them, fuk Chavez, fuk De La Hoya...i prefer Barrera regardless.

Barrera is the fucken shit. I love that man. I agree, Chavez was overrated, but he fought battles, and he would slug it out with anyone. Chavez for Presidente de Mexico