Any Fight Fans?

[whoisthis]

Surprised to not see any major topics in regards to Boxing or MMA floating around.

Boxing has had a great year this year. MMA's struggled, in my mind, due to injuries to some of it's bigger names, but is still going strong.

What fights are people most looking forward to?

[Hack Wilson - real]

MMA is basically mandingo cock fighting so you might get a response from Elano


i did watch the lsat Mayweather fight, hoping he'd lose

[whoisthis]

Mayweather vs Guerrero was a laugher from the moment it was announced. I was live at the fight when Guerrero beat Berto and called out Floyd. I told my wife then that he was not ready. He got in the ring and got worked.

Canelo, I feel, is still too young to fight Floyd. Plus he's got really questionable stamina, which is a must against Floyd. If he's able to tag Floyd early and hurt Floyd, he has a shot. But, if by round 4 it's 3-0 Floyd on the cards, it's over. Floyd's confidence will be sky high and Canelo will play right into his hands.

Honestly, I think only Pac-Man has a real shot at beating Floyd. He's fast enough. He doesn't just throw a straight jab, he throws at weird angles and is constantly pressuring fighters, which Floyd hates. But, that's a pipe dream and will never happen.

[Hack Wilson - real]

yeah Pacman vs Floyd would have been amazing 1-2 years ago.....right now it'd still be good but those two hate each other and will never agree on a date until they are both way past their primes

[whoisthis]

yeah Pacman vs Floyd would have been amazing 1-2 years ago.....right now it'd still be good but those two hate each other and will never agree on a date until they are both way past their primes

No doubt about the fact that a fight with Floyd and Manny 2 years ago would've been HUGE. This fight with Canelo is going to be the biggest PPV in fight history probably, but it would've been nothing compared to what Floyd/Manny could've been.

The problem then was Golden Boy being upset with Manny that they were no longer able to get a cut of his fights, as Top Rank was his outright promoter (they used to split Manny). After that, the pissing match between Arum and De La Hoya started. Small time fights were being made and so on. So, the promoters screwed that up then. Now, Floyd is pissing all over the fight even though Manny is offering him a fair deal. Floyd will never accept someones offer, he feels he's lost then. The deal HAS to be in his favor and has to be his idea. So, it'll probably never happen.

[Nutty]

Looking forward to the next mayweather fight. Dudes just on another level.

[DeeezNuuuts83]

This fight with Canelo is going to be the biggest PPV in fight history probably, but it would've been nothing compared to what Floyd/Manny could've been.

While I agree with the latter, I disagree with the former.  Mayweather-Alvarez has no chance of beating De La Hoya-Mayweather as the biggest PPV fight in history.  Alvarez doesn't have THAT big of a following, and the fact that HD PPV boxing fight prices (I hear that this one is supposed to be $75) isn't helping.

The problem then was Golden Boy being upset with Manny that they were no longer able to get a cut of his fights, as Top Rank was his outright promoter (they used to split Manny). After that, the pissing match between Arum and De La Hoya started. Small time fights were being made and so on. So, the promoters screwed that up then. Now, Floyd is pissing all over the fight even though Manny is offering him a fair deal. Floyd will never accept someones offer, he feels he's lost then. The deal HAS to be in his favor and has to be his idea. So, it'll probably never happen.

Top Rank and Golden Boy didn't exactly "used to split Manny."  It was just some legal agreement that came about since Golden Boy was going to sign Manny (and he had accepted a cash bonus), though Top Rank convinced Manny to sign with them instead, and he returned the bonus to Golden Boy, who argued in court that Manny's original acceptance of the bonus enacted the contract.  The court ruled that Manny was with Top Rank and not Golden Boy, but Golden Boy would get a small cut of what Manny's fights grossed for a certain length of time.  During that time, Top Rank and Golden Boy tried to play nice with each other and set up fights together (i.e. Pacquiao-Marquez II, De La Hoya-Pacquiao, Mosley-Margarito, Pacquiao-Hatton).  De La De La Hoya-Cotto was planned, but it got canned when Cotto lost to Margarito.  After that, he was considering fighting either Hatton or Pacquiao.  (A lot of people who discredit Pacquiao's victory over Oscar by saying that Oscar had to drop down to 147 for him don't realize that he was planning to go down to welterweight anyway, against Cotto.).

I agree though about the Floyd shit.  But when he's undefeated and the biggest draw, it's kind of hard to convince him to let someone else dictate the terms.  But it's still fucked up when he goes back on his word and puts up new roadblocks.  But again, he's in a position to fuck with people like that.

Though he needs to stop with the punk ass fights against lame opponents (i.e. Ortiz and Guerrero).  But I don't doubt that Golden Boy is hoping to set up Mayweather-Khan at some point.

[Remedy360]

MMA is basically mandingo cock fighting so you might get a response from Elano


i did watch the lsat Mayweather fight, hoping he'd lose

UFC is very entertaining, if all you can think of is "mandingo cock fighting" your heads in the wrong place bro. And to each his own but MMA is lightyears ahead of boxing in terms of entertainment.

[DeeezNuuuts83]

MMA is basically mandingo cock fighting so you might get a response from Elano


i did watch the lsat Mayweather fight, hoping he'd lose

UFC is very entertaining, if all you can think of is "mandingo cock fighting" your heads in the wrong place bro. And to each his own but MMA is lightyears ahead of boxing in terms of entertainment.

It's run more efficiently because egos don't get in the way they do in boxing, especially with there not being the huge issue of promoters butting heads, or fighters not wanting to fight other fighters for whatever reason.

[Hack Wilson - real]

MMA is basically mandingo cock fighting so you might get a response from Elano


i did watch the lsat Mayweather fight, hoping he'd lose

UFC is very entertaining, if all you can think of is "mandingo cock fighting" your heads in the wrong place bro. And to each his own but MMA is lightyears ahead of boxing in terms of entertainment.

lmao the mandingo cockfighting line is from a photo i found haha


i've watched some MMA at other peoples places but it's not anything i care for.  i might watch ronda rousy fight meesha tate simply because those two TRULY hate eachother

[whoisthis]

This fight with Canelo is going to be the biggest PPV in fight history probably, but it would've been nothing compared to what Floyd/Manny could've been.

While I agree with the latter, I disagree with the former.  Mayweather-Alvarez has no chance of beating De La Hoya-Mayweather as the biggest PPV fight in history.  Alvarez doesn't have THAT big of a following, and the fact that HD PPV boxing fight prices (I hear that this one is supposed to be $75) isn't helping.

According everything I've read and things I've heard, this is definitely on it's way to being bigger than DLH/Mayweather. Sure, the Price is different, but in terms of total buys, CC in Vegas & Theaters, as well as Tickets being sold for the Live Event, it's got a strong chance. I am in L.A., so my perception is a bit skewed based on the demographics around me, but this fight is getting a lot of buzz. Canelo is the biggest Mexican Born fighter since Chavez. He doesn't have a huge following Nationwide, but amongst the Mexican Community is humongous. Remember, this fight is also taking place around Mexican Independence day. Mexicans are some of the most loyal consumers in Boxing.

The problem then was Golden Boy being upset with Manny that they were no longer able to get a cut of his fights, as Top Rank was his outright promoter (they used to split Manny). After that, the pissing match between Arum and De La Hoya started. Small time fights were being made and so on. So, the promoters screwed that up then. Now, Floyd is pissing all over the fight even though Manny is offering him a fair deal. Floyd will never accept someones offer, he feels he's lost then. The deal HAS to be in his favor and has to be his idea. So, it'll probably never happen.

Top Rank and Golden Boy didn't exactly "used to split Manny."  It was just some legal agreement that came about since Golden Boy was going to sign Manny (and he had accepted a cash bonus), though Top Rank convinced Manny to sign with them instead, and he returned the bonus to Golden Boy, who argued in court that Manny's original acceptance of the bonus enacted the contract.  The court ruled that Manny was with Top Rank and not Golden Boy, but Golden Boy would get a small cut of what Manny's fights grossed for a certain length of time.  During that time, Top Rank and Golden Boy tried to play nice with each other and set up fights together (i.e. Pacquiao-Marquez II, De La Hoya-Pacquiao, Mosley-Margarito, Pacquiao-Hatton).  De La De La Hoya-Cotto was planned, but it got canned when Cotto lost to Margarito.  After that, he was considering fighting either Hatton or Pacquiao.  (A lot of people who discredit Pacquiao's victory over Oscar by saying that Oscar had to drop down to 147 for him don't realize that he was planning to go down to welterweight anyway, against Cotto.).[/quote]

Thanks for the breakdown. Obviously, we'll never know for sure, but if Margarito would've never cheated to beat Cotto that night, I think the world of Boxing would've been different today. What happened to Cotto that night pretty much ruined his career. He was never really the same after that.

I agree though about the Floyd shit.  But when he's undefeated and the biggest draw, it's kind of hard to convince him to let someone else dictate the terms.  But it's still fucked up when he goes back on his word and puts up new roadblocks.  But again, he's in a position to fuck with people like that.

Though he needs to stop with the punk ass fights against lame opponents (i.e. Ortiz and Guerrero).  But I don't doubt that Golden Boy is hoping to set up Mayweather-Khan at some point.

This is the problem with Boxing. It'll always be this way. The Fighter holds all the power. In the case of Fighter vs. Fighter, the most popular always wins out.

Golden Boy/Showtime know that there's just a small number of fighters even close to being ready to fight Floyd. They're throwing the hype machine around a lot of folks. I saw Khan fight Carlos Molina here in L.A. and he looked solid (plus Molina looked horrible). I also saw him fight Diaz. I think he needs to beat Alexander decisively to make me believe he's ready to fight a guy like Floyd.

I was at the Guerrero/Berto fight when Guerrero called out Floyd. I knew that was going to be a joke of a fight. Same thing with Ortiz. He wasn't ready.

[whoisthis]

MMA is basically mandingo cock fighting so you might get a response from Elano


i did watch the lsat Mayweather fight, hoping he'd lose

UFC is very entertaining, if all you can think of is "mandingo cock fighting" your heads in the wrong place bro. And to each his own but MMA is lightyears ahead of boxing in terms of entertainment.

It's run more efficiently because egos don't get in the way they do in boxing, especially with there not being the huge issue of promoters butting heads, or fighters not wanting to fight other fighters for whatever reason.

The Sport of MMA is still very young. Professional Boxing as we know it has been around forever. MMA as we know is still growing. With that said, the money is still growing as well. When you compare the money even 2nd tiered Boxers are making, it's more than most main eventers in MMA. But, being that UFC, Bellator etc. are ran as "Leagues" instead of Promotions, the control lies with the people running the Leagues. That does make for a much simpler and clean cut business model. But, I don't know that it lasts forever. These MMA fighters are going to want to get paid more sooner than later.

[Hack Wilson - real]

MMA started like 20 years ago, right?

[DeeezNuuuts83]

According everything I've read and things I've heard, this is definitely on it's way to being bigger than DLH/Mayweather. Sure, the Price is different, but in terms of total buys, CC in Vegas & Theaters, as well as Tickets being sold for the Live Event, it's got a strong chance. I am in L.A., so my perception is a bit skewed based on the demographics around me, but this fight is getting a lot of buzz. Canelo is the biggest Mexican Born fighter since Chavez. He doesn't have a huge following Nationwide, but amongst the Mexican Community is humongous. Remember, this fight is also taking place around Mexican Independence day. Mexicans are some of the most loyal consumers in Boxing.

I can respect your opinion.  Mine is just that it won't break it.  While Mayweather is obviously bigger now than he was in 2007, he still had a very loyal following that was definitely not small.  Oscar was the Golden Boy and always pulled in solid numbers and was a guaranteed PPV success, just like Floyd and Manny are today.  Additionally, Floyd sold that fight extremely well... I remember watching the HBO 24/7s for that and thinking I was really entertained.  I'm not saying that Canelo doesn't have a following, but it's not quite the same following that Floyd had for himself going into the De La Hoya fight.  And it's not like Mexican boxing fans support Canelo (meaning that they actually buy his fight or attend it in person) far more than they have supported other Mexican fighters before him... Marquez, Morales, Barrera, etc. all had the support of the Mexican communities as well.  But it was Oscar who was consistently a PPV smash.  Marquez does numbers but not like any of the big (PPV) boys, and I'd say he gets more support from the Mexican community than Canelo does.  But Mexican Independence Day doesn't really mean much, people say the same thing about Cinco de Mayo being such a big draw (and it is), so it's not like every Mexican holiday equates to huge numbers.

Thanks for the breakdown. Obviously, we'll never know for sure, but if Margarito would've never cheated to beat Cotto that night, I think the world of Boxing would've been different today. What happened to Cotto that night pretty much ruined his career. He was never really the same after that.

Yeah.  I wouldn't say it "ruined" Cotto's career, but it obviously took its toll on him mentally, especially with him having been undefeated up until that point.  But a lot of champions not named Floyd Mayweather have taken losses and bounced back and become even better.  But he tore up Margarito the second time around (though the damage that Manny did to Margarito made it easy for Cotto to re-open that wound) and also ended up getting two extremely lucrative fights (against Manny and Floyd) that paid him handsomely.  Ruined career or not, he got himself a Mayweather fight.  Remember that before Cotto took his first loss, Floyd didn't really want to fight him.  I think Floyd was asked about Cotto after he beat Oscar, and he kind of brushed him aside.

This is the problem with Boxing. It'll always be this way. The Fighter holds all the power. In the case of Fighter vs. Fighter, the most popular always wins out.

Golden Boy/Showtime know that there's just a small number of fighters even close to being ready to fight Floyd. They're throwing the hype machine around a lot of folks. I saw Khan fight Carlos Molina here in L.A. and he looked solid (plus Molina looked horrible). I also saw him fight Diaz. I think he needs to beat Alexander decisively to make me believe he's ready to fight a guy like Floyd.

Mayweather-Khan should never be made, unless Khan suddenly starts killing elite boxers out of nowhere.  If Floyd talks about Manny not being a worthy opponent anymore after taking two Ls -- one a split decision (which 99% of the boxing community knows was a total robbery that was clearly a UD win for Manny) and the other a legit KO -- then by that same logic, Khan shouldn't be worthy either, since he also caught himself two Ls as well -- one also a split decision (though it's more of a debatable loss and not quite a robbery) and the other a TKO.  Khan's opponents that he lost to weren't even elite fighters either, whereas Manny's opponents were far more talented.  But if Khan obliterates Alexander (meaning a KO/TKO within the first half of the fight), then that will encourage Floyd (and Golden Boy) to consider him as an option just because it's convenient and marketable, but I think he'll need a more legit win on top of that... perhaps avenging either of his losses or, assuming Danny Garcia loses this month, taking on Matthysse and beating him.  Then I'd say that he could be a respectable opponent.  But definitely not one of my top three choices.

I was at the Guerrero/Berto fight when Guerrero called out Floyd. I knew that was going to be a joke of a fight. Same thing with Ortiz. He wasn't ready.

And therein lies the problem, Floyd picks people with a little bit of buzz and some big recent wins (so it doesn't look like he's picking a bum), but their inexperience is disguised as being young, fresh, hungry, etc. all for the sake of selling the fight and making it sound like the biggest challenge out there.  It's not to say that those opponents were bitches, but we knew how they would turn out, and we weren't really hungry for those fights either.  Ortiz made stupid mistakes, right when it looked like he was starting to catch his stride.  But then again, people inconveniently forgot how he quit against Maidana a couple years prior.  Again, another young fighter who came up on a big win against Berto, then suddenly was in the Mayweather sweepstakes whose prior losses were forgiven.  And Robert Guerrero was also a fucking nobody who came up off of beating Berto (when he was already damaged goods from having lost to Ortiz and tested positive for banned substances).

But I can respect that Floyd did take on Mosley (after his peak though), Cotto (also after his peak and after two TKO losses) and Canelo (big, strong opponent but still very young).  But I really don't want his next opponents to be some bullshit ones.

[whoisthis]

MMA started like 20 years ago, right?

Yeah the UFC started 20 years ago. Far different from what it is today. Organized MMA really started around the late 90s.

According everything I've read and things I've heard, this is definitely on it's way to being bigger than DLH/Mayweather. Sure, the Price is different, but in terms of total buys, CC in Vegas & Theaters, as well as Tickets being sold for the Live Event, it's got a strong chance. I am in L.A., so my perception is a bit skewed based on the demographics around me, but this fight is getting a lot of buzz. Canelo is the biggest Mexican Born fighter since Chavez. He doesn't have a huge following Nationwide, but amongst the Mexican Community is humongous. Remember, this fight is also taking place around Mexican Independence day. Mexicans are some of the most loyal consumers in Boxing.

I can respect your opinion.  Mine is just that it won't break it.  While Mayweather is obviously bigger now than he was in 2007, he still had a very loyal following that was definitely not small.  Oscar was the Golden Boy and always pulled in solid numbers and was a guaranteed PPV success, just like Floyd and Manny are today.  Additionally, Floyd sold that fight extremely well... I remember watching the HBO 24/7s for that and thinking I was really entertained.  I'm not saying that Canelo doesn't have a following, but it's not quite the same following that Floyd had for himself going into the De La Hoya fight.  And it's not like Mexican boxing fans support Canelo (meaning that they actually buy his fight or attend it in person) far more than they have supported other Mexican fighters before him... Marquez, Morales, Barrera, etc. all had the support of the Mexican communities as well.  But it was Oscar who was consistently a PPV smash.  Marquez does numbers but not like any of the big (PPV) boys, and I'd say he gets more support from the Mexican community than Canelo does.  But Mexican Independence Day doesn't really mean much, people say the same thing about Cinco de Mayo being such a big draw (and it is), so it's not like every Mexican holiday equates to huge numbers.

Canelo is a different animal than Marquez, Morales, Barrera and the like. Those were Mexican Warriors, not really Superstars. Canelo has the following and the hype (in Mexico) that only a few fighters have had in the last 20 years. I was at the Presser for Canelo/Floyd and Marquez/Bradley. Obviously, the turn outs will not be even, but in terms of sheer support, Canelo won out when you compare all 4 fighters. But, Canelo's fan base that showed up wasn't really your Mexican American, they were more Mexican National than anything else. Also, based on my conversations with other fight fans, namely Mexican fight fans... his hype is real. Mexican Independence Day and Cinco De Mayo aren't the reason for big numbers, if this fell on October 3rd, it'd sell. But, they are used for a reason. You associate those weekends with those Holidays. Like the UFC with their Superbowl Weekend fights. Those are weekends where people feel looser with their wallet. Have friends and family over for a party and need something entertaining on.

Thanks for the breakdown. Obviously, we'll never know for sure, but if Margarito would've never cheated to beat Cotto that night, I think the world of Boxing would've been different today. What happened to Cotto that night pretty much ruined his career. He was never really the same after that.

Yeah.  I wouldn't say it "ruined" Cotto's career, but it obviously took its toll on him mentally, especially with him having been undefeated up until that point.  But a lot of champions not named Floyd Mayweather have taken losses and bounced back and become even better.  But he tore up Margarito the second time around (though the damage that Manny did to Margarito made it easy for Cotto to re-open that wound) and also ended up getting two extremely lucrative fights (against Manny and Floyd) that paid him handsomely.  Ruined career or not, he got himself a Mayweather fight.  Remember that before Cotto took his first loss, Floyd didn't really want to fight him.  I think Floyd was asked about Cotto after he beat Oscar, and he kind of brushed him aside.
[/quote]
That's why I say it ruined him. In Boxing, unlike any other sport, a loss is devastating. They're hard to bounce back from. A loss like what Cotto experienced was more than that. It was a destruction. Cotto never bounced back. He beat Judah and Mosely, and like you pointed out was one of the most feared fighters, and then Margarito happened. I don't think he looked good against Clottley and obviously worked him over. But, it was the fight against Foreman that made me second guess if Cotto should even be fighting. He was the logical choice for Floyd after he took out Mayorga ( ) and a plaster-less Margarito. His buzz up until that 1st Margarito fight was crazy. He was Paul Williams/Sergio Martinez/GGG before they were. He just never bounced back.

This is the problem with Boxing. It'll always be this way. The Fighter holds all the power. In the case of Fighter vs. Fighter, the most popular always wins out.

Golden Boy/Showtime know that there's just a small number of fighters even close to being ready to fight Floyd. They're throwing the hype machine around a lot of folks. I saw Khan fight Carlos Molina here in L.A. and he looked solid (plus Molina looked horrible). I also saw him fight Diaz. I think he needs to beat Alexander decisively to make me believe he's ready to fight a guy like Floyd.

Mayweather-Khan should never be made, unless Khan suddenly starts killing elite boxers out of nowhere.  If Floyd talks about Manny not being a worthy opponent anymore after taking two Ls -- one a split decision (which 99% of the boxing community knows was a total robbery that was clearly a UD win for Manny) and the other a legit KO -- then by that same logic, Khan shouldn't be worthy either, since he also caught himself two Ls as well -- one also a split decision (though it's more of a debatable loss and not quite a robbery) and the other a TKO.  Khan's opponents that he lost to weren't even elite fighters either, whereas Manny's opponents were far more talented.  But if Khan obliterates Alexander (meaning a KO/TKO within the first half of the fight), then that will encourage Floyd (and Golden Boy) to consider him as an option just because it's convenient and marketable, but I think he'll need a more legit win on top of that... perhaps avenging either of his losses or, assuming Danny Garcia loses this month, taking on Matthysse and beating him.  Then I'd say that he could be a respectable opponent.  But definitely not one of my top three choices.[/quote]

No doubt. I've never bought into the Khan hype. But, right now with the GBP/Showtime and Top Rank/HBO split, there's not many options for Floyd. I do agree on Manny. Any logical person knows that he beat Bradley. I don't even look at that as a loss. And, even up until the KO he suffered vs. Marquez, Manny was up in that fight. I feel it was a combination of many being overly aggressive, Marquez being hurt (which is when a fighter is most dangerous) and Angel Hernandez...

Floyd would give Khan the fight before Manny only because he knows he can take a much larger chunk of the purse and there's nothing Khan's camp can do or say about it. It's not about the Win/Loss record. For Floyd it's about winning everything. Name being first on the bill. Coming out second. Getting the majority (no matter how small) of the purse. Dictating terms. That's when the fight starts for Floyd. Months before the actual fight. Manny's camp doesn't allow that and Floyd knows it.

I like that idea of seeing Khan beat Alexander and then taking on the winner of Garcia/Matthyse. Then that winner fights Floyd. Makes sense. But, it leaves Floyd without an opponent May of Next year.

I was at the Guerrero/Berto fight when Guerrero called out Floyd. I knew that was going to be a joke of a fight. Same thing with Ortiz. He wasn't ready.

And therein lies the problem, Floyd picks people with a little bit of buzz and some big recent wins (so it doesn't look like he's picking a bum), but their inexperience is disguised as being young, fresh, hungry, etc. all for the sake of selling the fight and making it sound like the biggest challenge out there.  It's not to say that those opponents were bitches, but we knew how they would turn out, and we weren't really hungry for those fights either.  Ortiz made stupid mistakes, right when it looked like he was starting to catch his stride.  But then again, people inconveniently forgot how he quit against Maidana a couple years prior.  Again, another young fighter who came up on a big win against Berto, then suddenly was in the Mayweather sweepstakes whose prior losses were forgiven.  And Robert Guerrero was also a fucking nobody who came up off of beating Berto (when he was already damaged goods from having lost to Ortiz and tested positive for banned substances).

But I can respect that Floyd did take on Mosley (after his peak though), Cotto (also after his peak and after two TKO losses) and Canelo (big, strong opponent but still very young).  But I really don't want his next opponents to be some bullshit ones.[/quote]

Yeah, Floyd is an opportunist. That's why he's fighting Canelo now and not in 2 or 3 years. Canelo is coming off a fight vs. Trout where I personally thought he looked gassed and definitely could've lost the fight. I knew when Floyd took this fight, him and his camp saw something they knew he could exploit.

As for Ortiz, I think he was thrown in by De La Hoya. Oscar is DYING to find that next Mexican American star and it's not working. First it was Ortiz. Then it kinda looked like Guerrero. Most recently, it was Abner Mares. It's just gonna happen. I lost ALL respect for Ortiz after his "I don't deserve this" speech. Berto is more Balrog than Bison nowadays. I don't know why GBP used him as a stepping stone towards Mayweather. Stylistically, he's nothing like your typical Black American fighter. So he gets into slug fests and loses and all of a sudden those guys are ready for Floyd? Please. Beat a guy like Broner. Move up beat a guy like Bradley. Or fight a guy like Ward and move way down. But, to be ready for Floyd, you have to have experience fighting fighters with strong Defense, not brawlers.

Floyd waited for Cotto and Mosely. He should've fought them much sooner. But, that's boxing.