When and Why did RnB and Rock n Roll become to different genres?

[Shallow]

I don't get it. Rhythm and Blues was a direct descendant of the Blues. It was a faster, funner, slightly more juvenile version of the Blues. It started getting popular among blacks after WWII. Alan Freed became one of, if not the, first DJs to play it to the masses, taking it out of the black neighborhoods and into the suburbs. He soon changed the name to Rock n Roll, or Rock and Roll. Artists like Ike Turner, Ray Charles, and Little Richard emerged into the national scene. Elvis Presley came a long and introduced rockabilly (rock and roll hillbilly) to the masses. This made everyone associated with Rock n Roll a bigger star. While Elvis's rockabilly blended the rhythm and blues that had been a big part of the Memphis life he came from, and Country Western, many of the black artists didn't adopt the country sound and were still considered Rock n Roll. Chuck Berry being a prime example. Jackie Wilson was a huge influence on Elvis and many other rockers. Many of his hits came from a song writing team that included Berry Gordy, who later founded Motown Records. Barret Strong, another rocker, joined Motown as a key song writer, yet history looks back at Motown as RnB and not Rock. By the late 60s the British Invasion and Bob Dylan had already changed Rock n Roll drastically. Led Zeppelin turned traditional blues songs into hard rock anthems and Black Sabbath took that hard sound to another extreme. Neither Zeppelin nor Sabbath are looked at as RnB, and neither Marvin Gaye nor the Temptations are seen as Rock n Roll, but both sets of artists come from the same genre. Why is Elvis Rock n Roll and Marvin Gaye RnB?

[eS El Duque]

I don't have the answer, seriousily. 

[bjax]

This has been bugging me too.  If you're a white singer than you're pop/rock.  If you're black then you're R&B.  Makes no sense.

[Kill]

you got a point Shallow, but the obvious part of the answer should be clear to you, too: People associate a certain sound with a certain style and it is of course not really the easy way to take in account the whole history of the music a band plays every time in order to say what genre they are, you'll just listen to it and, going from what it sounds like, match it with the word commonly used for such music. You won't say Snoop Dogg is Rock'n'Roll if somebody asks you what kinda music he does, yet you could argue that he is

[white Boy]

This has been bugging me too. If you're a white singer than you're pop/rock. If you're black then you're R&B. Makes no sense.

[Shallow]

you got a point Shallow, but the obvious part of the answer should be clear to you, too: People associate a certain sound with a certain style and it is of course not really the easy way to take in account the whole history of the music a band plays every time in order to say what genre they are, you'll just listen to it and, going from what it sounds like, match it with the word commonly used for such music. You won't say Snoop Dogg is Rock'n'Roll if somebody asks you what kinda music he does, yet you could argue that he is

I understand, but it still doesn't make sense some times. B2K can sing the same songs N' Synch do and they'll be on BET and called RnB. George Michael songs aren't any different than Michael Jackson, but you'd never see George Michael on BET, or being called RnB. I wasn't applying to musics that sound different. Obviously there is no confusing the sound of Iron Maiden with Tribe Called Quest, but Michael Bolton isn't too different than Luther Vandross, but Vandross fans would say so, just because he's black. I just don't like that RnB automatically means black. If a white guy does RnB it's soft rock or pop, but all three are the same. Rock n Roll (or Rhythm and Blues) is all the same thing. I just wish people realized. Sure Snoop and Elvis don't do the same thing, but neither doies Peyton Manning and Ray Lewis, but they both play football, just different positions. You should categorize to help people identify, but you should also realize the bigger picture. I don't mean you specifically.

[Don Breezio]

i dont really have a reply to this topic....but damn shallow....you know a lot about music

[white Boy]

^he def does..

[Shallow]

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Trauma might have something to say about that.

Luke, that wasn't sacrastic was it? I don't think it was but we've argued before.


To be honest I don't know a lot about music. I know a little about a lot of different types of music. Well the history of them anyway. The actual music part? Well that's not in my realm of knowledge. You put me in front of a piano and tell me to play blues chords, followed with jazz chords, and finish it off with classical progressions, and you'll hear nothing but noise because I can't play for shit, and I wouldn't know what notes to press. Some guys can sit in front of one and play every single style. That's knowing a lot about music.


Thanks for the compliment though.

[Don Breezio]

no it wasnt sarcastic....but yeah i meant more about music history and such....

[Trauma-san]

The answer is that since Rock & Roll began, there's been a reluctance on white america's part to embrace it, because it represented a largely black-led invasion into white teenager's living rooms via television and the radio.  Rock & Roll on a largeeee level began because White artists (read Pat Boone) took black songs, and made them available to a white audience.  I guess it's racism, but you can almost understand the reluctance of a white family to let their teenagers watch Little Richard on television screaming and sweating in front of a piano. 

Now, i'm not saying Blacks started Rock, I'm just saying that the face of Rock, (rock, being fascinating to America in the 50's) was largely Black.  I wouldn't take a thing away from Elvis, and call him you know, a watered down version of a black rock & roll star, because he wasn't, he was there to help start Rock... but even though he had the same moves or worse as Little Richard and Chuck Berry, he was WHITE, and thereby partially more acceptable to white America on their televison.  Even Elvis was censored, though. 

Anyways, what you had was R&B, and Doo Wop groups in the 40's and early 50's, that were respectful, and sang what America considered 'decent' music at the time.  Even sultry songs about love and romance were alright to white America, because they considered them at the time to be 'decent'.  Along with this, there is a rising movement among the black artists, and among blues artists, etc. to make more exciting and more sexual music, with throbbing bass and fast beats... Whites like Elvis come along for the ride, and Rock & Roll is born. 

The easiest thing for these families to do was to just blame it on the blacks... they couldn't come up with an excuse to tell their little girl not to listen to Elvis, but they sure as hell could make sure she didn't listen to a black man, Little Richard. 

So a divide arose, down racial lines, even though Rock was founded by black, and white men.  So flash to today, and you've got black rockers cast into an R&B mold, and white R&B artists considered Rock and roll.

There are genre busters, though.  The greatest Rock & Roll guitarist of all time was Jimi Hendrix, a black man.  Lenny Kravitz would be considered nothing but Rock, and he's black.  Etc.

[Shallow]

The answer is that since Rock & Roll began, there's been a reluctance on white America's part to embrace it, because it represented a largely black-led invasion into white teenager's living rooms via television and the radio.  Rock & Roll on a large level began because White artists (read Pat Boone) took black songs, and made them available to a white audience.  I guess it's racism, but you can almost understand the reluctance of a white family to let their teenagers watch Little Richard on television screaming and sweating in front of a piano. 

Now, I'm not saying Blacks started Rock, I'm just saying that the face of Rock, (rock, being fascinating to America in the 50's) was largely Black.  I wouldn't take a thing away from Elvis, and call him you know, a watered down version of a black rock & roll star, because he wasn't, he was there to help start Rock... but even though he had the same moves or worse as Little Richard and Chuck Berry, he was WHITE, and thereby partially more acceptable to white America on their television.  Even Elvis was censored, though. 

Anyways, what you had was R&B, and Doo Wop groups in the 40's and early 50's, that were respectful, and sang what America considered 'decent' music at the time.  Even sultry songs about love and romance were alright to white America, because they considered them at the time to be 'decent'.  Along with this, there is a rising movement among the black artists, and among blues artists, etc. to make more exciting and more sexual music, with throbbing bass and fast beats... Whites like Elvis come along for the ride, and Rock & Roll is born. 

The easiest thing for these families to do was to just blame it on the blacks... they couldn't come up with an excuse to tell their little girl not to listen to Elvis, but they sure as hell could make sure she didn't listen to a black man, Little Richard. 

So a divide arose, down racial lines, even though Rock was founded by black, and white men.  So flash to today, and you've got black rockers cast into an R&B mold, and white R&B artists considered Rock and roll.

There are genre busters, though.  The greatest Rock & Roll guitarist of all time was Jimi Hendrix, a black man.  Lenny Kravitz would be considered nothing but Rock, and he's black.  Etc.

Well my question was kind of a rhetorical one. I didn't flat out say it was because of racism, but I was hinting at it. I posted the question more for discussions sake and to let all those hiphop/RnB only fans out there that they're listening to Rock, the music they hate, and don't even know it.


You pretty much got it though. Any black artist that records music that isn't hard rock is RnB or rap, and any white artist that records music that isn't rap is rock, pop, or soft rock. Why can't more people see it's all the same thing.

I'll use my football analogy once more. Every non classical genre makes up Rock N Roll. Whether it is the predecessors like  Country, Blues or Jazz, or the current ones like metal, punk or rap. If Rock and Roll is football then Jazz and the others would be Rugby. You don't have to watch rugby to appreciate football, but you should watch more positions in football. It's like only watching the quarter back, and not paying any attention to the half back. Obviously it is hard to pay attention to ever line man, but the, major players deserve recognition and appreciation, by me anyway. Some people can just watch the QB and be fine with it. I choose to watch a little bit of every position, and I'll even tune into a Rugby game if it's on. I know this didn't seem to make much sense, but it does relate to music, metaphorically.

[Trauma-san]

Genre's are pointless and meaningless anyways, anyone who's a fan of music or who's paid any attention to it all will attest to that.

For instance, don't like Country? O.K., but wouldn't you gladly listen to Johnny Cash, or Willie Nelson? Fuck yeah, you'd recognize both of them as legends and superstars with excellent music.

Don't like Rap?  O.K., but wouldn't you listen to Roscoe's "The Brother" (one of the greatest songs in years, in my opinion)? Anybody would like that song, grandmothers would like that song. 

The only people that neatly fit into a genre are those that TRY to. 

[Don Breezio]

so basically what you are saying shallow is that you dont like how rock n roll was broken up into several sub genre's (punk, indie, r&b, rap, country, etc....)

i agree and disagree in some ways.....

i agree that i dont like when music is broken down too much....but really breaking rock n roll down wasnt necessarily a bad thing....i mean rap & country are obviously 2 totally different sounds....they stem from the same genre but are not now the same genre....i agree with the whole racism thing too...

the thing is that now genre's are starting to break down even more.....you have it goin like this:

Rock-
punk
indie
emo
grunge
soft rock
heavy metal
death metal
nu metal
etc...

Rap-
backpack/nerd rap (atmosphere, eyedea, etc..)
gangsta rap
and then of course you got east, west, and south, midwest, etc...

techno-
drum n bass
trance
electronica
etc...

R&B-
neo soul

its getting to be broken down too much


trauma....that was a dumb statement....no...if i dont like country i wont listen to johnny cash or willie nelson...and no if i dont like rap i wont listen to roscoe

[Shallow]

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I don't mind that its been categorized. Much like in Football, playing quarter back and corner back are two very different things, and it's nice to be able to distinguish. However, it's all football. Much like all the sub divisions of Rock are all Rock. You shouldn't have to concentrate on everything but it's nice to give everything some of your time. You may come to appreciate it if you give it a chance. When I used to watch football I would only pay attention to the QB, receivers and running backs, because I thought they were the most important. After a few years I realized how important the offensive center is to the play. If he fucks up then the whole play is over, no matter how good the QB is. I learned that there is more to the game than what first appealed to me. This doesn't mean if you listen to all musics you will love them, but I guarantee you'll like a song here and there, even if you hate the genre, and it's always nice to explore.