Lifestyle > Train of Thought
Denmark editor of cartoons is fired because he considered posting Jewish cartoon
I TO DA GEEZY:
--- Quote from: nibs on February 11, 2006, 03:17:14 PM ---
--- Quote from: I TO DA GEEZY on February 11, 2006, 02:02:09 PM ---Mohamed being portrayed as a terrorist has nothing to do with the fact there is a correlation between Islam and terrorism?
--- End quote ---
terrorism is an ugly word.
would you agree that there is a correlation between zionism and oppression and terrorism?
israel has both oppressed and terrorized the palestinian people.
--- Quote ---Give me a fuckin break mate. Do you think Jews outside of Israel weren't outraged at the anti-Jewish cartoons along the Arab world?
--- End quote ---
you did not understand my point. because judaism is at the heart of zionism, judaism is the root of the palestine problem; and thus it is attacked as zionism is the target.
in contrast, islam is not the root of the "terrorism" problem. the root of the "terrorism" problem is the political/economic/military oppression of people in the muslim world and elsewhere.
it's not the same issue.
--- Quote ---U have underlined my point: When it suits them they say "freedom of speech" when it doesn't they holler "double standard".
--- End quote ---
your point is invalid.
there are two issues here:
b) the second issue is the double standard in the western media.
there is a clear double standard in the west, as islam is not afforded the same level of respect as judaism or christianity. you don't want to acknowledge the double standard in the west, so you turn this around against the muslim world, which leads to the first issue...
a) the primary issue here is that this caricature is an assault against islam; and against muslim populations in the west.
that is the reason for the outrage. just as you are attempting to disparage islam by claiming that there is a correlation between islam and terrorism (correlation != causality); the muslim world is outraged over these continued assaults against islam. the reason we are arguing "hypocrisy" is to expose the "freedom of speech" argument that has been used to justify this printing as a farce. "freedom of speech" does not mask the fact that this is an assault on islam. an assault on a religion in this manner is not something that people should sit down and take.
which brings us back to the second point.
yes, clearly the cartoons in the arab world that you reference are an assault on zionism. these cartoons would be inappropriate if they were not a response to oppression and tyranny by the zionists themselves. there is an understood state of hostility between several arab & muslim states and israel; largely rooted in the arguably criminal existence of the state of israel, the occupation of palestinian and foreign territories, and numerous other horrific transgressions. those anti-zionist cartoons are an expression of that hostility. everyone acknowledges that. to put these cartoons on the same footing as the caricature of muhammad is to suggest that there is an analagous state of hostility between the west and islam.
are you suggesting that the west and islam exist in a state of hostility?
--- End quote ---
Judaism is at the heart of Zionism?- I would say this is inaccurate at best. The first thing u should know is that Zionism as a movement which lead to the creation of the state of Israel, was primarily a secular movement. Ben-Gurion even censored the word GOD out of the Israeli declaration of independence. Do not shuffle the concepts of Jewry and Judaism. Jewry is at the heart of Zionism...yes(as in belonging to the Jewish people). But most of the people who were active in the creation of this state were 100% secular. Zionism is based on a historical claim not on a religious one.
Offending Judaism, like portraying people who resemble Rabbis as greedy pigs etc, has nothing to do with Zionism. Unlike the Arab claim to the land which is religious primarily- "Dar Al Islam"-(House of submission- a term for land under Muslim adminstration, it is believed by many Muslims that the creation of a non Muslim entity within it, is bound to fail) the Jewish claim to the land isn't religious- It's practical, and anti-semitism has alot to do with it as well.
Now as for correlation between Zionism and oppression. I am talking about statistical correlation. Take Zionism, how much oppression had it caused (Im not even asking you to look into the circumstances)? Now examine the oppression in the Arab World?.....Is there a stronger correlation between Zionism and Oppression or between Muslim countries and oppression?
Simple mathematics...There is correlation between many things...I was talking about significant statistical correlation between Islam and Terrorism ...Totalitarian regimes that hide behind the masks of Islam exploit religion for political causes. Same as Islamic terrorist groups do ("In the name of Allah")....
Now it's funny u view anti-Jewish cartoons as understandable due to the existence of Israel (without minding the FACT they were addressing Judaism many times, and not Zionism) and you refuse to understand the satirical use of strong correlation to hint at causality- between Islam and Terrorism. As for the west and Islam being in a likely state of hostility....hmmm let me think...9-11?
Don Rizzle:
--- Quote from: I TO DA GEEZY on February 11, 2006, 02:02:09 PM ---Totalitarian regimes that hide behind the masks of Islam exploit religion for political causes. Same as Islamic terrorist groups do ("In the name of Allah")....
--- End quote ---
you talk about these totalitariean regimes but israel is in favour of these.... http://www.dubcnn.com/connect/index.php?topic=102331.0
virtuoso:
Its such a pathetic argument saying well your nopt pointing out arab hypocrisy. YES there is arab hypocrisy but the so called civilised world can not stand up to the muslims in the name of free speech but then say well we dont allow for free speech if anti jew because thats evil and thats depraved, its already been illustrated how europe has criminalised the act of thought, this is true brainwashing. In turn thist creates the notion that attacking muslims - good attacking jews = bad. I have already given so many instances of how europe has created an illusion of free speech and only pulls the freedom of speech card when it suits their agenda, in this case the unabaited will of those criminals to start a terrible war with iran.
But hey whats a few million more dead muslims right, you talk about holocausts and yet Madelaine Albright never even challenged 60 minutes assertion that the so called oil for food program of the U.N had taken the lives of over 500,000 children alone in Iraq. If these criminals have their way i am sure they will even push for the suppression of admitted facts like this on the basis of being anti european and hateful.
nibs:
--- Quote from: I TO DA GEEZY on February 12, 2006, 03:06:13 AM ---Judaism is at the heart of Zionism?- I would say this is inaccurate at best. The first thing u should know is that Zionism as a movement which lead to the creation of the state of Israel, was primarily a secular movement. Ben-Gurion even censored the word GOD out of the Israeli declaration of independence.
--- End quote ---
at best inaccurate? you are arguing that that zionism was about the creation for the homeland for the jewish people, which only "coincidentall"y represents a people that all share the same faith. all i'm saying is that the faith is inextricably interwined.
--- Quote ---Do not shuffle the concepts of Jewry and Judaism. Jewry is at the heart of Zionism...yes(as in belonging to the Jewish people). But most of the people who were active in the creation of this state were 100% secular. Zionism is based on a historical claim not on a religious one.
--- End quote ---
according to the u.s. state department's human rights report on israel:
The Basic Law and Declaration of Independence recognize the country as a "Jewish and democratic state," establishing Judaism as the country's dominant religion. Civil rights NGOs have accurately charged the Government with the discriminatory allocation of state resources favoring Orthodox Jewish institutions.
i acknowledge that zionism is focused around the notion of a jewish people/ethnic group/race. i maintain that religion is intrinsically a large part of that.
--- Quote ---Unlike the Arab claim to the land which is religious primarily- "Dar Al Islam"-(House of submission- a term for land under Muslim adminstration, it is believed by many Muslims that the creation of a non Muslim entity within it, is bound to fail) the Jewish claim to the land isn't religious- It's practical, and anti-semitism has alot to do with it as well.
--- End quote ---
do you want to argue the various claims to the land, or the cartoons? immigrants were brought in and a state was created on land that other people already occupied. the self-determination of the palestinian people was ignored until the palestinians were driven out of their land. what's more practical than self-determination, which was ignored by the british and the u.n.?
--- Quote ---Take Zionism, how much oppression had it caused (Im not even asking you to look into the circumstances)?
--- End quote ---
alot. millions of refugees and displaced persons. military attacks against civillian residencies.
--- Quote ---Now examine the oppression in the Arab World?
--- End quote ---
can we agree that oppression anywhere is bad?
--- Quote --- (without minding the FACT they were addressing Judaism many times, and not Zionism)
--- End quote ---
i maintain that judaism and zionism are intertwined. refering to a jewish race or ethnic group has oft been discredited, and before the creation of israel there was no state to declare jews as a people to. jews from various backgrounds returned to israel after the state was created. jerusalem was regarded as more of a spiritual homeland by many jews of varying backgrounds.
--- Quote ---Now it's funny u view anti-Jewish cartoons as understandable due to the existence of Israel
--- End quote ---
understandable because of the hostility between the arab world and the jewish "people" because of the existence of israel. understandable in the context of hostility.
--- Quote ---and you refuse to understand the satirical use of strong correlation to hint at causality- between Islam and Terrorism.
--- End quote ---
terrorism is an ugly word with negative connotations. evil connotations. i am rejecting the choice of wording without the context of hostility.
--- Quote ---As for the west and Islam being in a likely state of hostility....hmmm let me think...9-11?
--- End quote ---
the american president and american government do not make that connection between 9/11 and islam. islamic extremists, maybe. but that is not islam as a whole, which is what these cartoons are assaulting
virtuoso:
Nibs you would probably have more success in teaching Bush to hold his book the right way round, than to try and get through to him. I think to a certain extent though we have to be careful not to refer to Israel too much though, what you have to remember is that every time we refer to foregin affairs we take the attention away from what is happening in our own backyard. Now I am not saying that some jewish groups dont have america in their back pockets but the example i would give, is here in england we in the general sense of the word think of ourselves as more intelligent than americans, wiser etc, yet at the same time most people will tell you that politics doesnt interest them, they really have no opinion on talking on the evil actions of the government and to link killing with the government, creates an almost deathly silence.
I have a friend in the army and I was talking to him about the murderous use of DU, whilst we were on the train and I could visibly hear 4 or 5 people whom I wasnt even addressing or talking to become visibly angered even though I said absolutely nothing which isnt widely admitted and documented anyway. Now once again this underlines the way the english have just been sedated and mind controlled to reject "anti speech" but to embrace hatred of "terrorism". So whilst the media may sometimes be prepared to expose and illustrate the disgusting oppression of the palestinians its a divsiionary tactic which prevents people from realising what is happening right here.
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