Lifestyle > Train of Thought
Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
nibs:
--- Quote from: Shallow on February 23, 2006, 03:09:21 PM ---So I guess that means means that according to that God would need "partners" to get certain things done. (Infinite will love that theory). I don't get why a being that can do anything and everything wouldn't be able to come to Earth if he wanted to.
--- End quote ---
that theory was probably incorrect.
sura 38:71-76
71) Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I am about to create man from clay:
72) "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him."
73) So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together:
74) Not so Iblis: he was haughty, and became one of those who reject Faith.
75) (God) said: "O Iblis! What prevents thee from prostrating thyself to one whom I have created with my hands? Art thou haughty? Or art thou one of the high (and mighty) ones?"
76) (Iblis) said: "I am better than he: thou createdst me from fire, and him thou createdst from clay."
i included the latter three verses as i find them informative.
i apologize for my previous theory which was clearly poorly researched as to the creation of man. the more detailed explanation of the creation of man above indicates that it was god acting on his own.
additionally, anything that the angels do on behalf of god would not equate them equal to god or partners to god. they are not. when communities are destroyed for disbelieving their warners, whether through storm, flood, or fire; does that make these things now partners to god? his manifestations acting on his will.
the qu'ran clearly states, as you suggest, that anything god wants done he can simply say "be" and it will be done.
i'm sure infinite would agree that your pal, jesus, has said many wise things; and only disagree with you as to whether or not jesus was a god, or god's son.
Shallow:
--- Quote from: nibs on February 23, 2006, 03:45:30 PM ---
the qu'ran clearly states, as you suggest, that anything god wants done he can simply say "be" and it will be done.
--- End quote ---
There it is; ANYTHING God wants done can be done. So if God wanted an equal, God would have an equal. Now I am not using this to prove that Jesus was his equals because it does not prove that, but it does prove that you (not you presonally) cannot disprove the possibility that Jesus could be an equal. Infinite tries so hard to to do so and it's pointless. I have no problem with Infinite's faith, and have no reason or intention to change that faith. I also never try and disprove the Quran or Muhammad. Obviously as a Christian I have to believe that what is taught in the Quran with regards to Jesus is a lie, much like every Muslim has to believe that what is said in the Gospel with regards to Jesus is a lie; the whether he is the son of God part. I do not KNOW whether either is a lie, and do not care to try and prove it because I cannot.
My reasons for staying with Christianity as opposed to converting to Islam or any other religion is that Christianity suited me, and I didn't find anything in the Gospel that I found personally wrong, (the Gospel, not the Letters of Paul). In Islam I find it wrong that a man can marry several wives but a woman is not allowed to (if I have this wrong then please correct me). I do not use this or anything similar to it as a way to recruit or convert people. It's just my personal view on how I want to live my life. The sooner Infinite understands that he cannot ever fully understand what is really true and what is not and accepts that his life is based on faith that personally suits him, the better off we'll all be, himself included.
As for the partners; I disagree with you. God does have partners in the angels and even the prophets, just because they are not equal to him does not mean they are not partners. You can have a dance partner and lead her the entire way. She is not your equal on the dance floor but she is still your partner. (You can reverse roles with so it doesn't appear sexist).
P.S. My Jesus reference was was brought in to show how I felt on the idea of figuring out the universe and I didn't want to take credit for it so I stated where I got from. I wasn't trying to push Jesus's wisdom in any way. Not that you were implying I was, I just wanted to make it clear to anyone reading.
nibs:
--- Quote from: Shallow on February 23, 2006, 08:59:14 PM ---
There it is; ANYTHING God wants done can be done. So if God wanted an equal, God would have an equal. Now I am not using this to prove that Jesus was his equals because it does not prove that, but it does prove that you (not you presonally) cannot disprove the possibility that Jesus could be an equal.
--- End quote ---
you are taking that statement out of context. in context it's stating that god can do whatever he pleases with his creation simply be saying be. that is to say he can raise the dead as easily as he initially created man. that is to say he cause a woman to be pregnant with similar ease. reduce mountains to dust with merely his presence. it does not speak to whether god can create other gods, or even what "other gods" means.
if you are looking for a doctrine that supports the notion of god creating other gods; i wouldn't look towards the qu'ran. something like hinduism and the vedic texts directly supports that notion, the qu'ran does not.
--- Quote ---Obviously as a Christian I have to believe that what is taught in the Quran with regards to Jesus is a lie, much like every Muslim has to believe that what is said in the Gospel with regards to Jesus is a lie; the whether he is the son of God part.
--- End quote ---
actually, there are many christian sects that do not worship christ as god, but regard him as a prophet. i think the only question is whether the doctrine of the trinity is a corrupted doctrine. this isn't just qu'ran vs christianity, it's also christianity vs christianity.
--- Quote ---In Islam I find it wrong that a man can marry several wives but a woman is not allowed to (if I have this wrong then please correct me).
--- End quote ---
this is a very interesting objection to raise. it would be one thing to object to anything other than pure monogamy; but your notion that this is imbalanced seems short sighted.
men and women are different. the qu'ran specifies that the man must provide for each of those families, having these weird cross marriages with men sharing wives would complicate that. in terms of procreation one man can have multiple women pregnant at once, whereas one woman can only bear the seed of one man at a time. all of the children of one mother have the same father, and in that sense they are all equal.
this is not unlike abraham having isaac and ishmael by separate wives. jacob's sons were of atleast two wives (leah & rachel).
this is just preserving traditions.
--- Quote ---As for the partners; I disagree with you. God does have partners in the angels and even the prophets
--- End quote ---
we don't have to argue the definition of partners. the qu'ran states god does not have equals. the qu'ran instructs you to worship your creator. even if there were other god's or others equal to god, if you decide to worship them then on the last day you had better be certain that your gods will intercede on your behalf to save you. this is all the qu'ran is saying.
the mother of john the baptist was old and barren. how could her husband have fertilized one of her eggs if she had no eggs to fertilize. surely john the baptist should be regarded in the same light as jesus? why isn't john also considered the son of god?
Shallow:
I have no need to debate you. I believe what I belive and you belive what you believe. That was my point from the beginning.
To answer some of your points;
When I read something like God can do anything I take it as that. Anything, with out limitations. I never said said God created an equal an that equal was Jesus. I am just saying if God can do anything then he could create an equal. If the Quran limits the statement by saying God can do anything with those he creates then he still should be able to make them equals. Whether he would or not is a different story.
The only sect I know that believes that is Unitarian Christianity, which is a very small number. There are currently only 217,000 Unitarians in the UUA and only a small percentage of them consider themselves to be Christian. So there really isn't much of a "vs." between nearly 2 billion and a percentage of 217,000. I just wanted to make sure that the idea that Jesus is God is not something debated by Christians in general.
The marriage thing was just 1 example of why I am Christian, and in no way was said in order to make others Christian. I disagree with the inequality that a man is permitted to have multiple wives and woman is not permitted to have multiple husbands. Of course a gay man could argue to me that it isn't okay for a man to marry a man but it is okay for a man to marry a woman, and my beliefs may not suit that man and he is free to belive what ever he likes. As are you.
I think the partners thing we agree on so there is no need to get into that. I think you agree that he has partners or allies but they are not equal to him.
As for John the Baptist; that's a very easy one when answering from a Christian perspective. Gabriel came to Zacharias and told him that Elizabeth would bear him a son. Jospeh was visted by Gabriel after Mary was pregnant and he was told that child that had been conceived in her was of the Holy Spirit. Also as it states in the Gospel of John; I the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. Everything that came into being came through him, (the Word). In him was life and it was the light of men. John was sent as a witness to this light so that all could believe through him. But John was not the light. The light was coming. He (the light) was in the world and the world was made though him. The Word (which is where the light is in) became flesh and dwelt among us.
John the Baptist even testified "He who comes after me hasa higher rank than I, for he existed before me".
From a Christian point of view there is no way to confuse Jesus and Jon as being of the same essence. Christians who argue that Jesus never said he was the Son of God or anything of that nature muxt belive that the written Gospel is a lie and if it lies about that then it can lie about anything.
What I wonder about is if the Church did indeed change the written Gospel to includ ethe part about the Trinity then why would they keep it in a way that they contradict it so much. Why wouldn't they just change the Bible altogether so that everything the Church does is in the Gospel. Why wouldn't they make Jesus say that a Church will be built in my name and you must go every Sunday and give money? It doesn't make sense to me. (Of course the conspiracy theorist in me would say they purposely go against certain aspects so that people like me can use the argument I use to believe in the Trinity, although that doesn't seem logical even to me, yet it may to others).
nibs:
--- Quote from: Shallow on February 25, 2006, 05:52:38 PM ---I have no need to debate you. I believe what I belive and you belive what you believe. That was my point from the beginning.
--- End quote ---
i'm not debating your beliefs, i'm discussing the facts.
--- Quote ---When I read something like God can do anything I take it as that. Anything, with out limitations.
--- End quote ---
what i'm saying is that you would be taking those statements in the qu'ran out of context to suggest they implied god could create an equal for himself. those statements were about what a creator could do with his creation. if a video game designer can do whatever he wishes in his video game world, that does not mean he can create an equal to himself. what i was pointing out was that the statements in the qu'ran did not support your conclusion. they don't deny your conclusion either.
--- Quote ---The only sect I know that believes that is Unitarian Christianity, which is a very small number.
--- End quote ---
the jehovah's witness sect also does not believe jesus was god, or in the trinity in general. many of the early jewish christian sects, like the ebionites, did not regard jesus as god. it's been argued that the notion of the trinity was something paul invented while teaching the gentiles, and not something that was widespread among early christians who were jewish. but gained popularity as the gentile christian presence expanded.
there are something like 6 million jehovah's witnesses.
--- Quote ---I just wanted to make sure that the idea that Jesus is God is not something debated by Christians in general.
--- End quote ---
there is dissent. the argument which islam makes and millions of christians believe is that the notion of the trinity is a corruption to the original message and teachings of christ.
--- Quote ---As for John the Baptist; that's a very easy one when answering from a Christian perspective. Gabriel came to Zacharias and told him that Elizabeth would bear him a son. Jospeh was visted by Gabriel after Mary was pregnant and he was told that child that had been conceived in her was of the Holy Spirit.
--- End quote ---
all i'm saying is that the circumstances from a technical standpoint are largely the same. seeing as elizabeth was infertile and old, either god did some cloning and stole the dna from elizabeth and zacharias or it was a miraculous act. just like jesus. with joseph, clearly he needs an explanation for why the woman he hasn't touched will give birth. all zacharias needed was word that his wife would bear him a child.
i'm not saying that john the baptist and jesus were of equal rank. god's angels have rank iirc; although their nature is the same.
--- Quote ---Christians who argue that Jesus never said he was the Son of God or anything of that nature must belive that the written Gospel is a lie and if it lies about that then it can lie about anything.
--- End quote ---
i have no doubt that early christian sects had many different texts and scriptures from what people have now, that the catholic church put together. and without question the emphasized different teachings and scriptures differently. the christian bible has changed and the manner in which it was put together raises some questions in itself.
the modern sects that i've mentioned simply question whether jesus was divine and the trinity. the jehovah's witnesses claim he was an angel who god infused into human-kind.
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