Lifestyle > Train of Thought
Why does Palestine not have the right to exist?
Don Rizzle:
--- Quote from: Chief on August 01, 2006, 09:10:33 AM ---wasn't the ottoman empire defeated fair and square ? why did they unite with the germans and try take over ?
--- End quote ---
the ottoman empire collapsed from within, ww1 just put the final nail in their coffin
Don Rizzle:
--- Quote from: I TO DA GEEZY on July 30, 2006, 10:06:56 AM ---Before 1967 the Palestinians which are known today as Palestinians, the ones who you call Palestinians, the ones claiming to be an inseparable part of the Arab Nation, didn't exist. Gaza and West Bank were conquered from Egypt and Jordan, two non-Palestinian sovereignties.
--- End quote ---
you talk about gaza and the west bank being taken from other countries but before mass jewish migration to "palestine" they were all part of one single entity and had been for some time the people that lived there deserved to be given their own country like everyone who lived under british rule eventually did, but the americans robbed them of that right. Britain was against jewish migration, which is why we sent back or detained many of those that who arrived and we were too tired from ww2 to carry on fighting so we gave into american pressure and let the UN decide...........
I TO DA GEEZY:
--- Quote from: Don Rizzle on August 01, 2006, 12:36:58 PM ---they were all part of one single entity and had been for some time the people that lived there deserved to be given their own country
--- End quote ---
That's why they rejected the Partition Plan (That granted them a country on the majority of the territory) while the Zionists accepted it?
That's why Nasser was talking about Arab Unity plans (Pan-Arabism)? That's why intead of granting them a country, 7 Arab armies invaded their territory promissing to remove Israel from the map, subsequently failing to do so? That's why Arab states and Arab leaders orchestrated the refugee problem prior to their invasion of Palestine, forcing them to leave the land?
J @ M @ L:
--- Quote from: I TO DA GEEZY on July 30, 2006, 10:06:56 AM ---Before 1967 the Palestinians which are known today as Palestinians, the ones who you call Palestinians, the ones claiming to be an inseparable part of the Arab Nation, didn't exist.
--- End quote ---
You can't neglect or deny a people's existence just because that population has no nationalist narrative. Nationalist narratives assume that nations have existed throughout history. They also assert that nationalist movements exist merely to bring those nations to a state of self-awareness. That's obviously not true because nationalist movements don't bring preexisting nations to a state of self-awareness; nationalist movements create those nations.
Nationalist movements first emerged in Europe with the advent of the modern era (world market economic system and modern nation state system). There were millions of Jews living in Europe, so that Jews would join a nationalist movement was inevitable, but there would be a Jewish nationalism, Zionism, was not. The main reason for the emergence of Zionism was the widespread anti-Semitism in Europe (exclusion of Jews from movements, pogroms, etc). Palestinian nationalism emerged during the period between the two world wars in response to Zionist settlement. The fact that Palestinian nationalism developed later than Zionism and in response to it does not in any way diminish its legitimacy. All nationalisms arise in opposition to some "other". Why else would there be a need to specify who you are? In Europe, Zionism was defined by its opposition to the different European nationalisms emerging and the anti-Semitism, but in the same way, it was defined by its opposition to the indigenous Palestinian population of the region. This can be seen in the Zionist slogans of "the conquest of labor" and "the conquest of land"... originating as a result of the confrontation with the Palestinian "other".
Just as it was with the Jews in Europe, it was inevitable that there would be a nationalism emerging among the population in Palestine, but that there would be a Palestinian nationalism was not. Before World War I, most of the Arab inhabitants of Palestine viewed themselves as Ottoman citizens (subjects before the 1850s). With the destruction of the Ottoman Empire after World War I, an Ottoman identity was no longer a viable option. Some, particularly the small number of educated elites, adopted Arab nationalism, as you mentioned. Other Arab inhabitants of Palestine viewed themselves as Syrians (Greater Syria). However, the mandates system divided the Arab world, also severing Palestine from Syria in the process, so neither of those nationalist options no longer proved practicable. What encouraged the emergence of a Palestinian nationalism was the confrontation with Zionism. Zionism/Zionist colonization presented the Palestinians with a problem that no other population in the Middle East faced... it was very different from what Iraq, Trans-Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon experienced under the British and French mandates. The British and French did not appropriate land, establish a rival and competing economy, or rival and competing political structures. Last but not least, mandatory rule was temporary, far from the permanent settlement program of the Zionists. This is why Palestinian nationalism took a much different route from let's say Syrian or Iraqi nationalism... meaning had it not been for Zionist colonization (European Jews colonizing Palestine), there would be a PALESTINE today.
J @ M @ L:
--- Quote from: I TO DA GEEZY on August 01, 2006, 01:54:32 PM ---That's why they rejected the Partition Plan (That granted them a country on the majority of the territory) while the Zionists accepted it?
--- End quote ---
LOL @ this guy.
30% of the population (Jews) given 55% of the land, while owning less than 10% of it at the time... LOL... it's not rocket-science. Put it this way, even within the land that the Jews were to be given, the Arabs would've been the majority there.
Ben Gurion gave them another reason to reject it:
"A partial Jewish State is not the end, but only the beginning. The establishment of such a Jewish state will serve as a means in our historical efforts to redeem the country in its entirety. ...We shall organize a modern defense force ..and then I am certain that we will not be prevented from settling in other parts of the country, either by mutual agreement with our Arab neighbors or by some other means... We will expel the Arabs and take their places .... with the force at our disposal."
...then a year later...
"I favor partition of the country because when we become a strong power after the establishment of the state, we will abolish partition and spread throughout all of Palestine."
...acted out in 1967.
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