Lifestyle > Train of Thought
Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
LooN3y:
im sorry, but can sum1 explain to this youngsta bout trinity???
Shallow:
--- Quote from: J @ M @ L on June 17, 2007, 10:26:47 PM ---
SHALLOW: You didn't prove anything. The most you're able to prove is that the Bible is contradicting itself, which I'll agree with. But Jesus still explicitly states that "My father is greater than I". It's logic: if A>B, A cannot in any way = B!
Also, I'm glad you pointed out John 14:24 for us - "He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.".... where Jesus once again admits that he is not God.
Now let's look further...
John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
(He admits that he can't do shit without God. Again, he's not God. God sent him)
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
(When something is given to you, that means it wasn't yours before that... Jesus had no power of his own until it was given to him... who gave it to him? GOD!)
--- End quote ---
What was I trying to prove? That equation to God is mentioned in the Gospels. I never subordination to God wasn't mentioned. I just said;
"There is no easy answer to this. Trying to make claims one way or another is a waste of time because they can be refuted by anyone that wants to figure out a way to refute them. Why even worry about his aspect? Honestly speaking if God were to refuse people who obeyed his words and loved his message because they worshipped the wrong way then I'd rather not be accepted."
Now tell me what I was trying to prove.
Maybe the book is contradictory, maybe the apostles couldn't grasp what Jesus was saying, maybe they chose to change it, maybe much is lost in the translation from Greek, maybe you are interpreting it wrong. Here is the thing; as a christian I believe Jesus was perfect. I don't believe the apostles were, or that the Bible is. If I find something wrong in the Bible (I've yet to find something morally wrong with Jesus' teachings.) I can dismiss it because it's just a book. But when I find something wrong with the perfect Quran, I dismiss the whole religion because apparently God wrote that book. And I can't believe God wants my wife to be subordinate to me (which is why I also dismiss St. Paul).
J @ M @ L:
I was talking about this when referring to the point you're trying to prove: "Jesus equates himself to the father here and you can't deny that."
And I just pointed out that he claims to be the same in purpose as God, not that he is God... I provided an example to show this:
John17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
He obviously doesn't mean that He, God, and all the disciples and people are part of ONE ENTITY... they're ONE IN PURPOSE.
That's all I was getting at.... as far as your views towards the religion are concerned, they make sense and I respect them... and I agree... there isn't anything wrong with Jesus' teachings... my whole argument is that Jesus never claimed to be God.
Shallow:
--- Quote from: J @ M @ L on June 18, 2007, 12:18:35 PM ---I was talking about this when referring to the point you're trying to prove: "Jesus equates himself to the father here and you can't deny that."
And I just pointed out that he claims to be the same in purpose as God, not that he is God... I provided an example to show this:
John17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
He obviously doesn't mean that He, God, and all the disciples and people are part of ONE ENTITY... they're ONE IN PURPOSE.
That's all I was getting at.... as far as your views towards the religion are concerned, they make sense and I respect them... and I agree... there isn't anything wrong with Jesus' teachings... my whole argument is that Jesus never claimed to be God.
--- End quote ---
Now the "obviously" is my only real issue. There is no "obviously" in the Bible when it comes to most things. If anything was obvious then they're wouldn't be so many rifts with in Christianty.
Yes he says the one who sent me is greater than me, but he also says if you have seen me you have seen the father. What all that means exactly is anyone's guess. You can spin it one way and I can spin it another. But you can't deny (not saying that you have) that Jesus puts himself and allows himself to be put above all men. When the gospels talk of apostles worshipping him they don't say that he stopped them from doing so. Now believing that the gospels were re-written is one thing and that's fine but when people claim that the gospels only view him as a normal man who is just another prophet and it was Paul that added to it they are wrong.
J @ M @ L:
--- Quote from: Shallow on June 18, 2007, 06:51:25 PM ---
--- Quote from: J @ M @ L on June 18, 2007, 12:18:35 PM ---I was talking about this when referring to the point you're trying to prove: "Jesus equates himself to the father here and you can't deny that."
And I just pointed out that he claims to be the same in purpose as God, not that he is God... I provided an example to show this:
John17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
He obviously doesn't mean that He, God, and all the disciples and people are part of ONE ENTITY... they're ONE IN PURPOSE.
That's all I was getting at.... as far as your views towards the religion are concerned, they make sense and I respect them... and I agree... there isn't anything wrong with Jesus' teachings... my whole argument is that Jesus never claimed to be God.
--- End quote ---
Now the "obviously" is my only real issue. There is no "obviously" in the Bible when it comes to most things. If anything was obvious then they're wouldn't be so many rifts with in Christianty.
Yes he says the one who sent me is greater than me, but he also says if you have seen me you have seen the father. What all that means exactly is anyone's guess. You can spin it one way and I can spin it another. But you can't deny (not saying that you have) that Jesus puts himself and allows himself to be put above all men. When the gospels talk of apostles worshipping him they don't say that he stopped them from doing so. Now believing that the gospels were re-written is one thing and that's fine but when people claim that the gospels only view him as a normal man who is just another prophet and it was Paul that added to it they are wrong.
--- End quote ---
So wait... the quote I put up, when he's talking about other people being "one" with him and God, he's talking about them being physically part of them? Although that makes ZERO sense, that would totally trash the Trinity theory because if all other people are part of it then it no longer is a "trinity" and there are millions of entities within one, rather than just three. Bro, you're not a dumb guy... some things may not be obvious, but this certainly is. The simple fact that he's even talking TO GOD should ring a bell in your head.
Jesus never claimed to be God. Jesus never claimed to be part of a trinity. Something as significant as that would surely have been explicitly stated, no?
You're right... he wasn't just a normal man... he was a prophet who performed miracles.... but guess what? He admitted that:
John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
edit: I wanted to point this out again...
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good-except God alone." (Mark 10:18)
Is that one obvious enough? It's about as straight-forward as it can get.... Jesus admits he is not GOD.
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