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Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
Shallow:
--- Quote from: J @ M @ L on June 18, 2007, 11:40:04 PM ---
--- Quote from: Shallow on June 18, 2007, 06:51:25 PM ---
--- Quote from: J @ M @ L on June 18, 2007, 12:18:35 PM ---I was talking about this when referring to the point you're trying to prove: "Jesus equates himself to the father here and you can't deny that."
And I just pointed out that he claims to be the same in purpose as God, not that he is God... I provided an example to show this:
John17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
He obviously doesn't mean that He, God, and all the disciples and people are part of ONE ENTITY... they're ONE IN PURPOSE.
That's all I was getting at.... as far as your views towards the religion are concerned, they make sense and I respect them... and I agree... there isn't anything wrong with Jesus' teachings... my whole argument is that Jesus never claimed to be God.
--- End quote ---
Now the "obviously" is my only real issue. There is no "obviously" in the Bible when it comes to most things. If anything was obvious then they're wouldn't be so many rifts with in Christianty.
Yes he says the one who sent me is greater than me, but he also says if you have seen me you have seen the father. What all that means exactly is anyone's guess. You can spin it one way and I can spin it another. But you can't deny (not saying that you have) that Jesus puts himself and allows himself to be put above all men. When the gospels talk of apostles worshipping him they don't say that he stopped them from doing so. Now believing that the gospels were re-written is one thing and that's fine but when people claim that the gospels only view him as a normal man who is just another prophet and it was Paul that added to it they are wrong.
--- End quote ---
So wait... the quote I put up, when he's talking about other people being "one" with him and God, he's talking about them being physically part of them? Although that makes ZERO sense, that would totally trash the Trinity theory because if all other people are part of it then it no longer is a "trinity" and there are millions of entities within one, rather than just three. Bro, you're not a dumb guy... some things may not be obvious, but this certainly is. The simple fact that he's even talking TO GOD should ring a bell in your head.
Jesus never claimed to be God. Jesus never claimed to be part of a trinity. Something as significant as that would surely have been explicitly stated, no?
You're right... he wasn't just a normal man... he was a prophet who performed miracles.... but guess what? He admitted that:
John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
edit: I wanted to point this out again...
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good-except God alone." (Mark 10:18)
Is that one obvious enough? It's about as straight-forward as it can get.... Jesus admits he is not GOD.
--- End quote ---
And what about quotes like "If you have seen me you have seen the father", or "Before Abraham, I am". John makes it clear what Jesus was in the beginning, the Word. Did John make this up? Why wouldn't he just make everything else up? You're being difficult and with out being insulting, you're acting stupid. The whole thing is a riddle and men smarter than you and I have dedicated their whole lives trying to figure it out and they can't come to an agreement. I'm not trying to convince that the trinity exists, I don't know. What I do know is there are times where Jesus equates himself to God, and there are times where he doesn't. He clearly puts himself above other prophets with his slaves to son comparison analogy. You can't say he was just a prohet with any more authority than I can say the Quran was just a book written by some arab warlord. You aren't even acceoting hte other side. Yes, maybe they contradict each other but why do you ignore the side that opposes your view and accept the side that supports it as fact?
I don't have a clear stance on this issue, so how can you tell me I'm wrong?
J @ M @ L:
1. Jesus explicitly states he is not God, but nowhere does he explicitly state that he is.
2. I didn't say you were "wrong". You said a certain line was not obvious, so I posted up more that were.
3. I'm not simply accepting the side that supports my view, and ignoring the side that doesn't. So far I've been given 2 quotes that go against my argument, and I've provided the context for both to show why they do not refute my argument. On the other hand, I've provided I don't even know how many examples to prove my argument.
4. I already provided the context/explanation for "If you have seen me you have seen the father"; as for "Before Abraham, I am"... I'll point these out:
Jeremiah 1:4 "Now the word of the Lord came to me saying,
5 ‘Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.' "
Proverbs 8:23 "Ages ago I was set up at the first, before the beginning of the earth.
24When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water,
25Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth;
26before he had made the earth with its fields, or the first of the dust of the world
27When he established the heavens, I was there."
Job 38:4 "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding... "
Job 38:21 "You Know, for you were born then, and the number of your days is great!"
5. And since you brought up John... let's take a look at this:
HERE'S JESUS TELLING THE JEWS THAT JOHN = ELIAS (WHO IS SUPPOSED TO APPEAR BEFORE THE ARRIVAL OF THE MESSIAH)
Matthew 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
HERE THE JEWS ASK JOHN IF HE IS INDEED ELIAS:
John 1:19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
NOW MY QUESTION IS.... IS JESUS A LIAR? OR IS JOHN A LIAR? ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE, ONE OF THEM HAS TO BE.
Shallow:
--- Quote from: J @ M @ L on June 19, 2007, 10:35:45 AM ---1. Jesus explicitly states he is not God, but nowhere does he explicitly state that he is.
2. I didn't say you were "wrong". You said a certain line was not obvious, so I posted up more that were.
3. I'm not simply accepting the side that supports my view, and ignoring the side that doesn't. So far I've been given 2 quotes that go against my argument, and I've provided the context for both to show why they do not refute my argument. On the other hand, I've provided I don't even know how many examples to prove my argument.
4. I already provided the context/explanation for "If you have seen me you have seen the father"; as for "Before Abraham, I am"... I'll point these out:
Jeremiah 1:4 "Now the word of the Lord came to me saying,
5 ‘Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.' "
Proverbs 8:23 "Ages ago I was set up at the first, before the beginning of the earth.
24When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water,
25Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth;
26before he had made the earth with its fields, or the first of the dust of the world
27When he established the heavens, I was there."
^ that's Solomon speaking.... is he God too?
Job 38:4 "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding... "
Job 38:21 "You Know, for you were born then, and the number of your days is great!"
5. And since you brought up John... let's take a look at this:
HERE'S JESUS TELLING THE JEWS THAT JOHN = ELIAS (WHO IS SUPPOSED TO APPEAR BEFORE THE ARRIVAL OF THE MESSIAH)
Matthew 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
HERE THE JEWS ASK JOHN IF HE IS INDEED ELIAS:
John 1:19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
NOW MY QUESTION IS.... IS JESUS A LIAR? OR IS JOHN A LIAR? ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE, ONE OF THEM HAS TO BE.
--- End quote ---
I'm going to answer your last question with what has been my stance from the beginning; I don't know.
I didn't mean the line by itself wasn't obvious. I meant the whole set of gospels comibined nothing is obvious. You ask an athiest and it's obvious that it's all allegory. You ask a catholic and it's obvious that it's historical documentation. That's what I meant. One lines mean nothing. I can pick a line out of a translation of the Quran that sayd "you may scourge her" with regards to your wiife. Could I say it's obvious that according to the Quran Allah disrespects women?
I never denied that there are passages in the gospel that imply Jesus was nothing more than a prophet, but there are also passages that imply otherwise, like Jesus allowing people to worship him. And the parable of the vineyard separating the son from the sllaves sent by the Father.
Seriously man, how stupid do you think people really are. If it were plain as day that Jesus never equated himself to anything higher thyan just another prophet that billions of people throughout thousands of years would just follow. And the millions of people that dedicated their lives to studying it over the past couple thousand years would just not be able to see it?
J @ M @ L:
I'm simply putting forth my argument. I have presented several examples where Jesus explicitly states that he is not God.... where it's obvious to anybody... yes the Gospels as a whole may not make it so obvious because as you say "there are other parts that IMPLY he was more than just a prophet". I agree... there are phrases that may lead people to assume that, and those verses have been brought up in the thread... however none of them make it obvious, none of them show Jesus explicitly stating it... if the Gospels are full of contradictions as a whole, and as a whole cannot make a significant point such as Jesus being God obvious... fine... I don't need anybody to show that the Gospels as a whole prove it, but ONE VERSE... I'm asking those opposing my argument to show me proof of Jesus saying "I am God".... just one phrase where it's made obvious... I provided several phrases where it's obvious that he isn't.
I'm not here to say "How can Christians be so dumb?"... this thread/discussion has nothing to do with me believing that millions of people are stupid... there is a topic at hand, and I'm making my case... I'm simply asking for some evidence from those opposing my view... nobody has been able to show me anything... all I hear is "well your examples may be obvious but there are other places that make it not so obvious"... as for people not being able to see it, there are Christians (Unitarians) who don't accept Jesus as God, and agree that he was a prophet like those before him. I'm not here trying to act like I'm the first person ever to discover this.... it has been discussed for over 1000 years...
edit: Here is another example of people who study this and dedicate their lives to this changing their minds...
LONDON: More then half of England's Anglican bishops say Christians are not obliged to believe that Jesus Christ was God, according to survey published today.
The poll of 31 of England's 39 bishops shows that many of them think that Christ's miracles, the virgin birth and the resurrection might not have happened exactly as described in the Bible.
Only 11 of the bishops insisted that Christians must regard Christ as both God and man, while 19 said it was sufficient to regard Jesus as "God's supreme agent". One declined to give a definite opinion.
The poll was carried out by London Weekend Television's weekly religion show, Credo.
"DAILY NEWS" 25/6/84
I actually find it quite astonishing that the most important, central, and fundamental aspect of the religion is not even clear.... I mean your salvation depends on it... you must believe that Jesus must die as a God (since one man cannot carry the burden of the world's sins)... yet now they're not sure if Jesus was God... and for the 3 days and 3 nights that Jesus was "dead"... who was controlling the universe?
Facez:
Jesus wasn't the son of God just because he didn't have a father, he is the son of God because he is the only begotten son of God (son because God created him and sent him down from heaven)
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
We are not all sons of God it is only by faith in Christ Jesus that we become sons because of the blood of Jesus notice how we become sons of God not Begotten sons of god
Galatians 3:26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, (27) for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ
Which means that we only become sons of God BECAUSE WE HAVE PUT ON/HAVE BEEN CLOTHED IN CHRIST not because we are all the same as Christ
Why is it so hard to understand that Jesus wasn't a full man (born of a man and woman) He was just the flesh side and God was the spirit. They called Jesus a man because that is what they could physically could see, a man Just because they didn't call him God in that scripture doesn't mean he isn't. God was inside this flesh suit (Jesus) therefore making Jesus, God. The flesh side is why he cried ,prayed to god referred to him as father (and had to be circumcised). The spirit side (God) is the reason why he performed miracles, knew what people were thinking, disappeared out of peoples sight. Every other prophet was born of Man and woman (and had flesh side and a human spirit) and were filled with the Holy spirit to carry out miracles . Jesus came from Heaven already and had God inside of him.
Read this maybe this will clear it up (remember Jesus = "the word") and also remember this as u are reading john 1:1-14
john 8:12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
John 1:1-14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (2)He was with God in the beginning.
(3)Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. (4) In him was life, and that life was the light of men. (5)The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
(6)There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. (7)He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. (8)He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. (9)The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
(10)He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. (11)He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. (12)Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— (13)children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
15John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' " 16From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.
Why do you think that it took Jesus to redeem us of sin why did God just use Moses, Noah, Abraham, these were righteous men. God used Jesus because he needed a human body (to represent us) (because lamb, goats weren't enough to redeem man of sin) in order to enter the world and redeem us. This body had to be clean (free of sin ) and that was only possible by God entering a man. A full man (born of man and woman) couldn't do it by himself because man is born a sinner (he is bound to sin). God needed a body that he could control from birth.
You also notice how it says in John 1:12 god has given the right to become children of God when you believe in his name (have faith in him)
if you look at John 10:30 Jesus calls them "Gods" but the he says
(36) what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world
Jesus wasn't like the other men because it says God set him apart as his very own
John 17:21 has no relevance in this, this scripture is completely different here he is talking about unity, like the father and him are unified. In this scripture he is just talking about unity, its doesn prove that God wasn't in Jesus.
ok now on to john10:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.
people in those days would of never of meant "My Lord and MY God" to mean "oh MY God" this is disallowed because this is using the Lords name in vain. Even I never say "oh my God"
Deuteronomy 5:11 You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain
It said Thomas "answered and said unto him" Jesus, said to him "MY lord AND My God"
Thomas called him "My Lord" because he has done it before, he called Jesus "God" because Jesus had revealed to Him earlier that HE was God I will prove both of these in one passage
John 14:5 Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"
(6)Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (7)If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
(8)Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
(9) Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? (10) Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, LIVING IN ME, who is doing his work. (11)Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.
Can you see Jesus said he is in the father and the father is in him and that if you have see Jesus you have seen the father, the father is LITERALLY in him
with the John 5:7 scripture, The reason why they put that bit in there (God the Word and the Holy ghost all of them are one) is because it makes sense and it is based on what is written in 1john 5:8 the spirit water and the blood
The spirit = God because john 4:24 says God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."
The water = Jesus which = the word (just read john 1-14 again). How do I know the water equals Jesus because
John 4:9 The Samaritan woman said to him, "You are a Jew and I am a Samaritan woman. How can you ask me for a drink?" (For Jews do not associate with Samaritans.)
10Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water."
11"Sir," the woman said, "you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water? 12Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his flocks and herds?"
13Jesus answered, "Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."
Jesus asks the Samaritan woman for a drink (literally) the woman says he is a jew and shes is only a Samaritan. The "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water"
Blood = holy spirit/ghost.
Why? because of the bible priciple the spirit is the life and the life is in the blood
John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[a] and they are life.
So the spirit gives life
In Leviticus 17:11
For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.
Genesis 9:6 Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made man.
Now 1 John 5:6 makes more sense when it talks about Jesus
(6)This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
He did not come by water only (the word) but by water and blood (spirit). If it was talking about water and blood literally why would it need to tell us that he did not come by water only but by water and blood.
And it is the spirit who testifies this the spirit meaning God. If it was talking about Jesus' own spirit it wouldn't of needed to say "the spirit"
And John scripture isn't the only scripture that confirms the trinity Matthew 28:19 (which I have quoted before) does
Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Realise how Jesus said "NAME" of the father son and holy spirit and not "NAMES" wouldn't it be blasphemous for Jesus to include him and the holy spirit if they all weren't one
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30This is the one I meant when I said, 'A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.'
John 14:25-26 All this I have spoken while still with you. (26)But the Counsellor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
As for john 11:41 & john 5:30 like I said before Jesus had a flesh side (human side) and because of that he had to pray to God and: praise him, ask him for things. Remember God wasn't just in him, god is in heaven also. Power from God was given to his flesh so that he was able to perform miracles,
As for Matthew 28:18 I really don't see your point. God gave him Jesus power so what? God gave him the flesh side power to do miracles when God entered him because God is the power. If God wasn't in Jesus then he couldn't of done his miracles. I think that your trying to imply that Jesus was a mere man who was given power by God like Moses but no because he had the power to being with. Jesus was saying that God inside of him is giving his flesh side power.
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