Lifestyle > Train of Thought
Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
Facez:
LOL Hey JAMAL Proverbs 8:25 is what happens when you take scriptures out of context. You need to read the whole thing
In Proverbs 8 David is not talking about himself. he has devoted the whole "proverbs 8" passage to wisdom. He anthromorphizes it and makes it seem like a woman
Proverbs 8:1-25
Wisdom's Call
1 Does not wisdom call out?
Does not understanding raise her voice?
2 On the heights along the way,
where the paths meet, she takes her stand;
3 beside the gates leading into the city,
at the entrances, she cries aloud:
4 "To you, O men, I call out;
I raise my voice to all mankind.
5 You who are simple, gain prudence;
you who are foolish, gain understanding.
6 Listen, for I have worthy things to say;
I open my lips to speak what is right.
7 My mouth speaks what is true,
for my lips detest wickedness.
8 All the words of my mouth are just;
none of them is crooked or perverse.
9 To the discerning all of them are right;
they are faultless to those who have knowledge.
10 Choose my instruction instead of silver,
knowledge rather than choice gold,
11 for wisdom is more precious than rubies,
and nothing you desire can compare with her.
12 "I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence;
I possess knowledge and discretion.
13 To fear the LORD is to hate evil;
I hate pride and arrogance,
evil behavior and perverse speech.
14 Counsel and sound judgment are mine;
I have understanding and power.
15 By me kings reign
and rulers make laws that are just;
16 by me princes govern,
and all nobles who rule on earth.
17 I love those who love me,
and those who seek me find me.
18 With me are riches and honor,
enduring wealth and prosperity.
19 My fruit is better than fine gold;
what I yield surpasses choice silver.
20 I walk in the way of righteousness,
along the paths of justice,
21 bestowing wealth on those who love me
and making their treasuries full.
22 "The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
i agree with what shallow wrote in his last pargraph
J @ M @ L:
1. You say he is the son of God, then turn around and say that he is God. Can I be myself and at the same time be my father? It's nonsense.
2. As for his miracles, Jesus admits that of his own he can do nothing and that he does what he does through the power of God. That doesn't make him God.
descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
3. In regards to Jesus redeeming us of sin: Muslims don't believe that we're all guilty of sin for what Adam & Eve did. Just like when your grandpa commits a murder, you can't go to jail for it... we don't believe that Jesus died for our sins.... nor do we believe that God would kill his own son (or himself?lol) for what Adam & Eve did. If you want to get into other discussions we can, but for now let's stick to Jesus = God.
4. In regards to John 10:36
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Jesus is telling them that they were told they're Gods so why are they giving him shit for referring to himself as the Son of God.... NOT GOD. Just because God set him apart doesn't mean Jesus is God. Look at your wording: "God set him apart". You're referring to 2 separate entities.
5. John 17:21 does have relevance... Jesus says the same thing about the father being in him and him being in the father... but as soon as you realize that he makes the same statement about "them" being one as him and God are one... you dismiss it and say "well this time he's talking about unity, but the other times he's referring to him and God being one entity"... stop picking and choosing, he's saying the exact same thing... so either everyone is part of this entity or nobody is.
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
6. Now you choose to say that in John 14:11 he meant it literally... when Jesus himself admits that (John 5:30 "I can of mine own self do nothing as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.")... God sent him, he could've said God is inside of me and it is the non-flesh part of me that's doing this... look:
Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know
- he is a MAN.
- approved of God
- miracles and wonders and signs, which GOD DID BY HIM.
God used Jesus as a tool... this is what Jesus meant by him and God having the same purpose, him and God being one, God being in him,...Jesus was not God.
7. 1 John 5:7 WAS TAKEN OUT OF THE BIBLE AS A FABRICATION, A LIE, BULLSHIT, WHATEVER YOU WANNA CALL IT
8. Matthew 28:19 doesn't show Jesus claiming to be God. The verse just shows the author pointing out that all three are to be mentioned during the baptism... that's because before baptism was only in Christ/Jesus (Galatians 3:27, 1 Corinthians 1:13, Acts 8:16, 19:5)
9. As for the "Before Abraham, I am" and related quotes, I already addressed that with other examples of prophets claiming to have "been" before.
10. God giving Jesus powers doesn't make Jesus God.
- Jesus admitted that he doesn't know when the Day of Judgment is, and that ONLY GOD KNOWS. I mean if God were inside him, wouldn't he know?
Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
- God is All-Knowing. If Jesus were God, wouldn't he know when figs are in season, instead of getting pissed off when there are no figs on the tree? LOL
Mark 11:12 And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry:
13 And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.
14 And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.
- His spirit GREW, and he GREW wiser. If the spirit of God was within him from the start as you say, then are you claiming that God is not perfect, since he had room to grow?
Luke 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
11. As for your last post... wisdom = the "word".
J @ M @ L:
--- Quote from: Facez on June 19, 2007, 03:57:40 PM ---i agree with what shallow wrote in his last pargraph
--- End quote ---
And here is my response to Shallow's last paragraph:
I'm not here to say "How can Christians be so dumb?"... this thread/discussion has nothing to do with me believing that millions of people are stupid... there is a topic at hand, and I'm making my case... I'm simply asking for some evidence from those opposing my view... nobody has been able to show me anything... all I hear is "well your examples may be obvious but there are other places that make it not so obvious"... as for people not being able to see it, there are Christians (Unitarians) who don't accept Jesus as God, and agree that he was a prophet like those before him. I'm not here trying to act like I'm the first person ever to discover this.... it has been discussed for over 1000 years...
edit: Here is another example of people who study this and dedicate their lives to this changing their minds...
LONDON: More then half of England's Anglican bishops say Christians are not obliged to believe that Jesus Christ was God, according to survey published today.
The poll of 31 of England's 39 bishops shows that many of them think that Christ's miracles, the virgin birth and the resurrection might not have happened exactly as described in the Bible.
Only 11 of the bishops insisted that Christians must regard Christ as both God and man, while 19 said it was sufficient to regard Jesus as "God's supreme agent". One declined to give a definite opinion.
The poll was carried out by London Weekend Television's weekly religion show, Credo.
"DAILY NEWS" 25/6/84
I actually find it quite astonishing that the most important, central, and fundamental aspect of the religion is not even clear.... I mean your salvation depends on it... you must believe that Jesus must die as a God (since one man cannot carry the burden of the world's sins)... yet now they're not sure if Jesus was God... and for the 3 days and 3 nights that Jesus was "dead"... who was controlling the universe?
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I'm not pulling this out of my ass... this has been discussed for over 1000 years... and even amongst Christians like yourself, people are coming to the conclusion that Jesus was not God. It is common for there to be minor differences within a religion... but something this significant? The central aspect of the religion?
J @ M @ L:
And let me ask you this, Facez:
Do you believe the Bible has mistakes?
Do you believe the Bible contradicts itself?
If not, then why are there revised versions coming out every several years where they decide to take certain verses out of the Bible, and consider them fabrications?
And, the same thing I've been asking for from the beginning: Show me 1 verse in the entire Bible... just 1 line... where JESUS SAYS "I AM GOD". I can show you plenty where he says he isn't... I ask for one where he says he is...
Shallow:
"Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing My day; he saw it and was glad." "You are not yet 50 years old," they said to Him, "and you have seen Abraham?" "I tell you the truth," Jesus announced, "before Abraham was, I AM!"
That's a direct reference to how God described himself in the old testament and Jesus says it the same way.
Just because that slave trading murderous fuck Solomon said similar things doesn't change what Jesus said right there.
Would just a prophet says this
60Then the high priest stood up before them and asked Jesus, "Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?" 61But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer.
Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ,[f] the Son of the Blessed One?"
62"I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
63The high priest tore his clothes. "Why do we need any more witnesses?" he asked. 64"You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?"
And this is all from the dirty English version. If you could read Greek like I can there are other parts that aren't as unclear when it comes to claiming a higher power. It just gets lost in the translation.
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