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I can only speak for myself, but churches and religion are emotionally wrecking. They force human beings into unnecessary submission and keep the masses oppressed. Just thinking of an institution that forces that upon their people, drives me sick. The world would be a better place if people started believing in philosophy instead of the common religious doctrines that wipe away personal judgement. "It was written, therefore it is" is some of the foulest stuff ever thought of.Yes, we all need morality and mental strength, but you definately don't need religion for that. Not to down anyone with religious beliefs, but that's just my take. With that being said, yes I really do care about religion. I strongly disapprove of it.
Quote from: QuietTruth on July 06, 2007, 05:22:20 PMBut honestly, even when you don't want to go to church, but go anyways, when you get out of that place you always feel good. And sorry there's no denying that. Everybody, no matter what religion you are, everybody leaves church either happy or with a smile on.Wrong.I can only speak for myself, but churches and religion are emotionally wrecking. They force human beings into unnecessary submission and keep the masses oppressed. Just thinking of an institution that forces that upon their people, drives me sick. The world would be a better place if people started believing in philosophy instead of the common religious doctrines that wipe away personal judgement. "It was written, therefore it is" is some of the foulest stuff ever thought of.Yes, we all need morality and mental strength, but you definately don't need religion for that. Not to down anyone with religious beliefs, but that's just my take. With that being said, yes I really do care about religion. I strongly disapprove of it.
But honestly, even when you don't want to go to church, but go anyways, when you get out of that place you always feel good. And sorry there's no denying that. Everybody, no matter what religion you are, everybody leaves church either happy or with a smile on.
What force? You don't like a church you can just walk out and never go back. No one is forcing you into anything. I hate it when people try and equate it to oppression.
You want to talk oppression look no further than our current "democracies". We're forced to live in countries where if you want chamge you must vote for PEOPLE to lead us with out having any real say or vote in any actual decisions ourselves. Then these elitest communists and 1 term kings tax us for our labour, and monopolize most life necessities. They teach us what they deem proper in schools creating a large mass of mindless drones whose survival is dependant on these monsters. And if you want to avoid their system your chances of any kind of success are slim to none. The church can't keep you from getting into heaven or what have you, they can't keep you from being happy or spiritual. You can do what you want in any way you want, spiritually. You go and try to become a doctor or lawyer with out doing it the exact way the government wants you to do it and see how possible that is. The fact is that you could become as good a doctor as anyone by simply becoming an apprentice to a doctor but go try and become one like that. No you are FORCED to go through a sanctioned elementary curriculum, FORCED to attend undergrad studies at an accredited university, FORCED to go through a med school, and FORCED to get a license. Explain to me how in a small town for instance the current doctor couldn't just pick 5 or 6 of the brightest kids in their early teens have them study him, and teach them what does, and as the years go buy the kids with less interest get filtered out and the one that does the best takes over as the new doctor when he or she is of age, and not create as capable as doctor as anyone coming out of med school. You know what would happen if a doctor did this and succeeded? He'd lose his license, get charged, fined, maybe even sentenced. The kid who is now a qualified doctor would not be recognized as such and any attempt to help someone sick or dieing would be a crime. Don't talk to me about emotionally wrecking or unnecessary submission.
Quote from: Shallow on July 09, 2007, 07:33:32 AMWhat force? You don't like a church you can just walk out and never go back. No one is forcing you into anything. I hate it when people try and equate it to oppression.That is exactly my problem: it gives people an illusion of freedom. Do you realize people are born into a religion, and that if it weren't for their upbringing (disposable cultural influences, pedagogically forced upon them) nobody on this earth would be religious, simply because there is no rationality behind the whole concept? They make you pray at the mercy of some sort of almighty being that is supposed to tell you at judgement day whether you've been a good person or not.... Anyone with a decent set of brains knows that there is no such thing as good or evil. They are empty words, were it not for the fact that these doctrines force a certain meaning upon them. Now you try and give me a rational, objective meaning of the word "good". It doesn't exist.
Quote from: Shallow on July 09, 2007, 07:33:32 AMYou want to talk oppression look no further than our current "democracies". We're forced to live in countries where if you want chamge you must vote for PEOPLE to lead us with out having any real say or vote in any actual decisions ourselves. Then these elitest communists and 1 term kings tax us for our labour, and monopolize most life necessities. They teach us what they deem proper in schools creating a large mass of mindless drones whose survival is dependant on these monsters. And if you want to avoid their system your chances of any kind of success are slim to none. The church can't keep you from getting into heaven or what have you, they can't keep you from being happy or spiritual. You can do what you want in any way you want, spiritually. You go and try to become a doctor or lawyer with out doing it the exact way the government wants you to do it and see how possible that is. The fact is that you could become as good a doctor as anyone by simply becoming an apprentice to a doctor but go try and become one like that. No you are FORCED to go through a sanctioned elementary curriculum, FORCED to attend undergrad studies at an accredited university, FORCED to go through a med school, and FORCED to get a license. Explain to me how in a small town for instance the current doctor couldn't just pick 5 or 6 of the brightest kids in their early teens have them study him, and teach them what does, and as the years go buy the kids with less interest get filtered out and the one that does the best takes over as the new doctor when he or she is of age, and not create as capable as doctor as anyone coming out of med school. You know what would happen if a doctor did this and succeeded? He'd lose his license, get charged, fined, maybe even sentenced. The kid who is now a qualified doctor would not be recognized as such and any attempt to help someone sick or dieing would be a crime. Don't talk to me about emotionally wrecking or unnecessary submission.Well, I never was fond of this whole concept of pseudo-democracy (the aristocratic type that is... or in fact any kind of democracy). This western concept of pseudo-democracy is far from ideal, but if you ask me, it is the best type of government currently in existance. For that reason, I wouldn't want to live elsewhere. Thing is, it's easy to choose a country to live in. You can emigrate all you want, if you expect to find a better place elsewhere. That's what makes it hard to compare politics to religion, because while politics is a system you live in, religion is something that becomes part of you. You try and escape the morality that's been eating its way into your personality for years. You won't find an escape, just like your ancestors didn't. And even if you do, it'll most likely be a switch from the catholic church to protestantism, for example. Those that do manage to abandon their ties to the church, are left permanently scarred. That's what society feeds off. That's what makes the morality of ones culture. That's what still shapes you, even if you do leave the church behind. I guess what they say is true, God is nowhere and everywhere at the same time.
Your example of a doctor is really unfitting if you ask me. Democratic governments do little but (claiming to be) protecting their citizens. The same thing goes for hospitals: if you need medical care, you want it done right. The degrees a student needs before he can become a doctor, provide the evidence that your doctor knows what he's talking about. The government simply protects you from being taken care of by a quack without knowing it. You can still see a quack-doctor if you like, but he won't be allowed to claim a certified title anymore. He can still heal people, and as long as they know the type of deal they enter, they're not allowed to sue him either. What's your problem with that?
Back to the subject though; religion forces social doctrines upon people, whereas atheists would at least bother with rationality. Whether or not rationality is a good thing, that's a philosophical question. I think it's vital, because all ratio comes from realistic observations of life. That's opposed to the whole concept of religion.Once again, I don't mean to bash on anyone religious, I'm just sharing my viewpoint. The necessity of rationality is debatable; therefore so is the essence of religion (or atheism at that).(Props btw)
Agnostics are lazy.
no