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.:DaYg0sTyLz:.:

--- Quote from: Antonio on June 14, 2009, 11:17:33 PM ---
--- Quote from: M Dogg on June 14, 2009, 10:11:33 PM ---
--- Quote from: .:DaYg0sTyLz:. on June 14, 2009, 09:46:48 PM ---
--- Quote from: el creepo on June 14, 2009, 09:31:51 PM ---^  I disagree in a sense

7 over 6 would do it, in my opinion

but until he even gets 6, he shouldn't be mentioned in front of Jordan

5 still won't be enough, he needs 6 or 7 to even argue about the 2 players

7 is insane though, I think that would say somethin.. ya know?

--- End quote ---

I get what youre saying. I just think there are SO many factors to being an all time great. Kobe will, without a doubt, go down as one of the best all time players. This is the reason I dont see Kobe ever surpassing Jordan.  When Jordan was in the league, there were a ton of great players before him. There was Magic, Bird, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Dr J, etc...etc.  BUT, in the midst of his career...there was already no doubt that he was the best ever.  You KNEW you were watching the best player ever. There was hardly any debate against it.  Kobe, being in the later part of his career, is still trying to prove he is the best Laker ever.

--- End quote ---

what you have is someone who's in position to pass Jordan, and it wasn't until Jordan's comeback that you truly knew he was the greatest. In the first 3 peat, you saw greatness, and people put him up there with the greats, but there was a ton of people that still argued Russell or Magic was the greatest, that Wilt was more dominate or that Larry Bird had that will. What Jordan did in the second 3 peat was rest all doubts, and in the decline of his career, he continued to dominate everyone, he was more dominate that a young Shaq, he had more will to win than anyone else in NBA history, and his leadership skills were so far advance that only Magic Johnson could have had the loyalty Jordan had. Jordan put to rest everythingi in his second comeback. He retires striking out in minor league baseball, his one of the all time greats, but his not the greatest, that's for debate.

Muhammad Ali called himself the greatest. But until he beat George Foreman, and showed his will to win, he wasn't the greatest in peoples minds. His in the conversation with Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano, but his not the greatest. Kobe Bryant right now, is at the down slope of his career. He has 2 or 3 more prime years, and then it's that time were you hold on too long. Jordan originally retired at the age of 35, the time when most are in their twilight, but MJ was arguably still the best in the world, and proved it by winning titles. Kobe, if his to be in the conversation with MJ has to win. And win and win and win and win, and not only win, but beat Lebron James, beat the Celtics with KG and Pierce, beat the Magic with Superman, beat everyone put in his way, because the only way he can even be looked at MJ's level is by stepping up, and showing that will to win. He does not have to be at his physical best, in fact when calling our GOATs, we don't look for that, it seems people look for who can do it for a long period of time and who can do it even when their knees give out, and they should be bed ridden with the flu and when they are against someone younger and more physically dominating than them. I say this, if Kobe wins 3 more titles, and beats LeBron for at least the last one, and retires, we'll look at it as Muhammad beating Foreman, and Kobe goes out the GOAT. If Kobe loses to Lebron, we'll look at it as Magic losing to MJ, and the passing of the torch and Kobe goes with West, Magic, Russell, Wilt, and all the others in that argument over second best.

--- End quote ---

--- End quote ---

My point was, that Jordan was a special case. A RARE case in any sport.  In our lifetime we havent seen it in baseball, or football.  The only other sport WE'VE seen it in, is golf with Tiger Woods.  At this point in Jordans career, it was already known that he was the greatest. In a sport with such a long history (like any of out major sports), for someone to be truly recognized as the greatest (with little to no debate about it), they will have to be the clear cut greatest while they are still in the prime of their career. They cant be fighting for their place in history towards the end of their careers. The reason Jordan is the greatest still, is because we ALL knew he was the best ever far before his career was over. The reason we know Tiger will go down as the greatest golfer ever, is because its already evident far before his career is over.  There havent been any other athletes in US sports that you can say that about in our lifetime so far.  Even Ali did not have that status DURING his career.

M Dogg™:

--- Quote from: .:DaYg0sTyLz:. on June 14, 2009, 11:37:51 PM ---
--- Quote from: Antonio on June 14, 2009, 11:17:33 PM ---
--- Quote from: M Dogg on June 14, 2009, 10:11:33 PM ---
--- Quote from: .:DaYg0sTyLz:. on June 14, 2009, 09:46:48 PM ---
--- Quote from: el creepo on June 14, 2009, 09:31:51 PM ---^  I disagree in a sense

7 over 6 would do it, in my opinion

but until he even gets 6, he shouldn't be mentioned in front of Jordan

5 still won't be enough, he needs 6 or 7 to even argue about the 2 players

7 is insane though, I think that would say somethin.. ya know?

--- End quote ---

I get what youre saying. I just think there are SO many factors to being an all time great. Kobe will, without a doubt, go down as one of the best all time players. This is the reason I dont see Kobe ever surpassing Jordan.  When Jordan was in the league, there were a ton of great players before him. There was Magic, Bird, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Dr J, etc...etc.  BUT, in the midst of his career...there was already no doubt that he was the best ever.  You KNEW you were watching the best player ever. There was hardly any debate against it.  Kobe, being in the later part of his career, is still trying to prove he is the best Laker ever.

--- End quote ---

what you have is someone who's in position to pass Jordan, and it wasn't until Jordan's comeback that you truly knew he was the greatest. In the first 3 peat, you saw greatness, and people put him up there with the greats, but there was a ton of people that still argued Russell or Magic was the greatest, that Wilt was more dominate or that Larry Bird had that will. What Jordan did in the second 3 peat was rest all doubts, and in the decline of his career, he continued to dominate everyone, he was more dominate that a young Shaq, he had more will to win than anyone else in NBA history, and his leadership skills were so far advance that only Magic Johnson could have had the loyalty Jordan had. Jordan put to rest everythingi in his second comeback. He retires striking out in minor league baseball, his one of the all time greats, but his not the greatest, that's for debate.

Muhammad Ali called himself the greatest. But until he beat George Foreman, and showed his will to win, he wasn't the greatest in peoples minds. His in the conversation with Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano, but his not the greatest. Kobe Bryant right now, is at the down slope of his career. He has 2 or 3 more prime years, and then it's that time were you hold on too long. Jordan originally retired at the age of 35, the time when most are in their twilight, but MJ was arguably still the best in the world, and proved it by winning titles. Kobe, if his to be in the conversation with MJ has to win. And win and win and win and win, and not only win, but beat Lebron James, beat the Celtics with KG and Pierce, beat the Magic with Superman, beat everyone put in his way, because the only way he can even be looked at MJ's level is by stepping up, and showing that will to win. He does not have to be at his physical best, in fact when calling our GOATs, we don't look for that, it seems people look for who can do it for a long period of time and who can do it even when their knees give out, and they should be bed ridden with the flu and when they are against someone younger and more physically dominating than them. I say this, if Kobe wins 3 more titles, and beats LeBron for at least the last one, and retires, we'll look at it as Muhammad beating Foreman, and Kobe goes out the GOAT. If Kobe loses to Lebron, we'll look at it as Magic losing to MJ, and the passing of the torch and Kobe goes with West, Magic, Russell, Wilt, and all the others in that argument over second best.

--- End quote ---

--- End quote ---

My point was, that Jordan was a special case. A RARE case in any sport.  In our lifetime we havent seen it in baseball, or football.  The only other sport WE'VE seen it in, is golf with Tiger Woods.  At this point in Jordans career, it was already known that he was the greatest. In a sport with such a long history (like any of out major sports), for someone to be truly recognized as the greatest (with little to no debate about it), they will have to be the clear cut greatest while they are still in the prime of their career. They cant be fighting for their place in history towards the end of their careers. The reason Jordan is the greatest still, is because we ALL knew he was the best ever far before his career was over. The reason we know Tiger will go down as the greatest golfer ever, is because its already evident far before his career is over.  There havent been any other athletes in US sports that you can say that about in our lifetime so far.  Even Ali did not have that status DURING his career.

--- End quote ---

Lets just say this, the marking behind Jordan was that we called him the greatest without him proving it. Many basketball insiders were deferring to other players. If our lasting memory of Jordan was this



Jordan doesn't go out the GOAT, we don't have two 3 peats to talk about and all is what ifs. BUT Jordan did comeback, and it's leaving the game like this



It's picture perfect, we get everyone saying his the greatest of all time and you can't argue it because it's perfect.

The reason Michael was called the greatest because we knew he can win titles at will, we knew that barring a horrible knee injury, he'd get more titles than Magic, Bird and everyone else, you can argue that minus the baseball deal he'd have almost as many as Bill Russell and we can live with that argument, so we called Jordan the greatest. What cemented his legacy was the 1995-1996 season. 72 wins, breaking the Laker's record, and winning the NBA title for the 4th time. That's when it became clear Michael Jordan was the best player to ever play. Before that, he was the best of the era, one of the greatest, but not the greatest, but in 1996, that was the proof people needed, MJ is the GOAT. He was 33 years old at that time.

Kobe is 30 now, and no one has seen a player like him since Jordan. His only problem, he followed Jordan, we even have video of a young Kobe vs. Jordan. LMAO at Shaq saving Kobe from a huge embarrassment with the goal tend.

http://www.youtube.com/v/HvJywRV9P0w&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x5d1719&color2=0xcd311b

So it's harder to say Kobe>Jordan. But like Ali, Kobe will have to prove it. But as I said, he win 3 more titles, beat Lebron and retires on top, he'll prove something. IF Kobe wins 2 more titles, but then loses to Lebron, people will say the torch is passed, and Kobe's role will be great player that Lebron beat for his legacy, and Kobe goes in with Magic, West, Russell, Wilt and all the other over who is second best.

Now_Im_Not_Banned:

--- Quote from: Don Jacob on June 14, 2009, 10:00:54 PM ---i see where someone could include the intangibles about jordan , he generated billions into the economy, but i think 3 champiionships (7) CAN put him over jordan....let's face it, kobe is just as good as jordan offensively , that has ALWAYS been the case. defensively you can make the argument, both have the same tendancies to suffocate or collapse on the perimeter. but the intangibles and wins...is what will separate them.



--- End quote ---


Jordan didn't even have to work that hard defensively, cuz Pippen was the teams defensive-stopper...he was assigned the opposing teams best player every single time. Pippen was THE best perimeter defender in the league at that time, and Jordan would typically be his help on D. We've seen Kobe when he plays lock down D, and he can shut down ANYONE on the perimeter.


Kobe=GOAT...theres nothing that Jordan coulda done that Kobe cant. The biggest difference in their skillset is that Kobe has more range and a better jumpshot...thats the biggest difference. we can argue all day about this, but when Kobe wins his next 3, yall will see what's really real. 8)




....and when Jon Barry is praising Kobe and the Lakers, you KNOW that shit must be real talk. LOL

Now_Im_Not_Banned:

--- Quote from: .:DaYg0sTyLz:. on June 14, 2009, 10:35:54 PM ---
--- Quote from: Don Jacob on June 14, 2009, 10:00:54 PM ---i see where someone could include the intangibles about jordan , he generated billions into the economy, but i think 3 champiionships (7) CAN put him over jordan....let's face it, kobe is just as good as jordan offensively , that has ALWAYS been the case. defensively you can make the argument, both have the same tendancies to suffocate or collapse on the perimeter. but the intangibles and wins...is what will separate them.



--- End quote ---

Jordan was definetely a better defender, cant really argue for Kobe on that. And the intangibles are not limited to Jordans effect on the economy lol  The respect he had around the league/world. Also the fact that Jordan on the court was nothing less then awe-inspiring. Fans and opponents were in awe of Jordan.  Kobe doesnt inspire that same kind of reaction.  Kobe losing in the finals twice doesnt help.  With Jordan, you always had the feeling he would win...that he wouldnt allow himself to lose (once in his prime). Kobe lost two finals in his prime.  A very good Celtics team but Kobe had a very good Laker team that simply got crushed. Allso a Pistons team that was not unstoppable as the Spurs beat the exact same team the following year.  I dont think its impossible for a player to ever pass Jordan, but Kobe cant be that guy. It just wont happen. Its going to take someone who isnt fighting for his place in history towards the end of his career. It will have to be someone who looks to be the best ever, halfway through it.

--- End quote ---


LOL...again. Jordan was not defensively assigned the toughest player on the opposing team ala Kobe, because he had Pippen as a top-notch defender to defend alongside. when he exerts himself, there is nothing Kobe cant do on D that Jordan can. come on, now.

Now_Im_Not_Banned:

--- Quote from: .:DaYg0sTyLz:. on June 15, 2009, 03:43:59 PM --- Jordan on the court was nothing less then awe-inspiring. Fans and opponents were in awe of Jordan.  Kobe doesnt inspire that same kind of reaction.


--- End quote ---


LOLLLL...greatest hater quote of all time.

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