Lifestyle > Sports & Entertainment
John Barry just said...
Shallow:
This whole greatest ever thing is so stupid. You can't compare eras, and every era has a "is he the best ever?" guy in every sport. The true test comes years later when that player still gets mentioned. But even then, different time, different training, different styles; they don't match up. Who would Tiger Woods be if Nicklaus never existed? Would a young Jack be able to beat a current Tiger time and again in today's game? Would Tiger of today be able to play in the 60s with the old clubs? What kind of player would Kobe or Jordan have been in the 50s when most moves weren't around yet to learn on the ball court? Rod Laver may not be able to match up with Federer on grass today, but how would Federer do with one of those heavy clunky rackets weighing him down, and those old style running shoes and no specialized training? The whole argument is a big joke. How can anyone ever prove that Ali would be able to beat Louis, or Klitchko?
You can argue who the best of their time was and you can see who gets remembered, but you can only do that when enough time has passed to call it remembering. And even then it doesn't mean shit. No one remembers Ty Cobb like they should, for political reasons. If he was a nice guy he may have been bigger than the Babe in today's sports pages. The MLB certainly thought he was better when they gave him more votes in the first ever HOF for Baseball.
M Dogg™:
The whole greatest argument is great, you know why.... 'cause in this boards opinion means SHIT! Barbershops, water coolers, internet threads. Fans can have this conversation, it'll take up time and at the end of the day, you can't prove shit. Ali vs Tyson, Kobe vs. MJ, Nolan Ryan vs. Babe Ruth, better coach Red or Phil, Dr. J in a dunk off with Dominic Wilkins, Sugar Ray Robinson vs. Sugar Ray Leonard, '80's 49ers driving last minute in the 70's Steelers for the win, Tiger vs Nicklaus. This are never going to happen, but they bring debate, people want to have an opinion, and fans will argue with a passion for their team, their fighter. NIK will argue for the Gold and Forum Blue, Hack will defend his Yankees, I will go with Ali no matter what, it's just what it is. And it can be a message board, barbershop or water coolers at work (I don't have a water cooler... haha) but this is what fans do.
Shallow:
--- Quote from: M Dogg on June 16, 2009, 08:52:47 PM ---The whole greatest argument is great, you know why.... 'cause in this boards opinion means SHIT! Barbershops, water coolers, internet threads. Fans can have this conversation, it'll take up time and at the end of the day, you can't prove shit. Ali vs Tyson, Kobe vs. MJ, Nolan Ryan vs. Babe Ruth, better coach Red or Phil, Dr. J in a dunk off with Dominic Wilkins, Sugar Ray Robinson vs. Sugar Ray Leonard, '80's 49ers driving last minute in the 70's Steelers for the win, Tiger vs Nicklaus. This are never going to happen, but they bring debate, people want to have an opinion, and fans will argue with a passion for their team, their fighter. NIK will argue for the Gold and Forum Blue, Hack will defend his Yankees, I will go with Ali no matter what, it's just what it is. And it can be a message board, barbershop or water coolers at work (I don't have a water cooler... haha) but this is what fans do.
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I can get caught up in it too but in the end I never take it too seriously. I honestly have no clue how Rocky Marciano would if plucked out of his time and put in to today's boxing scene. I don't know who'd had more majors if Jack and Tiger played at the same time. Or what kind of player MJ would have been in 1965.
The problem I have is when people outside the venue of basic bullshitting take their opinions home with them and actually believe in them as fact. Don't know why it bothers me. It just does.
M Dogg™:
--- Quote from: Shallow on June 16, 2009, 09:16:10 PM ---
--- Quote from: M Dogg on June 16, 2009, 08:52:47 PM ---The whole greatest argument is great, you know why.... 'cause in this boards opinion means SHIT! Barbershops, water coolers, internet threads. Fans can have this conversation, it'll take up time and at the end of the day, you can't prove shit. Ali vs Tyson, Kobe vs. MJ, Nolan Ryan vs. Babe Ruth, better coach Red or Phil, Dr. J in a dunk off with Dominic Wilkins, Sugar Ray Robinson vs. Sugar Ray Leonard, '80's 49ers driving last minute in the 70's Steelers for the win, Tiger vs Nicklaus. This are never going to happen, but they bring debate, people want to have an opinion, and fans will argue with a passion for their team, their fighter. NIK will argue for the Gold and Forum Blue, Hack will defend his Yankees, I will go with Ali no matter what, it's just what it is. And it can be a message board, barbershop or water coolers at work (I don't have a water cooler... haha) but this is what fans do.
--- End quote ---
I can get caught up in it too but in the end I never take it too seriously. I honestly have no clue how Rocky Marciano would if plucked out of his time and put in to today's boxing scene. I don't know who'd had more majors if Jack and Tiger played at the same time. Or what kind of player MJ would have been in 1965.
The problem I have is when people outside the venue of basic bullshitting take their opinions home with them and actually believe in them as fact. Don't know why it bothers me. It just does.
--- End quote ---
'cause you have sense and most people don't. it is what it is.
.:DaYg0sTyLz:.:
--- Quote from: M Dogg on June 15, 2009, 12:30:24 AM ---
--- Quote from: .:DaYg0sTyLz:. on June 14, 2009, 11:37:51 PM ---
--- Quote from: Antonio on June 14, 2009, 11:17:33 PM ---
--- Quote from: M Dogg on June 14, 2009, 10:11:33 PM ---
--- Quote from: .:DaYg0sTyLz:. on June 14, 2009, 09:46:48 PM ---
--- Quote from: el creepo on June 14, 2009, 09:31:51 PM ---^ I disagree in a sense
7 over 6 would do it, in my opinion
but until he even gets 6, he shouldn't be mentioned in front of Jordan
5 still won't be enough, he needs 6 or 7 to even argue about the 2 players
7 is insane though, I think that would say somethin.. ya know?
--- End quote ---
I get what youre saying. I just think there are SO many factors to being an all time great. Kobe will, without a doubt, go down as one of the best all time players. This is the reason I dont see Kobe ever surpassing Jordan. When Jordan was in the league, there were a ton of great players before him. There was Magic, Bird, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Dr J, etc...etc. BUT, in the midst of his career...there was already no doubt that he was the best ever. You KNEW you were watching the best player ever. There was hardly any debate against it. Kobe, being in the later part of his career, is still trying to prove he is the best Laker ever.
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what you have is someone who's in position to pass Jordan, and it wasn't until Jordan's comeback that you truly knew he was the greatest. In the first 3 peat, you saw greatness, and people put him up there with the greats, but there was a ton of people that still argued Russell or Magic was the greatest, that Wilt was more dominate or that Larry Bird had that will. What Jordan did in the second 3 peat was rest all doubts, and in the decline of his career, he continued to dominate everyone, he was more dominate that a young Shaq, he had more will to win than anyone else in NBA history, and his leadership skills were so far advance that only Magic Johnson could have had the loyalty Jordan had. Jordan put to rest everythingi in his second comeback. He retires striking out in minor league baseball, his one of the all time greats, but his not the greatest, that's for debate.
Muhammad Ali called himself the greatest. But until he beat George Foreman, and showed his will to win, he wasn't the greatest in peoples minds. His in the conversation with Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano, but his not the greatest. Kobe Bryant right now, is at the down slope of his career. He has 2 or 3 more prime years, and then it's that time were you hold on too long. Jordan originally retired at the age of 35, the time when most are in their twilight, but MJ was arguably still the best in the world, and proved it by winning titles. Kobe, if his to be in the conversation with MJ has to win. And win and win and win and win, and not only win, but beat Lebron James, beat the Celtics with KG and Pierce, beat the Magic with Superman, beat everyone put in his way, because the only way he can even be looked at MJ's level is by stepping up, and showing that will to win. He does not have to be at his physical best, in fact when calling our GOATs, we don't look for that, it seems people look for who can do it for a long period of time and who can do it even when their knees give out, and they should be bed ridden with the flu and when they are against someone younger and more physically dominating than them. I say this, if Kobe wins 3 more titles, and beats LeBron for at least the last one, and retires, we'll look at it as Muhammad beating Foreman, and Kobe goes out the GOAT. If Kobe loses to Lebron, we'll look at it as Magic losing to MJ, and the passing of the torch and Kobe goes with West, Magic, Russell, Wilt, and all the others in that argument over second best.
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My point was, that Jordan was a special case. A RARE case in any sport. In our lifetime we havent seen it in baseball, or football. The only other sport WE'VE seen it in, is golf with Tiger Woods. At this point in Jordans career, it was already known that he was the greatest. In a sport with such a long history (like any of out major sports), for someone to be truly recognized as the greatest (with little to no debate about it), they will have to be the clear cut greatest while they are still in the prime of their career. They cant be fighting for their place in history towards the end of their careers. The reason Jordan is the greatest still, is because we ALL knew he was the best ever far before his career was over. The reason we know Tiger will go down as the greatest golfer ever, is because its already evident far before his career is over. There havent been any other athletes in US sports that you can say that about in our lifetime so far. Even Ali did not have that status DURING his career.
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Lets just say this, the marking behind Jordan was that we called him the greatest without him proving it. Many basketball insiders were deferring to other players. If our lasting memory of Jordan was this
Jordan doesn't go out the GOAT, we don't have two 3 peats to talk about and all is what ifs. BUT Jordan did comeback, and it's leaving the game like this
It's picture perfect, we get everyone saying his the greatest of all time and you can't argue it because it's perfect.
The reason Michael was called the greatest because we knew he can win titles at will, we knew that barring a horrible knee injury, he'd get more titles than Magic, Bird and everyone else, you can argue that minus the baseball deal he'd have almost as many as Bill Russell and we can live with that argument, so we called Jordan the greatest. What cemented his legacy was the 1995-1996 season. 72 wins, breaking the Laker's record, and winning the NBA title for the 4th time. That's when it became clear Michael Jordan was the best player to ever play. Before that, he was the best of the era, one of the greatest, but not the greatest, but in 1996, that was the proof people needed, MJ is the GOAT. He was 33 years old at that time.
Kobe is 30 now, and no one has seen a player like him since Jordan. His only problem, he followed Jordan, we even have video of a young Kobe vs. Jordan. LMAO at Shaq saving Kobe from a huge embarrassment with the goal tend.
http://www.youtube.com/v/HvJywRV9P0w&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x5d1719&color2=0xcd311b
So it's harder to say Kobe>Jordan. But like Ali, Kobe will have to prove it. But as I said, he win 3 more titles, beat Lebron and retires on top, he'll prove something. IF Kobe wins 2 more titles, but then loses to Lebron, people will say the torch is passed, and Kobe's role will be great player that Lebron beat for his legacy, and Kobe goes in with Magic, West, Russell, Wilt and all the other over who is second best.
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So I was listening to AM 570 (official Laker station, so NIK dont call them haters lol) earlier tonight, and they were going over the greatest players of all time. They read a top ten published by (cant remember who exactly), that gave the top 1,000 NBA players all time. Jordan was number 1, of course. Kareem number 2, cant remember everyone else on the list. But Duncan was 8, Shaq was 9.....and Kobe was....well, lets just say, not in the top 10. I believe he was at 13. Not much argument against that coming from the Laker station lol. In fact, it seems like most of the top 10 lists out there (you gotta be careful cus some are just random idiots giving their opinion) dont have Kobe in the top 10 all time. Out of active players, only Duncan and Shaq are regulars in most of the top ten lists out there. Now Im not saying Kobe isnt a top 10 player, when its all said and done I think he will be. Just interesting that it seems most people dont think he is as of now. And we have people on here saying he's better then Jordan lol. Good shit guys, keep the comedy rolling...
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